What do you want from the professionals?

ZoZo

ZoZo

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I am not interested in battles and fights, I have a business to run, but I am also happy to share my knowledge, for free, even though I run workshops for money. So it would be really useful to know, do those of you new/newer/amateurs/aspiring professionals actually want to know what things are like from a professional perspective, as it would appear that whenever a professional shares their experiences, particularly in relation to weddings, attacks start to happen.

As I say, I'm just not interested in that line, so if all that people want is the fight I know not to bother to share on anything at all to do with weddings. But if there are those of you that are interested, maybe you could let us know if you are after the professional perspective?

Any help and guidance from those that seek advice, rather than from those who are not professionals who dish out the advice, would be gratefully received so that I can ensure that I am not part of the unpleasantness that I have no desire to part of.

TIA
Zoe
 
ZoZo said:
I am not interested in battles and fights, I have a business to run, but I am also happy to share my knowledge, for free, even though I run workshops for money. So it would be really useful to know, do those of you new/newer/amateurs/aspiring professionals actually want to know what things are like from a professional perspective, as it would appear that whenever a professional shares their experiences, particularly in relation to weddings, attacks start to happen.

As I say, I'm just not interested in that line, so if all that people want is the fight I know not to bother to share on anything at all to do with weddings. But if there are those of you that are interested, maybe you could let us know if you are after the professional perspective?

Any help and guidance from those that seek advice, rather than from those who are not professionals who dish out the advice, would be gratefully received so that I can ensure that I am not part of the unpleasantness that I have no desire to part of.

TIA
Zoe
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Interesting question... I do laugh at some of the reactions on here to constructive criticism or genuine advice, but some people give it in a poor way or rude way. You have just given me some good feedback on a model shoot that I did that I found very insightful and useful. I'm very experienced in some areas, but not that one. Thanks, please do keep it up from my perspective.
 
Whilst I see where you are coming from Zoe, I don't think you can ask members not to give advice if they are not a 'professional'.

I am glad that 'pros' give knowledge and hope it continues. After all, this forum is a great marketing tool for the 'pros', networking without leaving home.
 
What I would expect as a rank amature? Honest advice that does take into account the level of my ability. However, I think respecting advice from more experienced amatures is also needed, as they may have kit more akin to my poor collection!

Anyways Zoe, you all ways give good honest advice from your perspective! I think the problem we have is that egos of both pros and amatures get a bit rubbed up the wrong way some time and thats when the confrontations happen!

I would like to say thanks to everyone who has helped me though, whatever they may consider themselves!
 
Well I think that is jolly decent of you Zoe, and personally thank you for the offer :clap:

I'm very passionate about my photography, and like MANY others I'm sure, would love to go pro one day.
I'm at my happiest when I'm out and about with my friends shooting.
A recent trip to Scotland with some togging pals was me 101% in my element!
Again recently spent some time with my little girl in a pals up and coming studio and LOVED every second.

One thing that worries me is, if I were doing it every day for a living, would I still enjoy it? Would I want to go out shooting for fun on a 'day off'?

Do you still enjoy photography, or is it 'just a job' now?

Many thanks, Andy (y)
 
ZoZo said:
do those of you new/newer/amateurs/aspiring professionals actually want to know what things are like from a professional perspective,
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Not especially which is why I rarely read Talk Business.

I'm happiest reading about and looking at photos - whether someone is getting paid for taking them is, for the things I'm interested in, irrelevant.

But then I've no interest in shooting weddings.
 
I'm going to be frank, I joined TP to learn more, to better my images, to be more comfortable with my camera and to talk with other "camera geeks".

Nothing more, nothing less.

Within the past 10 months (length of time I've had my DSLR) my images have improved dramatically.

I don't think whether someone is pro or not, really matters to be honest, you can get amazing amateurs and crappy pros, in all walks of life and business.
I seldomly read the business section, because I don't have and probably never will have a photography business. If I did aspire to be a pro and it was a realistic aspiration, I'd read and post there alot.
 
tiler65 said:
Whilst I see where you are coming from Zoe, I don't think you can ask members not to give advice if they are not a 'professional'.

I am glad that 'pros' give knowledge and hope it continues. After all, this forum is a great marketing tool for the 'pros', networking without leaving home.
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Sorry, I'm not suggesting others shouldn't answer the questions asked if they're not pros, but I don't want to be involved in fights because being professional means that some people think I am patronising or arrogant - if I know something, I'll share it, and I enjoy a good debate, but not arguments. I have absolutely no desire to be involved in arguments, publicly or privately. They are unhelpful, unprofessional and time consuming, seldom resulting in a positive outcome.

I simply want to establish if people find it useful hearing the responses of pros, particularly in respect to weddings, as this seems an area where inevitably lots of people think they can do it, and we who work in the industry know how hard it is to do it well. But if sharing that knowledge causes arguments, well, is it really worth even sharing our knowledge?

I ask this for a healthy debate and nothing more or less. My apologies if it came across otherwise.
Z
 
MagicMynx said:
I don't think whether someone is pro or not, really matters to be honest, you can get amazing amateurs and crappy pros, in all walks of life and business.
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amen to that :)
 
Whilst I wholly agree about not needing a pro to give advice..
What the pros can give us is the knowledge of experience, something that they have learnt over a period of time and can advise how to learn from thier mistakes etc etc..

How to best do a workflow... because they have had years of trying different methods.
 
andy_fozzy said:
Well I think that is jolly decent of you Zoe, and personally thank you for the offer :clap:

I'm very passionate about my photography, and like MANY others I'm sure, would love to go pro one day.
I'm at my happiest when I'm out and about with my friends shooting.
A recent trip to Scotland with some togging pals was me 101% in my element!
Again recently spent some time with my little girl in a pals up and coming studio and LOVED every second.

One thing that worries me is, if I were doing it every day for a living, would I still enjoy it? Would I want to go out shooting for fun on a 'day off'?

Do you still enjoy photography, or is it 'just a job' now?

Many thanks, Andy (y)
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I love every day of it! And even though I earn a 10th of what I used to earn in paid employment I have never been happier, my relationship with my husband and daughter has never been better, and everything in life is pretty damned amazing! I consider myself to be one of life's extraordinarily fortunate people!
Z
 
ZoZo said:
Sorry, I'm not suggesting others shouldn't answer the questions asked if they're not pros, but I don't want to be involved in fights because being professional means that some people think I am patronising or arrogant - if I know something, I'll share it, and I enjoy a good debate, but not arguments. I have absolutely no desire to be involved in arguments, publicly or privately. They are unhelpful, unprofessional and time consuming, seldom resulting in a positive outcome.

I simply want to establish if people find it useful hearing the responses of pros, particularly in respect to weddings, as this seems an area where inevitably lots of people think they can do it, and we who work in the industry know how hard it is to do it well. But if sharing that knowledge causes arguments, well, is it really worth even sharing our knowledge?

I ask this for a healthy debate and nothing more or less. My apologies if it came across otherwise.
Z
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Still an interesting question... the thing that makes some threads de-generate to a mess is when people want to hammer home their opinions (pro or amateur). There are normally enough responses to a question for the OP to get what they want without people posting their particular point of view to many times.
 
As someone who aspires to be a "pro" either part time or full time I find it extremely helpful reading about the experiences of others and any advice they can give is invaluable to me.

Please don't stop! (y)
 
If you stop and think about it for a moment there are not too many of the wedding pros on here who offer much in the way of advice any more.

I take the view now that if people genuinely want to improve then it's very much up to them to go and fiind the routes to do that.

What you are left with is a bunch of "nice pics" comments where if I was to post what I really though you'd have me burnt at the stake!

It's really not doing anyone any favours though because if someone then goes off and joins one of the organisations and start posting there or entering for qualification then they are going to fall flat on their face. (but everyone on TP liked it! so why am I getting ripped to pieces?)

Don't get me wrong here, I'm certainly not the world's best photographer, I make no claim to be brilliant but I have worked very hard to get to a standard that is at least marketable. I'll continue to work my socks off but the reality for me is that those routes are best found elsewhere.
 
i'd agree with others that sometimes the answers given by professionals are very condescending however i suppose you've no benchmark for how intelligent the person you're speaking to is.

not sure what i'd like to see tbh, more on really creative studio lighting i suppose and probably off camera flash
 
Ok, I very rarely post on here, but after reading Zoe's post, I just want to say something.

I am very fortunate in that I have done a couple of Zoe's courses and what I will say is that they are very well run, & very informative.

I have nothing to gain from saying this, I would just like to share my thoughts, Zoe really does know what she is saying, take away any emotion you have with a photograph you have taken, read what she says in her critique, and you will see it all makes perfect sense.

If you don't like what is said, chances are you are too emotionally involved with the picture, she is very rarely wrong! This in itself is dammed annoying!

Keep up the critiques Zoe, you’re doing a Stirling job!
 
WBJ said:
Ok, I very rarely post on here, but after reading Zoe's post, I just want to say something.

I am very fortunate in that I have done a couple of Zoe's courses and what I will say is that they are very well run, & very informative.

I have nothing to gain from saying this, I would just like to share my thoughts, Zoe really does know what she is saying, take away any emotion you have with a photograph you have taken, read what she says in her critique, and you will see it all makes perfect sense.

If you don't like what is said, chances are you are too emotionally involved with the picture, she is very rarely wrong! This in itself is dammed annoying!

Keep up the critiques Zoe, you’re doing a Stirling job!
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I think that's a key statement - even though we 'know' who the pro's are on here, we don't get to see first-hand what it is about them that makes them 'professional' - and it's nothing to do with image-quality per se...
It has more to do with a professional attitude to the business of image-making for a particular niche or client-group and the successful marketing of those images, rather than just being 'good at taking pictures'...

So maybe when you see a good wedding photo and think "well I could have taken that" - well...maybe you could, if you were plonked down at that precise location at that precise time with subjects who are willing to put themselves under your control. But could you do all the leg-work involved getting you there?

What some of the Professionals bring to this forum is the benefit of years in the industry and the knowledge of what works and what doesn't.

I had another of 'those' moments yesterday in a studio seminar.
We'd set up a pair of young girls in a high-key set-up and the result was to my mind, horrible cheesy and I said so...
And was firmly told off and rightly so:
"But it sells!" - and when you're in the business of putting food on the table you can't afford to be too precious about the work that puts it there.

You might not like the advice that's being given, but these people know what works and what doesn't. If you choose to ignore that salient fact then you might still be a great photographer some day, but you'll not be a great professional photographer.
 
Keep doing what you are doing Zoe. Just take into consideration not everyone will like to here what you say for one reason or another. But others will, including me.
 
ZoZo said:
I consider myself to be one of life's extraordinarily fortunate people!
Z
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Same here Zoe :) Thankfully, it's a little harder to get in to my area of photography - sports. I don't feel at all threatened by someone posting pictures of their Sunday league team so am more than happy to share my ideas and thoughts with them, and provide constructive help for them to make use of in the future.

In fact, 99% of the sports photographers who I work with (and are my direct competition) all sit and have a bit of a banter before/during/after a game and there is in 99% of cases not a bad word to be said about anyone :)

I can see why professional wedding photographers may get a bit edgy about things, but there is more often than not a gross over reaction!
 
purpleclouds said:
Same here Zoe :)
I can see why professional wedding photographers may get a bit edgy about things, but there is more often than not a gross over reaction!
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Thing is Phil, I find that all the wedding togs I know are extremely generous and quite lovely individuals but invariably there is the accusation thrown at anyone doing it that we are "protectionist" and just trying to put people off or put people down.

I've always tried to be honest and say that it's blooming hard work, I put in a lot of hours each and every week to try to make sure I am moving forward and that means with the business tasks as well as anything photographic. It's not easy but it is worth doing well, there are very few shortcuts and I'd much rather tell people that it is hard work and tell people that there are bits I struggle with. Album design is one area I struggle with while I find shooting boudoir an utter breeze. Others may find other areas suit them much better and each to their own.

I'd much rather shoot boudoir than sit on a cold touchline! :D
 
I take part in these forums to better my photography. I have to accept that my idea of a good photo will differ from others ideas. When ways to improve are given I accept that as constructive critiscism.

I think the fact that pro togs are willing to offer help and advice to amateurs is brilliant. We never stop learning.

I firmly believe that most wedding thread arguments start due to the pros being concerned about potential failure and spoiling the brides big day. It is meant in the best way but not always expressed so. Photographing a wedding is a huge responsibility and not to be taken lightly. I have done one wedding and was scared to death. My Sister-in-law wanted me to cover hers as a wedding present :eek: At that time I only had a Fuji bridge camera and was not happy about shooting it. I explained this and that I could not reshoot it if anything went wrong but they insisted I was good enough and it would be fine. As it happened the results were quite good and they were more than happy :D To get to that point I researched on the internet for the types of shot to take, etc and shot as many as I could to edit and get done as a photobook later.

Weddings are a big subject and I think from your point of view it is best to just answer the questions asked rather than trying to work out what people want to know blindly. Then politely pull out of the thread if it descends into an argument ;)

Another option is to produce a basic guide to wedding togging for the tutorial and guides section. Posibbly include the FAQ, common shots to get (Bride and father, getting ready, group, confetti, register, etc), types of lenses to use for different situations, insurance, what can go wrong. It will probably be quite difficult to aim at the right level though. Anybody that doesn't understand the basics of their camera and photography could be at serious risk of spoiling a wedding.

I'm not sure if that is much help to your original post Zoe or just me rambling :thinking:

Andy
 
chrisgeary said:
At what point is it time to get an accountant?
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As long as you put 35% of your earnings to one side and are ruthlessly meticulous in your paperwork trail, you should never need to hire an accountant...
It can be done by yourself quite easily...
 
AliB said:
Thing is Phil, I find that all the wedding togs I know are extremely generous and quite lovely individuals but invariably there is the accusation thrown at anyone doing it that we are "protectionist" and just trying to put people off or put people down.

I've always tried to be honest and say that it's blooming hard work, I put in a lot of hours each and every week to try to make sure I am moving forward and that means with the business tasks as well as anything photographic. It's not easy but it is worth doing well, there are very few shortcuts and I'd much rather tell people that it is hard work and tell people that there are bits I struggle with. Album design is one area I struggle with while I find shooting boudoir an utter breeze. Others may find other areas suit them much better and each to their own.

I'd much rather shoot boudoir than sit on a cold touchline! :D
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A cold touchline? There a quite a few photographers I know who are off on an all expenses paid + wages trip to South Africa for 5 weeks this Summer... ;) I'll have to make do with days on end sat out in the sun photographing cricket with free nosh and drinks :p (Yes, sat out in -4 in the middle of a blizzard at Port Vale kinda counteracts that though :LOL:)

I wasn't trying to say that I thought wedding photographers were nasty, twisted folk... to the contrary, those that I do know are the most friendly chaps out there! They have to be to be dealing with hundreds of people each and every weekend! But it is true to say that this forum has had it's fair share of keyboard warriors from both camps over it's time.. so it does exist to an extent.

I was just trying to point out that wedding photographers must be the hardest hit (along with portrait photographers perhaps?) with the tidal wave of cheaper and better quality cameras that have come on to the market since the digital revolution. Therefore I think they've a right to be a little edgy when someone comes along doing a wedding with a 300D and kit lens, and then not having a clue what to do with the pictures afterwards.. as you rightly point out, it's a lot more than just turning up and snapping away! :)
 
Arkady said:
As long as you put 35% of your earnings to one side and are ruthlessly meticulous in your paperwork trail, you should never need to hire an accountant...
It can be done by yourself quite easily...
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IME get an accountant straight away. Some people I know do their own, and they don't like accountants. Other people I know that do use an accountant, love accountants!

No hassle, no unexpected bills, and a thorough understanding of all the ins and outs of the law means my accountant saves me much more money than he charges me, so it's a no-brainer for me. Besides, I've got better things to do :)
 
purpleclouds said:
A cold touchline? There a quite a few photographers I know who are off on an all expenses paid + wages trip to South Africa for 5 weeks this Summer... ;)
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Hmmmmmmmm 5 weeks in South Africa.....I could be tempted :D
 
to keep sharing the how and the why you do things, I can pick the photography up from everyone on here but the business I follow several people whenever they talk about what they do to market organise and run their businesses.

These people save me from making mistakes, sure I still make mistakes but if you can learn from someone elses as well as yours you learn a lot faster.

I am very much indebted to those people and owe any of em that pop in a pint ;)
 
DDP said:
IME get an accountant straight away. Some people I know do their own, and they don't like accountants. Other people I know that do use an accountant, love accountants!

No hassle, no unexpected bills, and a thorough understanding of all the ins and outs of the law means my accountant saves me much more money than he charges me, so it's a no-brainer for me. Besides, I've got better things to do :)
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I'd agree - my wife and I are both finance professionals but we have an accountant. Our accountant has saved us more than she has billed us by knowing the extra bits and pieces we can claim that would never have occurred to us. Add in the time she saves us and the security of knowing you got it right (no nasty extra bills from the IR) and getting an accountant seems really important. After some time you might decide you can do it yourself, but when starting up in a new line of work you have enough things to worry about.
 
ZoZo said:
How's it going, do you need another tub yet? Got enough coke?
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It's not gone downhill as fast as I expected - time for a Hotdog yet :D

chrisgeary said:
At what point is it time to get an accountant?
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Before you start - then you can best decide (for tax etc.) what's the best way to set yourself up as a business. About a year later, and if you've made more than diddly-squat, you go see the accountant to see what he can do for you and if he can justify his fee by way of saving you time, hassle and - better still - money :)

DD
 
Interesting thread and quite a difficult one to answer to be honest! (I'll try to stay on topic) So here goes... my long term goal is to go pro! When first starting out the hardest thing I found was, not knowing what I needed to know! I'll answer from the stages I've gone through:

Initially I would post questions on various forums asking about the technical aspects of my camera and generally I would get mostly amateurs answering with good helpful hints and tips. As one of the members pointed out previously, there are numerous routes. I didn’t just use the forums. I read books, online guides, the manual and various magazines. (I am a geek!)

So I got out and practiced like mad - every opportunity.

Once I conquered the 'getting to know my camera' aspect of photography I started to read heavily on the so called 'photography rules' mainly around composition etc... I didn’t really post because I wasn’t brave enough for critique at that stage and I felt I could get what I needed from reading existing posts and critique of other images.

More recently I've started posting images for critique but I only post images of things I’m starting to learn or something I’m not sure on (pregnancy portraiture – as you know from your critique. ). I accept critique and love to receive the views from the pros - simply because you know what sells and what clients like!

People will use the forum for a variety of reasons, mine is to improve my photography, so Zoe and the other pros, please do continue to provide feedback – especially on weddings.

Just my thoughts…
 
I've dipped into this thread a couple of times today and I still can't stop laughing at the first 8 words in the opening post.

Classic!!
 
ryanyboy said:
I've dipped into this thread a couple of times today and I still can't stop laughing at the first 8 words in the opening post.

Classic!!
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It looks like a good debate to me, what's wrong?
 
ryanyboy said:
I've dipped into this thread a couple of times today and I still can't stop laughing at the first 8 words in the opening post.

Classic!!
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And your point is? :thinking:

Sorry, I really don't get what's funny about not wanting arguments and so asking for a healthy debate so that we can gain a level of understanding. :thinking:
 
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