What film camera for ICM?

[ChrisR]

I'm interested in doing some more intentional camera movement (ICM) stuff, as I found it fun and the results interesting. So far I've mostly been using my Pentax LX in aperture priority, fronted by the Vivitar 35-70 lens with a 5-stop filter on it (I also did some a couple of years ago with my little digital Fuji X10, but I'd only be interested in that as practice). The trouble with the Pentax, like all SLRs, is that the viewfinder blacks out while the mirror is up during the 1-2 second exposure. The good thing is that it will meter on the film and hold the shutter open for as many seconds as it takes to get enough light.

I've managed to cope with the blackout thing so far by working out the movement I want to make, practising it several times before taking the shot, then attempting to repeat the movement once the shutter is pressed. This is a bit awkward. So, I was trying to think, is there a better film camera for ICM?

At first I thought of rangefinders, as you can always see through the viewfinder while the shutter is open. However, they are expensive, and accuracy of focus is not really an issue with ICM. So a viewfinder camera with scale focus would be fine.

I think the key requirements are:

a) ability to see through the viewfinder while the shutter is open
b) ability to keep the shutter open for 1-4 seconds while moving the camera freely (preferably NOT having to keep B pressed)
c) ability to attach ND filters (eg a filter ring, but there may be other ways)
d) ideally, ability to meter with shutter times as above (either metered manual or aperture priority)
e) light, so easy to wave about (and also, 135 as there are many wasted shots)
f) not very expensive!

So far, I have not been able to find a viewfinder or rangefinder camera with these characteristics, but the F&C massive might well have better ideas! Thanks

 

[Manwithacam]

Canon EOS RT has a Pellicle mirror so it doesn't move.

 

[medwaygreen]

Buy a separate view finder and attach it to the flash mount.

 

[dmb]

Buy a separate view finder and attach it to the flash mount.

or make a mount for a smart phone and get a viewfinder app, hmm overkill perhaps.

 

[sirch]

I had the same thought as Richard but if you wanted to be even more "value conscious" you could probably make a simple wire-frame view finder

 

[soupdragon]

Does it even need a viewfinder if you are going to move the camera anyway?

 

[dmb]

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2823806

 

[ChrisR]

Canon EOS RT has a Pellicle mirror so it doesn't move.

Thanks, I didn't know about this. I'm not into the Canon ecosystem, but I guess I could wack one lens on it and go from there; everything else seems OK, except... it's definitely not light, 23 oz without lens according to something I read. I think I'd rule it out on that basis alone...

Buy a separate view finder and attach it to the flash mount.

or make a mount for a smart phone and get a viewfinder app, hmm overkill perhaps.

I had the same thought as Richard but if you wanted to be even more "value conscious" you could probably make a simple wire-frame view finder

A separate viewfinder is definitely a good idea. Not cheap, although I have found one at £30. Not sure I can really wrangle a wireframe version though. The smart phone option is interesting but I suspect too unwieldy. [EDIT: and smart phones can have a significant delay on the screen image which could be a problem...]

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2823806

That looks like printable instructions, rather than a thing I could actually buy!

 

[ChrisR]

Does it even need a viewfinder if you are going to move the camera anyway?

Fair point. Less important if I'm simply moving the camera vertically or horizontally, but if I want to make two separate movements in the same exposure, or rotate about a subject point, say, or point at something and change the zoom, perhaps followed by a move, I think it would help.

 

[lindsay]

Get a separate meter, cheap enough if necessary, and an old Brownie or similar?

 

[Manwithacam]

Something like the sport viewfinder Nikonos uses to frame a shot?

 

[dmb]

That looks like printable instructions, rather than a thing I could actually buy!

There might be someone not too far away trying out an even simpler design ( flatpack, some glue required, small envelope compatible) on his 3D Printer at the moment. Let you know how it comes out

 

[dmb]

Three parts - dry fitted - will need to be glued. 50mm front to back frame and 36x24mm opening at front. If my recollection of geometry is right that should match a 50mm lens.

 

[simon ess]

Looks like something you'd attach a Lancaster to.

 

[dmb]

Looks like something you'd attach a Lancaster to.

Same principle, perhaps I should credit Royal Aircraft Establishment in the design notes.

 

[dmb]

Been playing around with the CAD package. Meet version 2 of the dmb ICM finder with zoom. @ChrisR , do we have a guinea-pig?

 

[ChrisR]

View attachment 246446

Been playing around with the CAD package. Meet version 2 of the dmb ICM finder with zoom. @ChrisR , do we have a guinea-pig?

Oh yes, I'd definitely be a guinea pig for that, specially as I tend to use a nice 35-70 lens for ICM (apart from being a very useful all round lens, it's also the one my 5-stop ND filter fits!).

 

[Nod]

Dad use to use something similar many years ago to decide what camera and/or lens to use for a particular scene. I seem to remember that he used slide mounts for the front "element" and just the end of the rod/backbone against the bottom of his eye socket. Again IIRC, he had marked the backbone with mm measurements and would simply slide the front piece to achieve the framing he wanted and selected an FL to suit.

For Chris's use, the same principle would work, exactly as shown by David's CAD model above.

I like the idea of it being shoe mountable.

 

[ChrisR]

View attachment 246446

Been playing around with the CAD package. Meet version 2 of the dmb ICM finder with zoom. @ChrisR , do we have a guinea-pig?

Received this at the weekend, David, in a very fetching shade of purple! Didn't get much of a chance to look at it until today. It fits nicely onto the ME, and looks like it will be very useful. Not likely to be doing any ICM for a while as life's a bit hectic, but as soon as I do, I'll report back. Thanks very much!

 

[dmb]

I use purple for prototypes

 

[ChrisR]

Darn it! I wrote a long post here last night about my experience attempting to use your prototype external viewfinder, David, but forgot to press "Post reply"!

TLDR: with my eye to the external viewfinder attached to the (aperture-priority) Pentax ME, sufficient light gets in through the OVF and prism to upset the metering so it changes from a 2 second to a short exposure! I wondered about holding my thumb over the OVF, but given where my eye has to be, and the need to move and twist the camera, this isn't practical!

None of my "metered manual" cameras have a shutter time slower than 1 second. The ME will go to 8 seconds, and the LX on aperture priority will hold the shutter open for a couple of minutes (metered off the film).

So it's looking like this idea isn't going to work out. Thanks very much for trying it anyway, David.

 

[realspeed]

I honestly can't see any reason for spending load of money on expensive cameras and getting expensive sharp lenses to do ICM shots. Seems madness to me.

 

[Asha]

I honestly can't see any reason for spending load of money on expensive cameras and getting expensive sharp lenses to do ICM shots. Seems madness to me.

As Chris ( OP) knows, I think ICM is complete madness BUT he has chosen to have a go with film so good on him!

It appears that he's experiencing an obstacle or two though…….For me @ChrisR , he needs to go the whole hogg and try it using his Chroma 5x4 LF kit

 

[RaglanSurf]

How about a Lomo LCA? It has a shutter speed range of 2m to 1/500s.

I’ve got one you can borrow if you want to give it a try.

 

[Asha]

How about a Lomo LCA? It has a shutter speed range of 2m to 1/500s.

I’ve got one you can borrow if you want to give it a try.

Nahhh, ya' makin' it toooooo easy for him!

If I have to suffer knowing that a frusty and crusty colleague is attempting to shoot ICM and indeed put my eyesight at risk viewing his results ( I'm too curious!) then the whole process of obtaining the shot has got to be made as much of a challenge as possible for the OP

 

[excalibur2]

None of my "metered manual" cameras have a shutter time slower than 1 second. The ME will go to 8 seconds, and the LX on aperture priority will hold the shutter open for a couple of minutes (metered off the film).

The Ricoh KR-10 super will go to 16 secs and take Pentax lenses...mind you it jumps from 8 to 16 secs with no in between.
Seems a job for a Canon T90 for any speed up to 30 secs or a cheap way is the Canon EOS 300 AF set to manual also up to 30 secs

 

[stevelmx5]

Darn it! I wrote a long post here last night about my experience attempting to use your prototype external viewfinder, David, but forgot to press "Post reply"!

TLDR: with my eye to the external viewfinder attached to the (aperture-priority) Pentax ME, sufficient light gets in through the OVF and prism to upset the metering so it changes from a 2 second to a short exposure! I wondered about holding my thumb over the OVF, but given where my eye has to be, and the need to move and twist the camera, this isn't practical!

None of my "metered manual" cameras have a shutter time slower than 1 second. The ME will go to 8 seconds, and the LX on aperture priority will hold the shutter open for a couple of minutes (metered off the film).

So it's looking like this idea isn't going to work out. Thanks very much for trying it anyway, David.

Can't you shoot with manual exposure on the LX instead? That negates the issue of the meter being fooled then. Or, as above, just wave your Chroma around ;0)

 

[ancient_mariner]

What about a bit of tape over the viewfinder?

 

[ChrisR]

How about a Lomo LCA? It has a shutter speed range of 2m to 1/500s.

I’ve got one you can borrow if you want to give it a try.

It appears from Wikipedia that it's either a fixed shutter speed of 1/60 or automatic; in the latter case the "automatic exposure system compensates for changes in light levels after the shutter is opened by increasing or decreasing the shutter speed". (Sounds a bit like the LX but presumably less sophisticated; I'm guessing you wouldn't necessarily know how long the exposure was.) It would need ND filters, and from the (really ugly) image, I can't see any filter threads. Pity as it did look like a possibility for a few minutes there!

 

[ChrisR]

The Ricoh KR-10 super will go to 16 secs and take Pentax lenses...mind you it jumps from 8 to 16 secs with no in between.
Seems a job for a Canon T90 for any speed up to 30 secs or a cheap way is the Canon EOS 300 AF set to manual also up to 30 secs

I think if the shutter speed drops below about 2-4 seconds it would be hard to keep up a deliberate movement. Ignoring the T90 (naturally), the KR-10 Super does look interesting, thanks!

 

[ChrisR]

Can't you shoot with manual exposure on the LX instead? That negates the issue of the meter being fooled then. Or, as above, just wave your Chroma around ;0)

Yes, I probably does make more sense to use the LX. I was hoping to use a different camera, as the LX normally has a film in it (usually 400 ISO) for "proper" photography, which means I'd be waiting to finish the film to do some ICM... so if the recent roll with the ME works out, I may just try that again, with all its compromises. Not the Chroma...

 

[ChrisR]

What about a bit of tape over the viewfinder?

I thought about that, but I do like to know roughly what shutter speed the camera is selecting, which is only visible through the viewfinder.

 

[RaglanSurf]

It appears from Wikipedia that it's either a fixed shutter speed of 1/60 or automatic; in the latter case the "automatic exposure system compensates for changes in light levels after the shutter is opened by increasing or decreasing the shutter speed". (Sounds a bit like the LX but presumably less sophisticated; I'm guessing you wouldn't necessarily know how long the exposure was.) It would need ND filters, and from the (really ugly) image, I can't see any filter threads. Pity as it did look like a possibility for a few minutes there!

Yes I see your point, there is no filter thread unfortunately, I do remember there being some sort filter adapter but don’t know they’re readily available.

 

[ChrisR]

Looking at rangefinders, I found this image of the top plate of a Kiev 4 on Camerapedia, that seems to suggest it might go up to 4 seconds (although the precise meaning of the two concentric dials is beyond me!). However, elsewhere I've found suggestions that the shutter speed is 1/2 second and up. Anyone have any more information?

Edited because the idiot author forgot to link to the actual photo, sorry!

 

[StephenM]

The link doesn't work for me - I get to a page which requires me to log in to flickr to procede...

I assume that you've discounted the idea of using an accessory viewfinder in the accessory shoe of your camera?

 

[Asha]

The link doesn't work for me

Hmmm strange ...I can se the image

 

[ChrisR]

The link doesn't work for me - I get to a page which requires me to log in to flickr to procede...

I assume that you've discounted the idea of using an accessory viewfinder in the accessory shoe of your camera?

No idea why you need a flickr login, unless it's because it's a group page... I seem to be logged in to flickr by default, so can't really test it.

The little plastic gizmo that @dmb printed for me was in its way an accessory viewfinder. On the ME (aperture priority only), using it so far has caused short exposures, presumably from light getting into the actual viewfinder, affecting the meter.

 

[ChrisR]

Looking at rangefinders, I found this image of the top plate of a Kiev 4 on Camerapedia, that seems to suggest it might go up to 4 seconds (although the precise meaning of the two concentric dials is beyond me!). However, elsewhere I've found suggestions that the shutter speed is 1/2 second and up. Anyone have any more information?

Edited because the idiot author forgot to link to the actual photo, sorry!

What I really want is for an owner of a Kiev 4 to tell me what those dials actually mean!

 

[stevelmx5]

What I really want is for an owner of a Kiev 4 to tell me what those dials actually mean!

I used to shoot with a Kiev 4a and couldn’t remember that dial but have just realised that you’re looking at a 4 which has an exposure meter built in;

https://www.butkus.org/chinon/russian/kiev-4/kieva-a.htm

They’re just to set the non-coupled match needle meter. The camera goes down to 1/2 a second shutter speed.