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Agree, the paper is hardly impartial!!!!
and please use their services
What no jeremy cobyn thread?
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Agree, the paper is hardly impartial!!!!
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Link to TTIP information if people are still curious how badly it might effect the UK and National Health Service
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
And all these blacked out lines are what they do not want the European people in general to know (it will effect all the EU not just the UK)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ily-redacted-documents-released-10473601.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
And all these blacked out lines are what they do not want the European people in general to know (it will effect all the EU not just the UK)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ily-redacted-documents-released-10473601.html
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TTIP - 38 degrees are organising campaigns and information sessions against it. Sample here
https://home.38degrees.org.uk/2015/08/22/ttip-day-of-action-3/
https://home.38degrees.org.uk/2015/08/22/ttip-day-of-action-3/
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Ok, a story in the Guardian... left wing in the same way the DM is right wing...
So, and I don't mean to offend or upset anyone here... but we have equality laws in this country. Companies have to support disabled workers and make adjustments. Now, there are some disabilities or illness that means you cannot work, but many disabled people can work. You can't have it both ways. Firstly, how many 'disabled' are actually disabled? What i mean is like the people you read in the paper who are claiming disability but then refereeing a game at the weekend? A distant family member was claiming disability, and yes, there were certain jobs he could not do due to his hands, but there would be many jobs he could do.
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But seriously, when you're on deaths door with heart disease or cancer? Are you fit for work (scratch the surface, lots of people are found fit for work in their absence, by contractors keen to hit targets).
What you're referring to is fraud, and you get to find out about it, after they've been investigated and prosecuted. I thought we'd already established the difference between a genuine claimant and a fraudster, and we've discussed the actual numbers, and compared to tax evasion.
Do we think there are a significant number of tax evaders dying of government intervention in their lives?
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Shocking piece of journalism, but hey having lived and worked 7 years in Liverpool it doesn't surprise me.
woof woof
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During a previous Labour govt. there was a concerted efforg to get people off the unemployed figures and large numbers did indeed come off the unemployed register and straight on to long term sick. It's probably happened under other govt's and I've no doubt that it still happens to some degree to this day.
Moving on a little from the long term sick/disabled... There was a piece on the news that made me wince, 90% of construction workers on some project or other were immigrants.
Sadly there are large numbers of people in the UK who have no intention of working and I do mean sadly as I believe that working offers benefits beyond money. For some of those people being classified as unfit through disability is a Godsend and I obviously mean no disrespect to the genuinely disabled or otherwise unfit to work.
Again sadly I think that this is a serious problem and I can't see how large numbers of people could be persuaded to work as a life funded either in whole or in part by the state is so ingrained in many families and possibly throughout several generations as the preferred lifestyle that forcing a change may cause serious social unrest.
Back when I was working I saw new starters who were only there because they were forced to be and who had no intention of carving out a career or of putting in any effort at all. Some never lasted more than a month or so and often less. Recruiting quality people was a problem and often the best were immigrants.
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Some of the benefit situations are madness.
A lady local to me was 'unemployed' after her husband abandoned her and their 3 children for the woman he had been cheating with. He has got away with paying no child support at all and now has a new partner and 2 more children and still pays nothing for the first lot. Before becoming a full time mum she had been earning and paying tax on £30,000 per year. She had paid the majority payments on the monthly mortgage on their house as his income was lower than hers. When he left her it turned out he had run up all sorts of debts she did not know about, so she got nothing for the house she had been paying for for years and was left penniless.
My neighbour eventually got a job with a cleaning company as a cleaner - as she had not been employed for several years she could not find another post at the same level and was emotionally struggling with the pressure from the unemployment office, the divorce, the lack of child payments and that very few companies even bother to reply to applicants these days, which is demoralising in itself.
In desperation she cleaned at the local school. She worked for the cleaning company for 3 months, going to work 5 days a week all that time and during that time was paid nothing at all in wages. She literally had no money to feed her kids.
She contacted the employment and social offices to ask what to do. The employment people told her it was' nothing to do with' them any more despite them still recommending people apply to the cleaning company but that if she stopped going to work (for which she was receiving no money) she would probably be officially sacked for not turning up as required or at least be considered by the employment office to have 'voluntarily resigned'. Either way she would get no social security or housing benefit whatsoever as leaving the job would be 'self inflicted unemployment'.
The social security people gave her 1 set of 'food cards' which would not be repeated. She had to beg for these as no food for the kids or herself. She was told to collect them at a location that would require a 4 hour walk to obtain them. Lots of buses go that way, but she had no money to pay for a ticket.
The food card was for a specific supermarket that required a 2 hour walk, half of it carrying all the shopping. Again, no money for transport. 2 supermarkets just up the road from us but they were not the 'brand' the food card was issued for.
I went with her (with me providing transport and parking fees) to the local court service as it became clear the only way forward would be to sue the company, for not paying wages owed. At the court we were told by the staff that the process would be a waste of time as it would cost her at something like £50 to even lodge a complaint (she could not afford it, no money, I cant remember the exact fee as it was a couple of years back). I said what if I managed to get the fees for her. They then told me that despite the fact she and the kids were starving, the prosecution would not get on the court list for action for 'at least 9 months' as the courts were' too busy' and had a huge waiting list.
I researched the cleaning company and found they had been not paying staff all around the country as normal behaviour, skipping weeks or months before restarting payments again.
Eventually the headmaster of the school found out and forced the cleaning company to make some payments. It turned out (I had not known this at the time) that the cleaning staff had all been hostile to the headmaster finding out thier financial plight, as they had been lead to believe the cleaning company would sack them all if the story was 'leaked' and that none of them would be able to claim social security money for either food or housing, plus they all knew how the woman local to me had been treated when she tried to get help or advice. Many of the workers were forigen and barely spoke English anyway, so protesting or getting help for themselves was extra difficult.
A lot of the Citizens Advice Bureaus have reduced hours or shut down as the government cut lots of funding to them.
It also now costs literally thousands of pounds to take your employer to an industrial tribunal. You have to pay in advance. If you loose your costs are possibly even higher.
No one wants benefits cheats, but what about all the victims and innocents who are not cheats? So many people just don't realise how bad things have got since the Con/Lib pact and onwards. I think a lot of people just don't believe its getting so bad for the poorer people, simply because we cannot stand to grasp the awfulness of it.
The same lady eventually got regular pay and was offered free school meals - which made her worse off as then her tax credits were cut so the family was poorer than before they were 'helped'.
A lady local to me was 'unemployed' after her husband abandoned her and their 3 children for the woman he had been cheating with. He has got away with paying no child support at all and now has a new partner and 2 more children and still pays nothing for the first lot. Before becoming a full time mum she had been earning and paying tax on £30,000 per year. She had paid the majority payments on the monthly mortgage on their house as his income was lower than hers. When he left her it turned out he had run up all sorts of debts she did not know about, so she got nothing for the house she had been paying for for years and was left penniless.
My neighbour eventually got a job with a cleaning company as a cleaner - as she had not been employed for several years she could not find another post at the same level and was emotionally struggling with the pressure from the unemployment office, the divorce, the lack of child payments and that very few companies even bother to reply to applicants these days, which is demoralising in itself.
In desperation she cleaned at the local school. She worked for the cleaning company for 3 months, going to work 5 days a week all that time and during that time was paid nothing at all in wages. She literally had no money to feed her kids.
She contacted the employment and social offices to ask what to do. The employment people told her it was' nothing to do with' them any more despite them still recommending people apply to the cleaning company but that if she stopped going to work (for which she was receiving no money) she would probably be officially sacked for not turning up as required or at least be considered by the employment office to have 'voluntarily resigned'. Either way she would get no social security or housing benefit whatsoever as leaving the job would be 'self inflicted unemployment'.
The social security people gave her 1 set of 'food cards' which would not be repeated. She had to beg for these as no food for the kids or herself. She was told to collect them at a location that would require a 4 hour walk to obtain them. Lots of buses go that way, but she had no money to pay for a ticket.
The food card was for a specific supermarket that required a 2 hour walk, half of it carrying all the shopping. Again, no money for transport. 2 supermarkets just up the road from us but they were not the 'brand' the food card was issued for.
I went with her (with me providing transport and parking fees) to the local court service as it became clear the only way forward would be to sue the company, for not paying wages owed. At the court we were told by the staff that the process would be a waste of time as it would cost her at something like £50 to even lodge a complaint (she could not afford it, no money, I cant remember the exact fee as it was a couple of years back). I said what if I managed to get the fees for her. They then told me that despite the fact she and the kids were starving, the prosecution would not get on the court list for action for 'at least 9 months' as the courts were' too busy' and had a huge waiting list.
I researched the cleaning company and found they had been not paying staff all around the country as normal behaviour, skipping weeks or months before restarting payments again.
Eventually the headmaster of the school found out and forced the cleaning company to make some payments. It turned out (I had not known this at the time) that the cleaning staff had all been hostile to the headmaster finding out thier financial plight, as they had been lead to believe the cleaning company would sack them all if the story was 'leaked' and that none of them would be able to claim social security money for either food or housing, plus they all knew how the woman local to me had been treated when she tried to get help or advice. Many of the workers were forigen and barely spoke English anyway, so protesting or getting help for themselves was extra difficult.
A lot of the Citizens Advice Bureaus have reduced hours or shut down as the government cut lots of funding to them.
It also now costs literally thousands of pounds to take your employer to an industrial tribunal. You have to pay in advance. If you loose your costs are possibly even higher.
No one wants benefits cheats, but what about all the victims and innocents who are not cheats? So many people just don't realise how bad things have got since the Con/Lib pact and onwards. I think a lot of people just don't believe its getting so bad for the poorer people, simply because we cannot stand to grasp the awfulness of it.
The same lady eventually got regular pay and was offered free school meals - which made her worse off as then her tax credits were cut so the family was poorer than before they were 'helped'.
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These are interesting, true and quite horrifying reads
http://i100.independent.co.uk/artic...t-sanction-decisions-known-to-man--x1dmkd2_Me
http://stupidsanctions.tumblr.com/
Sample:
You are forced to retire due to a heart condition, and you claim Employment and Support Allowance. During your assessment you have a heart attack. You are sanctioned for not completing your assessment.
Source: Debbie Abrahams MP
Text
It’s Christmas Day and you don’t fill in your job search evidence form to show that you’ve looked for all the new jobs that are advertised on Christmas Day. You are sanctioned. Merry Christmas.
Source: Poverty Alliance"
http://i100.independent.co.uk/artic...t-sanction-decisions-known-to-man--x1dmkd2_Me
http://stupidsanctions.tumblr.com/
Sample:
You are forced to retire due to a heart condition, and you claim Employment and Support Allowance. During your assessment you have a heart attack. You are sanctioned for not completing your assessment.
Source: Debbie Abrahams MP
Text
It’s Christmas Day and you don’t fill in your job search evidence form to show that you’ve looked for all the new jobs that are advertised on Christmas Day. You are sanctioned. Merry Christmas.
Source: Poverty Alliance"
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woof woof
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It's dangerous to take these stories at face value but there will always be sad, wrong and cruel decisions and I suppose there is some sort of appeal process. If there isn't there should be.
BTW I probably agree with the sanction against the person starting a job in 2 weeks time. Harsh I know but perhaps something could be found for those two weeks rather than sitting back and living off the state.
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The 80's was the boom period for Jobcentre's signing people off sick, it's how they managed to destroy entire industries. I personally know miners who were in their 30's and were told they'd never have to work again, just sign to say they were disabled.
The last Labour government took the painful measure to report figures for the 'workless' and 'in work' to stop future governments falling back to those habits, when Universal Credit is fully rolled out, figures will be difficult to interpret, as they'll include unemployed, sick and working (current tax credit) claimants. However a Tory government no longer has to hide it's unemployment statistics in the sick pot, they now sanction people and send them on temporary 'work experience' schemes which mean they're no longer 'unemployed'.
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I was saddened today by a headline that said Labour had effectively lost it's own Leadership Election.
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"Iain Duncan Smith should resign after the release of statistics showing thousands of people died soon after being found fit to work in disability benefit tests, the frontrunner for the Labour leadership has said.
Jeremy Corbyn called for the Work and Pensions Secretary to step down, and said the Work Capability Assessments had left some disabled people in “despair”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eath-figures-says-jeremy-corbyn-10475017.html
Because Corbyn is the only person near UK leadership who is remotely interested in changing these horrible benefit related situations.
And also hopefully he might sort out this sort of vomit making situation:
"Disgraced MPs who cheated on their expenses, a multimillionaire Tory donor, a group of back-room political fixers and an alcohol industry lobbyist have been ennobled by David Cameron, sparking renewed calls for root-and-branch reform of the House of Lords.
The 26 new Tory peers, along with 11 new Liberal Democrats and eight new Labour Lords, will take the membership of the Upper House to more than 800 – making it the second-largest legislative assembly in the world after the National People’s Congress of China."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-expenses-scandal-are-ennobled-10475640.html
People whine over a tiny minority of claimants cheats- when people like this have their nose in the trough in much bigger ways:
"The new members will cost the taxpayer up to £13,500 a day in expenses when the Lords is sitting. Of the 45 new peers, over 90 per cent were previously MPs, MEPs, councillors, former political staff or party figures.
Among the largest group are ex-MPs – 24 in total – almost half of whom had to repay, between them, some £55,000 in overpaid or unjustified expenses. They include Douglas Hogg who indirectly billed the taxpayer for the cost of cleaning his moat and tuning his piano at his country house."
Be poor and need money to not starve and its implied you are thieving undeserving scum, even if there is no evidence against the individuals. Be rich and steal money and get a peerage and a nice subsidised drink at the house of parliament bar. Maybe get your moat cleaned and mole hills disposed of at tax payers expense, or treat yourself to a new duck house.
Jeremy Corbyn called for the Work and Pensions Secretary to step down, and said the Work Capability Assessments had left some disabled people in “despair”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eath-figures-says-jeremy-corbyn-10475017.html
Because Corbyn is the only person near UK leadership who is remotely interested in changing these horrible benefit related situations.
And also hopefully he might sort out this sort of vomit making situation:
"Disgraced MPs who cheated on their expenses, a multimillionaire Tory donor, a group of back-room political fixers and an alcohol industry lobbyist have been ennobled by David Cameron, sparking renewed calls for root-and-branch reform of the House of Lords.
The 26 new Tory peers, along with 11 new Liberal Democrats and eight new Labour Lords, will take the membership of the Upper House to more than 800 – making it the second-largest legislative assembly in the world after the National People’s Congress of China."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-expenses-scandal-are-ennobled-10475640.html
People whine over a tiny minority of claimants cheats- when people like this have their nose in the trough in much bigger ways:
"The new members will cost the taxpayer up to £13,500 a day in expenses when the Lords is sitting. Of the 45 new peers, over 90 per cent were previously MPs, MEPs, councillors, former political staff or party figures.
Among the largest group are ex-MPs – 24 in total – almost half of whom had to repay, between them, some £55,000 in overpaid or unjustified expenses. They include Douglas Hogg who indirectly billed the taxpayer for the cost of cleaning his moat and tuning his piano at his country house."
Be poor and need money to not starve and its implied you are thieving undeserving scum, even if there is no evidence against the individuals. Be rich and steal money and get a peerage and a nice subsidised drink at the house of parliament bar. Maybe get your moat cleaned and mole hills disposed of at tax payers expense, or treat yourself to a new duck house.
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They are still not getting it, unfortunately.I was saddened today by a headline that said Labour had effectively lost it's own Leadership Election.
What I would like to see is whether he can become a statesman, in his own style, who could actually lead a large team.
woof woof
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Yup. That's what happened back then.
Avoiding the politics... the current situation arguably makes it less likely that we (the UK) can continue to maintain the current level of lifestyle of the unemployed when it's hard enough to maintain the lifestyle of the employed.
I don't personally believe that printing money to pay citizens for existing is sustainable. It'll lead to us using carrots and parsnips as currency. There was a case in recent years (although I forget the details) when one former soviet state payed the other in some trade deal or other in vegetables. If we go down the road suggssted by some we'll get to that point sooner or later.
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I don't think we'll ever know.
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A bit too melodramatic and spiteful for my taste, detracting from the good points being made.
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Come on Phil every government since the 1960s has been doing this why just blame the Tories? .
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I'm not so sure, it wouldn't surprise me if manages it. I don't think the Conservatives are getting it either, and all around me I'm hearing support for him. But then again, it was not too dissimilar for ukip at the last election.
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"It's dangerous to take these stories at face value but there will always be sad, wrong and cruel decisions and I suppose there is some sort of appeal process. If there isn't there should be.
BTW I probably agree with the sanction against the person starting a job in 2 weeks time. Harsh I know but perhaps something could be found for those two weeks rather than sitting back and living off the state."
You dont have a clue what every day life has become like for some unfortunate and innocent people do you? I hope one day your business crashes, or you get made redundant and have to face being treated like scum when you have done nothing wrong. Its not the fun you seem to think it is....
Try looking up 'empathy' in a dictionary.
If you think you can walk into a job for an odd 2 weeks, you are mad. I have even seen a coffee shop asking for staff with degrees... you have no idea what employment prospects are like for many people. Several friends have been made redundant in the last 2 or 3 years - people with multiple decade work records in good jobs. Treated like trash now.
BTW I probably agree with the sanction against the person starting a job in 2 weeks time. Harsh I know but perhaps something could be found for those two weeks rather than sitting back and living off the state."
You dont have a clue what every day life has become like for some unfortunate and innocent people do you? I hope one day your business crashes, or you get made redundant and have to face being treated like scum when you have done nothing wrong. Its not the fun you seem to think it is....
Try looking up 'empathy' in a dictionary.
If you think you can walk into a job for an odd 2 weeks, you are mad. I have even seen a coffee shop asking for staff with degrees... you have no idea what employment prospects are like for many people. Several friends have been made redundant in the last 2 or 3 years - people with multiple decade work records in good jobs. Treated like trash now.
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The current Sanction regime and enforced work experience bear no resemblance to anything that existed before.
woof woof
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It'd be nice if everyone had a conscience and did the right thing. The fiddling rich should be crucified as should those taking state money they really shouldn't. As to starving, I'd inagine that those in genuine danger of that are few and far between in the UK. IMVHO claims about poverty levels in the UK are often exaggerated for political reasons. If you want to see real poverty there's plenty in the world but in the UK IMVHO it's usually a very different thing.
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woof woof
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But how do we get people who could make more of an effort to support themselves to do so?
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With a reasonable sanction regime.
woof woof
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Thanks for making widely innacurate assumptions about me. I have plenty of empathy, unlike you... you hope my business crashes or I get made redundant and treated like scum? Where is your empathy? From that little rant you do seem to be a particuarly nasty piece of work don't you? Maybe you can take a long hard look at yourself?
I'm not working or claiming benefits (currently "retired" from paid employment and now a full time carer) but nobody has handed me a thing in my life and whatever I've earned I earned through my own efforts. I've been made redundant and I've been penniless but what I didn't do is lie, cheat or sit on my arse. I see mysely as rather average really and yet I've managed to work and hard... and yes, thank you, when I needed to I worked from day to day.
Grow up will you.
woof woof
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It's needed. As I said, I think it'll be a long hard road to get those who could try harder to support themselves to do so and sadly a stick will be needed as well as a carrot.
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I'd settle for a little more compassion to be honest. Yes, the fiddling rich should be held to account as should the benefit fraudsters, I just don't see any evidence of the fiddling rich being hounded and victimised but I do see many innocent benefit recipients being vilified.
I'm not sure I agree with your view regarding UK poverty, of course if you compare it to some poor third world country then yes people here are not impoverished. The difference is we are a wealthy country, there should be no need for families to have to rely on food banks and charities etc in order to make ends meet and to feed their children, but that's another story
woof woof
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I'd settle for a little more compassion to be honest. Yes, the fiddling rich should be held to account as should the benefit fraudsters, I just don't see any evidence of the fiddling rich being hounded and victimised but I do see many innocent benefit recipients being vilified.
I'm not sure I agree with your view regarding UK poverty, of course if you compare it to some poor third world country then yes people here are not impoverished. The difference is we are a wealthy country, there should be no need for families to have to rely on food banks and charities etc in order to make ends meet and to feed their children, but that's another story
You'd settle for more compassoon, from me? I have overflowing compassion thank you.
Every penny given to someone who could and should try harder to fund their own lifestyle is a penny that isn't available to be given to someone in genuine need. That's a crying shame not a lack of empathy or compassion.
There may well be a definition of UK poverty somwhere on the net. The last time I heard it on the radio (R5)I thought it was frankly laughable. Yes we are despite our troubles a relatively wealthy country but we don't have unlimited wealth and we don't have a magic money tree. The welfare state and indeed wider state spending needs to be sustainable and IMVHO one way of helping to ensure that it is is to spend wisely and to limit benefits to those in genuine need. Those not in genuine need should do their best to provide for themselves. That shouldn't be too much to ask but I see plenty of evidence of people just not trying never mind not trying hard enough.
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I think you misunderstand me Alan, when I said I'd settle for more compassion, that wasn't directed at you ( apologies if it came across that way) it was a general statement ie people everywhere, as in a compassionate country.
I think I will bow out of this thread now, I did not intend to offend anyone I was merely explaining my point of view.
It seems to be going round in circles, I think we all agree that fraudsters whether it be tax or benefits should be dealt with, but perhaps we disagree on methods used.
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Indeed, good point. And this is supposed to be a thread about Jeremy Corbyn, so perhaps we might try to get back to that topic?
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Typical baby boomer comment.
Thanks to the socialist government in the 40s, were lucky enough to have the best social mobility in history, and enjoyed everything that brought, but no one handed them anything. Then vote away all the policies that got them where they are in the first place. Burden the young to protect their wealth.
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But not addressing the debt of the country will burden the young even more.
I don't see how the rich 'get away with it', they too get prosecuted. Maybe they are just not as high profile as benefit cheats (in the same way everyone jumps on the U.S. For gun crime but it's far worse in Seth Africa).
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The debt per GDP is lower now than when the baby boomers were born. I wasn't referring to the deficit.
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And in what way has Jeremy Corbyn contributed to that or commented on that?
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Its ideology driving the government not the deficit. Thsts just a convenient excuse.
I wasn't referring to the deficit when I said burdening the young.
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Don't be daft... this is OOF it goes all over the place! It occasionally comes back to something relating to the thread title but that's not mandatory
D
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And enticing carrots!