Beginner WHY AM I STILL FAILING WITH NO FLASH??? HELP !!

[Nawty]

Also, poorly exposed or manipulated images from 50D look terrible to my eye - not ideal given your situation.

 

[gothgirl]

A 50mm lens at f/1.8 on your body at 25' away would give you 2.86' behind and 2.32' in front of your focus point so bit of scope for both dog and owner. You could then crop in to present a reasonable shot..........................

FYI there is a software package called OpticsPro 10 Elite that offers the best noise reduction possible via software so should enable you to get the best out of your equipment without spending £££ upgrading both body and lenses. Free 30 day trial so worth a punt. Shoot in raw for best results!!

@Ady N don't know if I am doing it wrong, but I tried this software, and it didn't help with the photo of the black pug.. it just lightened it, and that made the noise look worse.

 

[Ady N]

@Ady N don't know if I am doing it wrong, but I tried this software, and it didn't help with the photo of the black pug.. it just lightened it, and that made the noise look worse.

View attachment 51977 View attachment 51978

If you use the 'prime' NR option it works 'magic'. I have compared to workflows through LR or Bridge and it is a fantastic pre-processing tool. I would spend a bit of time with it and do some comparisons - I did and nothing touched it.

 

[shreds]

Ok, you cant afford a significantly better ISO camera, but presumably you are not shooting these events daily.

Hire or borrow a camera known for good ISO the day before (to practice) and on the day of the show or look at secondhand. It will transform your shots as the ISO will cope so much better than your current offering.

 

[gothgirl]

If you use the 'prime' NR option it works 'magic'. I have compared to workflows through LR or Bridge and it is a fantastic pre-processing tool. I would spend a bit of time with it and do some comparisons - I did and nothing touched it.

Aah that will be why then, I converted the images to DNG to save space, so couldn't use the prime option.

Well I will have a play about with this for now, and look into upgrading

 

[Phil V]

Ok, you cant afford a significantly better ISO camera, but presumably you are not shooting these events daily.

Hire or borrow a camera known for good ISO the day before (to practice) and on the day of the show or look at secondhand. It will transform your shots as the ISO will cope so much better than your current offering.

This^
I'd say that Canon don't do a crop camera that'll do what you want, the 6d is the least cost option, hiring is probably your best bet.

 

[Nawty]

The other option is to work within the limitations of your kit and develop your technique with regard to WHEN to take the shots so you can use the 50mm and get both owner and dog in focus.

I have a friend who shows and judges whippets to a high level and all of the photos I ever see are of them static - very rarely do they have pictures of them being led around. This might just have to be something you accept until you can afford a better camera (and to be honest and as Phil says, this will likely mean a move away from Canon).

 

[TimmyG]

Right I am getting really fed up now, where am I going wrong ?

I was recently shooting indoors... where I cannot use flash.
It was floodlit, and not dark by any means, but because of animals involved I was not allowed to use flash

• I had my ISO on my 40d as high as it goes (H) ....
• I had +2 exposure comp
• Slowest shutter speed I could manage in the circumstances (1/80 - 1/100)
• And my lens on the lowest aperture it would go (3.5 on my 18-55 and between 1.8-2.8 on my nifty fifty)

So as far as I can tell I am doing everything I can.... but still my images are SO soft and noisy it's driving me mad.

The noise doesn't make me as mad as how soft everything is ! ! !

Grrrr...if I could just get this right I would be so much happier

Don't use +2 exposure compensation unless you have a very bright background. From the example shot it seems like you have a mixed background and this will vary considerably depending on which focus mechanism you are using. Stick everything in manual, set the ISO as high as you would be happy with, open up the aperture as much as possible, then close it down a stop, use the exposure metre to see what shutter speed you are working with. If it's not fast enough, consider investing in a monopod and try to work with the low speeds (try to make use of motion blur, try panning etc.) and learn to time your shots accordingly. A longer prime would be useful here if you have the budget, but you make do with what you've got....

 

[snerkler]

The other option is to work within the limitations of your kit and develop your technique with regard to WHEN to take the shots so you can use the 50mm and get both owner and dog in focus.

I have a friend who shows and judges whippets to a high level and all of the photos I ever see are of them static - very rarely do they have pictures of them being led around. This might just have to be something you accept until you can afford a better camera (and to be honest and as Phil says, this will likely mean a move away from Canon).

I think at least a move to full frame, one of the better ISO handling crop bodies is the D7200 and it can't compete with the 6D. But then the 6D is quite a way off the D750 and not only in ISO.

 

[snerkler]

Don't use +2 exposure compensation unless you have a very bright background. From the example shot it seems like you have a mixed background and this will vary considerably depending on which focus mechanism you are using. Stick everything in manual, set the ISO as high as you would be happy with, open up the aperture as much as possible, then close it down a stop, use the exposure metre to see what shutter speed you are working with. If it's not fast enough, consider investing in a monopod and try to work with the low speeds (try to make use of motion blur, try panning etc.) and learn to time your shots accordingly. A longer prime would be useful here if you have the budget, but you make do with what you've got....

I queried the +2 exp comp too until I saw that she was shooting a black pug, I would use +ve exp comp for this too unless I was spot metering from the dog.

 

[Phil V]

The other option is to work within the limitations of your kit and develop your technique with regard to WHEN to take the shots so you can use the 50mm and get both owner and dog in focus.

I have a friend who shows and judges whippets to a high level and all of the photos I ever see are of them static - very rarely do they have pictures of them being led around. This might just have to be something you accept until you can afford a better camera (and to be honest and as Phil says, this will likely mean a move away from Canon).

The first bit of this^
There are always images I wish I could take, but if I can't do it to the required std, that's just tough luck and I concentrate on getting the best of what I can.
Imagination and planning are more important than gear.
The only time the above gets overturned, is when there's a brief set from a 3rd party.

 

[snerkler]

The first bit of this^
There are always images I wish I could take, but if I can't do it to the required std, that's just tough luck and I concentrate on getting the best of what I can.
Imagination and planning are more important than gear.
The only time the above gets overturned, is when there's a brief set from a 3rd party.

I kind of agree, but if you are wanting a specific shot and nothing else will so sometimes equipment can't provide you with what you need. So whilst I think the OP can work around this with the compromises already mentioned, if they aren't prepared to make these compromises then their only options are less than top quality images, or upgrade to FF.

 

[StewartR]

Nope, slightly worse.

Personally I'd take these noise/ISO comparisons with a slight pinch of salt.

Noise comparisons are normally made at 100% magnification. But in this instance you're comparing a 15MP camera with a 10MP camera, and that introduces a complication.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to compare the noise with images from both cameras downsampled to the same final size, such as 2MP for on-screen display or 8MP for a 12"x8" print. That would give the advantage to the 50D, because its images would have to be downsampled to a greater extent and that would reduce the noise. But I don't know how much by, and I'm not aware of any places where such comparisons are carried out and reported upon.

 

[snerkler]

Personally I'd take these noise/ISO comparisons with a slight pinch of salt.

Noise comparisons are normally made at 100% magnification. But in this instance you're comparing a 15MP camera with a 10MP camera, and that introduces a complication.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to compare the noise with images from both cameras downsampled to the same final size, such as 2MP for on-screen display or 8MP for a 12"x8" print. That would give the advantage to the 50D, because its images would have to be downsampled to a greater extent and that would reduce the noise. But I don't know how much by, and I'm not aware of any places where such comparisons are carried out and reported upon.

Of course, you should always take these results into context. But if you read the article on DP alongside this you would see that the 50D is still behind.

 

[TimmyG]

I queried the +2 exp comp too until I saw that she was shooting a black pug, I would use +ve exp comp for this too unless I was spot metering from the dog.

My concern is that if this is the setting for all the shots, is likely adding to the issues of low light conditions rather than helping with them. As you say, it all depends on your metering mode (and from which point it was metered - if metered from the dog you would use -ve exp comp anyway) but I am not sure what it has been set to here (apologies I described it as "focus mechanism" in my original comment, but it is the exposure mode we are interested in).. The main issues are around available light, sharpness and focus as far as I can tell, so lets take exposure compensation out of the equation for the time being.

 

[snerkler]

My concern is that if this is the setting for all the shots, is likely adding to the issues of low light conditions rather than helping with them. As you say, it all depends on your metering mode (and from which point it was metered - if metered from the dog you would use -ve exp comp anyway) but I am not sure what it has been set to here (apologies I described it as "focus mechanism" in my original comment, but it is the exposure mode we are interested in).. The main issues are around available light, sharpness and focus as far as I can tell, so lets take exposure compensation out of the equation for the time being.

Yep, +ve exposure comp will result in higher ISO and/or slower shutter.

 

[riddell]

• I had my ISO on my 40d as high as it goes (H) ....

• I had +2 exposure comp

• Slowest shutter speed I could manage in the circumstances (1/80 - 1/100)

• And my lens on the lowest aperture it would go (3.5 on my 18-55 and between 1.8-2.8 on my nifty fifty

Theres your problem. All these things are contributing to why your images are grainy and soft.

a] a 40D, its an old budget camera not known for high quality ISO
b] camera set to H. That's not going to help, especially not on something like a 40d
c] +2 comp. Why are you pushing it? and it sounds like you are not using manual. Theres another problem
d] the 18-55 is a not a good quality lens, that won't be helping. The 50mm 1.8 however is fantastic and great in low light. If you are desperate, just use that.

At least you got the shutter speeds in the right area.

For future, shoot manual get the aperture and shutter speed right. Try and keep the ISO as low as possible,
Otherwise I'm afraid its a camera upgrade that's needed.

Paul
www.photographybyriddell.co.uk

 

[TimmyG]

Yep, +ve exposure comp will result in higher ISO and/or slower shutter.

Yep, but looking at the original stated settings...

• I had my ISO on my 40d as high as it goes (H) ....

• I had +2 exposure comp

• Slowest shutter speed I could manage in the circumstances (1/80 - 1/100)

• And my lens on the lowest aperture it would go (3.5 on my 18-55 and between 1.8-2.8 on my nifty fifty)

It can only reduce the shutter speed (unless it performs some other kind of technical wizardry I'm unaware of). Switching to manual removes this unnecessary complication and enables you to evaluate the limitations of the equipment.

If you are having to work with very slow shutter speeds, I would consider using a monopod and getting more creative with your shots. Of course it would be much easier with a nice, fast lens and latest sensor technology, but if these aren't attainable, there is still plenty of scope for improvement. Are you being overly critical of the ISO performance? Do the owners even notice this kind of thing? If you can't "freeze" the action, make use of the movement to more creative effect. If the owners want a clear, sharp image of their pet, perhaps a posed portrait would be more appropriate.

That said, if you are doing this as a business, in a competitive environment you may struggle to match the IQ of your competitors if they are using the latest and greatest gear. You have to outshine them with photography and not equipment in that case.

 

[snerkler]

Yep, but looking at the original stated settings...



It can only reduce the shutter speed (unless it performs some other kind of technical wizardry I'm unaware of).

Err, that's what I said wasn't it?

 

[TimmyG]

Err, that's what I said wasn't it?

Almost

 

[Ulfric M Douglas]

Yes, but the nifty fifty has the DOF issue... yes shooting at 1.8 means I have a slightly better image overall.. but half of the image is blur/gone because of DOF.

It has been mentioned already, but only a tiny bit,
and I too disagree that for these subjects F1.8 does NOT mean too shallow DOF.
With your equipment in those conditions I would only use the 50mm and only wide-open, i.e.F1.8 ...
If you nail the focus they will be fine, unless your particular lens is soft wide-open.

 

[chris malcolm]

Right I am getting really fed up now, where am I going wrong ?

I was recently shooting indoors... where I cannot use flash.
It was floodlit, and not dark by any means, but because of animals involved I was not allowed to use flash

• I had my ISO on my 40d as high as it goes (H) ....

• -- which among other things softens your image and reduces detail resolution, a LOT.

  [*]I had +2 exposure comp
  [*]Slowest shutter speed I could manage in the circumstances (1/80 - 1/100)

  -- which is seriously risking motion blur and camera shake softening.

  [*]And my lens on the lowest aperture it would go (3.5 on my 18-55 and between 1.8-2.8 on my nifty fifty)

-- which will give wide aperture softness on both lenses and shallow DoF focus error softening risks on the 50mm.

So as far as I can tell I am doing everything I can.... but still my images are SO soft and noisy it's driving me mad.

It looks to me as though you're doing a number of things each of which will seriously risk making your images softer and noisier. It sounds as though you don't understand the basic principles behind the trade-offs of getting the best images of moving things in low light. Have you got an introductory photography textbook?

 

[The23rdman]

Buy a 5d1. Dirt cheap and much better high ISO than your 40D.

 

[petersmart]

If you are trying to focus on a moving object with your camera set up as you dexcribe then you will have problems.

Back in the day (film) one technique a lot of us used to capture moving objects was to pre focus on the ground where the car, or cyclist, (or in your case dog), would be and then shoot as it hit that spot.

This helped greatly in difficult situations such as this.
.

 

[Anthony.Ralph]

Buy a 5d1. Dirt cheap and much better high ISO than your 40D.

+1
declaration of interest here - I have a 5D I know subsequent versions improved each time, but the original is still pretty good.

Also, whilst it is probably forbidden to use a tripod in the environment you are working in, have you considered a monopod? I use one and can vouch for the significant improvement in crispness of shots at lower shutter speeds and the monopod is very flexible in use.

Just a thought...

Anthony.

 

[stryvya]

SO take all the Info from above go back to Venue (If possible) and fire away at anything, see what works, take notes and learn from it.

Nothing beats hands on learning, you can read it up as much as you like and still get it wrongf.

 

[htid]

Buy a 5d1. Dirt cheap and much better high ISO than your 40D.

+1
declaration of interest here - I have a 5D I know subsequent versions improved each time, but the original is still pretty good.

Also, whilst it is probably forbidden to use a tripod in the environment you are working in, have you considered a monopod? I use one and can vouch for the significant improvement in crispness of shots at lower shutter speeds and the monopod is very flexible in use.

Just a thought...

Anthony.

As far as I can see the 5d1 is nearly the same price as the 60d which she said she can't afford so I guess that's out of her price range.

 

[retrosi]

What's your budget, have a look at the 70d I have seen them for under £500 sold on eBay but that could be way off your £s...
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp...on-EOS-60D-versus-Canon-EOS-50D___895_663_272

One technique I use often when shooting with a low shutter speed is something a bit counter intuitive.
Most people think slow shutter speed means one shot at a time.
Well I use the high fps feature which on your 40d is 6.5 or 3 fps.
This at least in combination with AI focus will give you a better chance at keepers.

Try it I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[gothgirl]

What's your budget, have a look at the 70d I have seen them for under £500 sold on eBay but that could be way off your £s...
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp...on-EOS-60D-versus-Canon-EOS-50D___895_663_272

One technique I use often when shooting with a low shutter speed is something a bit counter intuitive.
Most people think slow shutter speed means one shot at a time.
Well I use the high fps feature which on your 40d is 6.5 or 3 fps.
This at least in combination with AI focus will give you a better chance at keepers.

Try it I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I'll give that a try

 

[andyscott]

this looks to me like a mixture of focus error ?slightly back focussed and camera shake

 

[RichardTaylor]

Not AI focus - try AI Servo

This is for the 7D (however the same principals apply.

https://www.learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_EOS7D_AF_Modes_QuickGuide.pdf

 

[retrosi]

Yes Richard your correct my tablet auto correct and often I don't look carefully enough.
I meant AI servo with your fps set to high.

 

[gothgirl]

also posted in my "suggest an upgrade thread"
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/suggest-a-upgrade-canon-40d.609822/page-5


At this point I am really hoping that I might be making some mistakes in my shooting, facing the skyrocketing costs of replacing my gear
This was shot handheld, so could hopefully improve with the addition of a monopod (that @Terrywoodenpic has kindly offered me)

Not meant to be the best pic and not edited to it's full potential either... but just a very fast example to show this is my 40d, with a 50mm 1.8 on it
Inside my well lit house, with no flash.
shot at 1/60 & 1600iso (any lower the image is too dark to do anything with)

This is how I would usually approach shooting without flash.... I have included

- the original photo straight from the camera

- an edit that shows just the levels / exposure adjusted with no noise reduction

- a "final" edit that has levels, exposure and noise reduction added.

- copy of exif details.


Hopefully there might be something that I can change in the way I am shooting that might slightly improve my "keepers" while I can save a little more money and spend a little more time researching what I want to move to next

 

[Anthony.Ralph]

also posted in my "suggest an upgrade thread"
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/suggest-a-upgrade-canon-40d.609822/page-5


At this point I am really hoping that I might be making some mistakes in my shooting, facing the skyrocketing costs of replacing my gear
This was shot handheld, so could hopefully improve with the addition of a monopod (that @Terrywoodenpic has kindly offered me)

[..]

t

Would be interesting to hear how you get on with the monopod - please let us know...

Anthony.

 

[andyscott]

It's just way off on your exposure.

1/60 is tough to hold handheld taking into account the focal length and crop factor

 

[hypnotic]

One piece of advice that I would give is to try shooting the dogs from closer to their eye level rather than from above ..... This will always be easier with taller dogs though.

 

[gothgirl]

They more or less fill the frame at this distance with the 50mm ... If I got closer to them all I'd be able to do is very close ups X

I'm considering 28mm 2.8

 

[Phil V]

They more or less fill the frame at this distance with the 50mm ... If I got closer to them all I'd be able to do is very close ups X

I'm considering 28mm 2.8

It's the angle not the vicinity, you can get to their eye level at 300mm if you like.

The 50mm is fine for this, however, as above I'd have put the dog in some light, rather than just shooting it where it lay, and it's underexposed, you'd really have wanted 2/3 to a stop of +exp comp

 

[gothgirl]

It's the angle not the vicinity, you can get to their eye level at 300mm if you like.

The 50mm is fine for this, however, as above I'd have put the dog in some light, rather than just shooting it where it lay, and it's underexposed, you'd really have wanted 2/3 to a stop of +exp comp

As I said wasn't meant to be a masterpiece

I do usually add a stop of EV comp when I shoot , but someone on this thread or the other had said it can make noise worse and not actually help... So I didn't add it this time

 

[Phil V]

As I said wasn't meant to be a masterpiece

I do usually add a stop of EV comp when I shoot , but someone on this thread or the other had said it can make noise worse and not actually help... So I didn't add it this time

I'm aware of the 'advice' you received re exp,comp, my older Canons are always set on 1/3 or 2/3 plus comp before I even look through the vf. I adjust to taste after I've seen the scene.