Why mirrorless sales are disapointing

if your having issues with the evf in bright light, its almost certainly because theres light coming in to the side/rear where you you arent getting a good seal, with a good eyecup that issue goes away, but alot of camera's dont come with a good eyecup.

but a good evf like in a a77 or a7, or the new one from olympus? with the 2 screens for manual focus are just as good or better than crop mirror flappers in nearly everything, and certainly there abouts vs full frame mirror flappers.

the flappy mirror gives you smoother movement (rarely that noticable tbh), better for panning and taking a burst of pics (a tlr or rangefinder style would be even better :eek: ), and is more forgiving in very bright and very low light.
itll often give better focusing too with the pdaf thingies, but the slt's and moreso the a6000 have fast af without a flappy mirror.
 
enough to miss one important sequence of shots.
Sorry mate, but that is nonsense.

Do you change cards during the day, course you do. One simply would have to get used to changing batteries. Please don`t tell me that can`t be achieved during the lulls in weddings, if it can`t, then the photographer is taking far too many shots or is not planning the day properly.
 
This I find odd, because a camera with EVF automatically gains up the image when there's not enough light entering the lens. I can see through my Sony viewfinder even when there is a 10 stop ND filter fitted. Flickering can happen under fluorescent light in theory, but it's not been noticeable so far: I sometimes take pictures of gels on a lightbox, and while there was a problem with flickering on the rear screen of my old Samsung S850, the flickering wasn't present with the SLT.

I would agree, even on an older Lumix G3 the EVF gains right up to the extent that one 40w light bulb in a dark room looks like it's daylight.
 
This I find odd, because a camera with EVF automatically gains up the image when there's not enough light entering the lens. I can see through my Sony viewfinder even when there is a 10 stop ND filter fitted. Flickering can happen under fluorescent light in theory, but it's not been noticeable so far: I sometimes take pictures of gels on a lightbox, and while there was a problem with flickering on the rear screen of my old Samsung S850, the flickering wasn't present with the SLT.

The menu options were probably set to exposure preview. The risk at shows where everyone is too busy to demonstrate, or in shops where the assistants aren't familiar with the models, is that prospective users can get put-off an entire range just because a previous tester has moved the settings from default.
 
The menu options were probably set to exposure preview. The risk at shows where everyone is too busy to demonstrate, or in shops where the assistants aren't familiar with the models, is that users can get put-off an entire range just because a previous tester has moved the settings from default.

That makes sense, and the most likely cause.
 
Personally I hope, and I'm pretty sure that CSC's/Mirrorless cameras will be developed further, especially with full frame sensors line the new Sony. I'm all for a lighter solution that produces the same IQ as my D800 with the same capabilities, the D800 is a great camera but it's a pain sometimes carrying all the gear around for miles.. I for one am keeping a keen eye on how Sony moves things on

Simon
 
This I find odd, because a camera with EVF automatically gains up the image when there's not enough light entering the lens. I can see through my Sony viewfinder even when there is a 10 stop ND filter fitted. Flickering can happen under fluorescent light in theory, but it's not been noticeable so far: I sometimes take pictures of gels on a lightbox, and while there was a problem with flickering on the rear screen of my old Samsung S850, the flickering wasn't present with the SLT.

The darkness could be down to some setting, but I fail to see who and why would want it like that.

Oddly enough the lights at the centre of Fuji stand were causing serious flickering. Again there may be a setting for this, but it is difficult to imagine why. Viewfinder should just work if there are a few photons flying around.
 
Personally I hope, and I'm pretty sure that CSC's/Mirrorless cameras will be developed further, especially with full frame sensors line the new Sony

I am sure they are. If we consider Canon C100/300 with dual pixel AF upgrade as a mirrorless CSC-like camera (they are if you ignore much larger size!) then it is pretty obvious where the game is heading to and what you could expect in the future. I'll try to have a play with one tomorrow if they let me near it :). It will be interesting to compare the small ones with the best

Sony has some catching up to do with their continuous AF, and would be wise to use a less compressed video codec. Sony doesn't have any show presence, do they?
 
The darkness could be down to some setting, but I fail to see who and why would want it like that.

Exposure preview mode is very useful when you have a manual aperture lens attached - i.e. vintage lenses using an adapter. It's normally off by default, so someone in front of you has been playing with the settings. I could also see that this mode might also cause the flicker issue if the refresh rate is compromised to maintain the preview (I think I've read about this on Fujix or one of the other Fuji forums).

The people running the stands should really be making sure that each display model is returned to factory default settings every so often. It's in their own interests.
 
I normally have exposure preview on, its better for average use, but pretty much useless for manual flash, TTL flash ups the viewfinder brightness.

Wonder if having it of would of helped look in the car park
 
looked at Fuji X-T1 and Samsung NX30 at the show. I was really disappointed with the size of EVF. They are so tiny it is not really possible to tell much about the scene at all.

OMG LOL Wat?!

Sorry, but I call shenanigans here. As another poster already said the EVF in the X-T1 is BIGGER THEN WHATS IN THE CANON 1DX... Please view this page (scroll down a bit) for a size comparison of the Fuji against the others where they show this very fact. http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilm-x-t1/4

And here is a quote directly from that page.

"In case you needed another illustration of just how large the X-T1's viewfinder is, here it is compared to the Canon EOS-1D X, which has the largest optical finder of any current DSLR. The X-T1's EVF offers a fractionally larger view, which means it's substantially bigger then the optical viewfinder of a typical APS-C format SLR Such as the Nikon D7100."
Im sorry, but you either didnt look thru the EVF or you did but with a huge existing prejudice against EVF's so you obviously didnt recognize what you were seeing. I had a chance to use the X-T1 for a few hours several weeks ago when the Fuji rep brought one to my local camera store. The EVF in that thing is HUGE. There is no way anyone could look at it and call it small and dark, irregardless of the settings on the camera. I mean the thing is big enough to show the magnification box ALONG SIDE the regular composition box. There is that much room in there. Amazing.

"It felt like tunnel vision to be more precise. Don't forget that it is 1.5x crop at 0.77x mag so the area must be a lot smaller (~0.51x equiv) than 1DX/5DIII VF at 0.76x."

Errrrr....wha? It doesnt matter what the crop is. We are talking about actual viewing real estate of the screen vs the optical vf. Its bigger. Hands down. No contest. Yes, it is the same crop view that the sensor sees...so what? Every APSC camera ever made shows you the crop view. The point is the screen you are viewing is MONDO HUGE.

I gave up optical view finders over two years ago when I sold my Canon gear and made the move to my NEX 7. Now I have upgraded to the A7. The EVF's work fine. Anybody can boo hoo over a new technology but the fact of the matter is that the camera is a tool. Its used to make compelling images. All this yammering about this camera has this and it sucks, and this camera doesnt do this.. oh noes! is just a wast of time.

Here are some horrible photos I have taken with my crappy and inferior EVF cameras.

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Omg, how do I work with such horrible gear that isnt selling to well? Oh, thats right....Im a photographer.

The reason that mirrorless sale arent what they could be is not about the EVF. Its not about size. Its not about any kind of technological feature. The reason is that it is a new type of camera that is going up against two entreanched companies that have poured over two decades of reaserch and development into the DSLR. I mean, Canon has had the EOS mount since the 80's for gods sake. The DSLR in ingrained in the basic consumers mind when they think "Hey, I want to get a nice camera." And when they think that they IMMEDIATELY think Nikon or Canon. Thats because those companies have been successful the last two decades in selling DSLR's. Thats why they dont want to reinvest in Mirrorless technology. DSLR's are a cash cow for them. They are recouping on a daily basis development money spent years ago. I read an article not to long ago that was chiding Canon for a lack of innovation and citing the fact they it has basically released the same camera over and over for the last three years with just tiny incremental improvements but the same basic body and sensor. Its not that they dont want to innovate, its that they really cant. DSLR's have reached the peak of their evolution. Theres not much left to do. And on top of that, Nikon and Canon have a huge stable of lenses to fit these cameras. Well I hope so....they have been making them for almost 30 years!

Here the facts. Most basic consumers wanting to get a 'nice camera' couldnt tell you what DSLR stands for if their life depended on it. And if they dont know and understand the basic functions of a mirror box assembly then they arent going to understand the benefits of doing away with it. A beginning photog wanting to 'take nice pictures' isnt going to understand jack about exposure compensation or the benefits of being able to control and see things in real time on an EVF. So this clueless consumer walks into a big box retailer and saunters over to the the camera part of the store and they are greeted with a mostly clueless sales person who may or may not understand anything about photography and if they do know something about photography they may or may not take the time to try to go into the differences between DSLR's and MILC's. The consumer just wants a good Canon or Nikon camera to take nice pics with and that is what they walk out of the store with. And that is even IF the retailer actually has any nice MILC's on display to begin with.

I talk to countless friends and co workers about cameras and almost every single one has NO CLUE how a camera works. I mention 'flange to focal distance' and 'aperture' and 'hyperfocal distance' and their eyes literally glaze over. Thats why mirrorless sales are less then what they could be. People who dont know anything about photography are buying cameras from people who dont know anything about photography (camera shops not included) and the want a 'big nice camera' so leave with a Nikon or Canon.

'Cause Canon makes good cameras, right?
 
I've had an m43 camera and numerous lenses since the GF1 first came out in 2009. I love everything about the system... Except the predujice from people who think it is inferior to a DSLR.

Sure there will always be 'pros' who need a D4 or a 5D3 for the images they capture, but for everybody else (including those with a cropper whose OVF is probably smaller and less bright than an EVF but insist their OVF is better) there is no reason why an m43 or other CSC won't get them the shots they want.

IMHO most people probably prefer using an LCD to compose and capture their images - either on a smartphone or a 'proper' camera and for all except the enthusiasts the viewfinder is dying. I have had cameras with viewfinders since the 80s and have no issue, in fact prefer, using LCD screens to take my photos.

Unfortunately people always think bigger is better.
 
Im sorry, but you either didnt look thru the EVF or you did but with a huge existing prejudice against EVF's so you obviously didnt recognize what you were seeing.

The DSLR in ingrained in the basic consumers mind when they think "Hey, I want to get a nice camera." And when they think that they IMMEDIATELY think Nikon or Canon. Thats because those companies have been successful the last two decades in selling DSLR's. Thats why they dont want to reinvest in Mirrorless technology. DSLR's are a cash cow for them.

Here the facts. Most basic consumers wanting to get a 'nice camera' couldnt tell you what DSLR stands for if their life depended on it. And if they dont know and understand the basic functions of a mirror box assembly then they arent going to understand the benefits of doing away with it. A beginning photog wanting to 'take nice pictures' isnt going to understand jack about exposure compensation or the benefits of being able to control and see things in real time on an EVF.

People who dont know anything about photography are buying cameras from people who dont know anything about photography (camera shops not included) and the want a 'big nice camera' so leave with a Nikon or Canon.

:agree:
 
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OMG LOL Wat?!
Are you new around here? You'll get used to daugirdas - he has a very polarised - and often incorrect - view on many things....
Except the predujice from people who think it is inferior to a DSLR.
Oh yes... Read one article in one of the mags last year where a professional photographer ridiculed CSCs saying they couldn't do anything creative as you couldn't do off-camera flash with them... Huh - I've been doing that for 2 years now!
 
Are you new around here? You'll get used to daugirdas - he has a very polarised - and often incorrect - view on many things....
Oh yes... Read one article in one of the mags last year where a professional photographer ridiculed CSCs saying they couldn't do anything creative as you couldn't do off-camera flash with them... Huh - I've been doing that for 2 years now!

Just face it Andy theyre poo, Damien Lovegrove, Zack Arias, LaRoque (to name a few) clearly cant do much with their useless CSCs. :rolleyes:
 
But for a pro to consider using one (from a wedding point of view), you'd need around 8-9. It's not so much the cost, it's the hassle to do it within very short windows of time.
I'm no professional wedding photographer but on your estimation of battery use you would be taking around 3500 pictures at a wedding with a Fuji X Pro 1. Is that normal?
 
I can only speak for me but there is no mirrorless camera that could adequately replace my D4 and D800. Once it gets to the stage there is, and it is made by Nikon, I will jump on board.
 
Less than that generally, but you need to account for battery failure and the most extreme circumstances. You'd definitely need 8-9 - possibly more.
Crikey! I'm genuinely interested how many photos you take at a wedding. I have done 2 weddings recently for friends and I took about 500 but that included the pre wedding and dozens of shots at the reception. In the end I was taking photos of drunks just for the amusement.
 
The largest single reason why EVF sales have not taken off is because the two major players in Professional and Pro-sumer photography (Nikon & Canon) have thus far refused to fit them within DSLR's. Whether this is because they see them as technically inferior or whether they are just protecting their interests (as with their refusal to fit In-camera OIS) I do not know.

One thing is pretty certain. In the future the advantages of EVF's combined with advances in technology will lead to the decline and eventual disappearance of shuttered/mirrored DSLR's. My guess is that as soon as either of the big players jumps, the other will follow.
 
I can only speak for me but there is no mirrorless camera that could adequately replace my D4 and D800. Once it gets to the stage there is, and it is made by Nikon, I will jump on board.
Your absolutely right in performance terms and handing terms (not iq) there isn't a csc that can match your D4. When there is however it won't be made by either Nikon or Canon as they simply haven't gotton off the starting blocks yet in this area.
 
Always good fun with this kind of threads! Speaking from a P&S upgrader (v.tiny sensor Olympus something>LX5>m43), I tried several DSLRs and can't find a reason to accept them as an upgrade of any sort (except for sensor size) over mirrorless. OVF compared to seeing how the picture will actually look? You must be kidding. Battery life? The average mirrorless shoots say 3-400 pictures. Ok, less than a DSLR, but remind me, how many film rolls you carried on an average outing with your SLR? I am not speaking of pro use though, just from an amateur point of view.

This looks like the discussions of late 19th century of sail vs. steam.
 
Crikey! I'm genuinely interested how many photos you take at a wedding. I have done 2 weddings recently for friends and I took about 500 but that included the pre wedding and dozens of shots at the reception. In the end I was taking photos of drunks just for the amusement.

Between 1500 and 2000. Depends how much is going on! Usually there for between 10-14 hours.
 
So not 10 batteries, more like 5.

Be generous, call it six - three for each body.


(I've just had a look back at DL's "what's in the bag" blog post - if there's already a battery in each body, then there's five spares in the bag and some of those are a couple of years old, so past their best)
 
Usually 1500-2000. It can be more and you have to account for this. Then you need backups in case of failure. 8-9 is the minimum really.

So 2x CSCs with grips on a normal day should cover you. Add another 2-3 batteries in a bag for spare and failure. Heck call it 4 and you can load the grips with a fresh set each.
 
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If you're sticking grips on you may as well get a DSLR. And no "should cover you", I'm talking about shooting weddings. We can't have guessing games.

8 batteries, 3000 shots. 1 change per camera. You normally shoot 1500-2000. Thats covered for failure and or another 1000 shots.

Why would you get a DSLR? The camera is still smaller and lighter and has much smaller lenses. I think the point is that battery life isnt as much of an issue as some make it out to be.
 
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8 batteries, 3000 shots. You normally shoot 1500-2000. Thats covered for failure and or another 1000 shots.

Why would you get a DSLR? The camera is still smaller and lighter and has much smaller lenses. I think the point is that battery life isnt as much of an issue as some make it out to be.

An A7R has a 340 shot cycle. I make that 9 batteries. But there is no and/or, only and. You have to account for the extremes - can't just say to a couple "sorry you had a lot going on at your wedding butI had a few batteries fail so can't take any more photos".

I will probably buy a mirrorless for street and personal photography, maybe even as a backup to my current equipment. I do like them, but I can see why a lot of pros aren't completely embracing them and ditching their DSLRs.
 
My A7 got over 400 shots on a cycle, so do my Fujis, they generally get more shots to a cycle than they are rated.

But you could carry as many extras as you like for your own piece of mind as they are tiny (doesnt mean you will always be using them), just like you wont know how many dslr batteries will fail.

Anyway, I can also understand why a lot of pros arent using them, batterys in my mind arent an issue as there are bigger issues that need ironing out, like AF tracking and certain models build quality.
 
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Your absolutely right in performance terms and handing terms (not iq) there isn't a csc that can match your D4. When there is however it won't be made by either Nikon or Canon as they simply haven't gotton off the starting blocks yet in this area.

I would say you should watch this space - just because they haven't released anything of note yet doesn't mean they aren't working on mirrorless cameras.
 
I think they would find it difficult to launch a product however good into a market that's already very well saturated with quality mirrorless cameras. Canikon are simply too far behind at this stage, like sony in dslr terms.
 
I think they would find it difficult to launch a product however good into a market that's already very well saturated with quality mirrorless cameras. Canikon are simply too far behind at this stage, like sony in dslr terms.

But it's not saturated with quality mirrorless cameras. It's saturated with cameras that aren't as good as dSLRs. They all lack decent AF, don't have the image quality of high end SLRs and don't have access to the fantastic range of Canon and Nikon lenses.

There will be professional grade mirrorless cameras and they will be launched by both Canon and Nikon.
 
Sorry if this has been answered previously, but how much smaller are they than say a D3s,physically I mean?
 
My thoughts are a confused market: at one end trying to push everyone from APS-C to full frame and at the other to m43, and with all camps declaring that their way is the best way. Both involved a certain amount of expense in a system change, so many resist it.

One person I know just got a Olympus OMD E-M5 and inside of 2 weeks is considering selling a raft of decent canon kit to swap. I called him mad, he said try it and be surprised. And that I think is the sticking point: trying it costs too much. An SLR I know, m43 I don't and trying it for long enough to know what's what means buying in (or talking someone into lending you some kit) and that's just too much for many. Lower that barrier to entry and I truly believe CSC has the ability to replace the bottom end of the DSLR market where AF speed, FPS and super telephotos don't matter. It could also replace a lot of the pro market where the rugged DSLR isn't needed and the smaller size may help, but first people need it in their hands.
 
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don't have the image quality of high end SLRs

Dont they? Sony A7r, full frame, 36MP, image quality is actually better than the D800. Fuji has arguably the best APSC image quality and that includes APSC DSLRs.
 
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But it's not saturated with quality mirrorless cameras. It's saturated with cameras that aren't as good as dSLRs. They all lack decent AF, don't have the image quality of high end SLRs and don't have access to the fantastic range of Canon and Nikon lenses.

There will be professional grade mirrorless cameras and they will be launched by both Canon and Nikon.

Historically Fuji have always made good glass, and the current 14mm and 35mm are outstanding lenses. Also the Fuji IQ is excellent. I can't comment on other CSCs as I don't own them, but I have several Fuji's. I'd agree the AF isn't great, especially for mobile targets! (so at the moment mirrorless are more suited to certain types of photography), and the range of lenses isn't as comprehensive as Canon/Nikon. And we also don't really know how rugged these cameras are, but with less moving parts they should be pretty good. Also their current low light capability isn't quite up to that of professional cameras, but at least the equal of the next range down.

Canon seem a bit confused at the moment about this segment, the M and M2 (or lack of the latter in W. Europe) suggest they don't quite know where to turn.

There is a place for both types of camera, and really it's down to the individual photographer as to what suits them and their style best. For me it's been a revival of my interest in photography, and I just love the tactile feel of the retro Fuji's and if that makes me get out there and take more pictures then it's got to be a good thing.
 
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