Why photographers get a bad name - Donna Nook

TheNissanMan

TheNissanMan

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I'm currently chilling in a Chinese with Stu (Cosmix3) near Donna Nook talking about the days shots and events.

Today was my first time to Donna Nook and although I absolutely love the place (there's nothing like cute White fluffy seal cubs) some of he sights were awful. the wardens were speaking to everyone trying to ensure the seals weren't harrassed when togs go on the beach after last years shocking behaviour but again this year there were muppets with both long and short lenses almost stuffing them down the seals throats! As much as I would love to come again I would rather see the place closed down rather than see the seals harassed during calving season. Yet again a small few ruining it for the majority. Am sure me or stu will be posting some shots tomorrow, as well as the seal shots.
 
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Have to agree, after last year didn't think I would see it again, but some where just ad bad, have my shots to post once back tomorrow.
 
Disgracefull behaviour - these people are just chavs. Genuine wildlife photographers will put the welfare of the ceature before all else.
 
arclight said:
Snip...... Genuine wildlife photographers will put the welfare of the ceature before all else.
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This is true, but the unfortunate thing in, it is going to spoil it for them as well, as if the waders are successful and get the beach closed by the RAF, nobody will have the chance to enjoy the magnificence of these animals in there habitat.
 
2 of my shots

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yes you are missing something.:eek:
 
Crazyhorse said:
Bloody disgusting. I'd have given her what for when she came away from that pup. The silly bitch.:wacky::wacky:

Lisa
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Was tempted, but decided it was not worth the row, the waders where speaking to everyone who went on the beach, some just don't care.
 
Dal said:
Sickening? really? I can't see how she is causing any distress to the animal! Or am I missing something here :shrug:
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Just take a look at the gear she's wearing.... The hat & those boots :puke:
 
Dal said:
Sickening? really? I can't see how she is causing any distress to the animal! Or am I missing something here :shrug:
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Think you may be, this sort of thing was happening last year, and speaking with the wardens, there was a rise in fatalities of the cubs, the mums are know to abandon them if people are this close.
 
cosmix3 said:
.... and speaking with the wardens, there was a rise in fatalities of the cubs, the mums are know to abandon them if people are this close.
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Out of curiousity :thinking: why didn't the wardens say something to them then if thats the case :shrug:
 
Trig's said:
Out of curiousity :thinking: why didn't the wardens say something to them then if thats the case :shrug:
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They where, but are limited in what they can do, as the land is RAF owned.
 
cosmix3 said:
Think you may be, this sort of thing was happening last year, and speaking with the wardens, there was a rise in fatalities of the cubs, the mums are know to abandon them if people are this close.
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Ah right, that makes it clearer now. The OP didn't make that clear.

Was that women told not too get too close then?
 
Dal said:
Ah right, that makes it clearer now. The OP didn't make that clear.

Was that women told not too get too close then?
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Yep, as we all where and also they would prefer you didn't go out at all.
 
As it is an RAF owned Beach the volunteers can unfortunately do next to nothing although they try.

The guys are there in all weathers every day and this weekend were speaking to every person with a camera to try and persuade them not to go on the beach as due to the negligence of the few there has been a proven increase in the death rate of the cubs.

It is possible to get some absolutely cracking shots from a distance with the right kit but unfortunately the minority are again ruining it for the rest of us!

Everybody likes the fluffy whites but unfortunately sites like the following are becoming more common, PLEASE DO NOT SCROLL DOWN IF YOU DON'T LIKE DEAD ANIMALS!



















I understand that young will die of natural causes but if an increase in deaths due to human intervention is taking place, surely it would be better for humans to steer clear...

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swag72 said:
Just out of interest - Can you be sure that the picture you posted is due to human intervention?
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Not at all, but from speaknig to the wardens the numbers are increasing year on year in line with the number of togs approaching the seals...

There really is no need for people to get as close as they do, especially as they are being warned. I was speaking to the wardens this morning and even members of The Wildlife Trust themselves are turning to the wardens, giving them the cold shoulder and going onto the dunes anyway!

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TheNissanMan said:
Not at all, but from speaknig to the wardens the numbers are increasing year on year in line with the number of togs approaching the seals...

There really is no need for people to get as close as they do, especially as they are being warned. I was speaking to the wardens this morning and even members of The Wildlife Trust themselves are turning to the wardens, giving them the cold shoulder and going onto the dunes anyway!
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With the picture posted with this post/quote - I'd like to see just how fast that they can grab their gear and run if that seal turns :LOL:

:thinking: Saying that I'd bet they'd have something to say if it did...
 
The seals can runquicker than we can (apparently) so would love to be he one to capture that on camera :)

Of course I would also do the responsible thing and check they were ok after, the seal that is :LOL:
 
TheNissanMan said:
The seals can runquicker than we can (apparently) so would love to be he one to capture that on camera :)

Of course I would also do the responsible thing and check they were ok after, the seal that is :LOL:
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Totally agree & just to see the distressed look on their face as well & blown up to show their expression :LOL:
 
I am sure I will get flamed for this, but what the hell.

cosmix3 said:
Think you may be, this sort of thing was happening last year, and speaking with the wardens, there was a rise in fatalities of the cubs, the mums are know to abandon them if people are this close.
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If that is the case then the viewing area should be off limits as well as there were a number of pups there on Saturday much closer to people than that, some were within 12" of the noisy crowds.

I saw that lady on the beach as well, although she was closer than I would have got, the pup was paying no interest and no signs of consern, she was also not seperating it from it's mother. She seemed to be staying around 6' from the pup.
The pups are at far greater risk from the adults, I saw one come within mm's of getting crushed buy a large male chasing a female.

For the most nearly everyone was being considerate of the seals, apart from the dress code, but it was cold, and of course that lady in Pink who although she had a camera felt it necessary to keep taking pics on her phone as well!

Worst thing I saw was the seal with the fishing net round it's neck cutting right through the skin and fat.

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No matter what is posted on forums, no matter what hysteria the wardens try to spread at the entrance to be beach, I will still go to see the seals out on the beach, as I am sure many others on here will also do.
 
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c75mitch said:
No matter what is posted on forums, no matter what hysteria the wardens try to spread at the entrance to be beach, I will still go to see the seals out on the beach, as I am sure many others on here will also do.
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It's that sort of attitude that will get the area closed off for everybody. Who is better situated to know how togs are affecting the seals than the wardens? If they say there is even a small chance of causing further pup deaths then it's surely best to stay off the beach?

Some pups are killed by the adults, but that is natural and they've survived for millions of years with that happening.

I'll be going to Donna Nook this weekend, but I will not be going onto the beach, there is simply no need to.
 
Herb said:
It's that sort of attitude that will get the area closed off for everybody. Who is better situated to know how togs are affecting the seals than the wardens? If they say there is even a small chance of causing further pup deaths then it's surely best to stay off the beach?
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Why?, I am causing no harm to the animals, I am not chasing them round the beach, getting too close or chasing the mothers away from the pups. For the most part I pay little attention to the pups, in fact 90% of my photos were of the adults playing and/or fighting in the surf, which is the main reason I go. Out on the beach I only saw perhaps 5 or 6 pups. Just seeing a few adults and pups in the viewing area lying there doing nothing is only a very small part of what Donna Nook has to offer. If you're happy to go there for that, then that is you prerogative, that is not the reason I go.

As for the Wardens know best, well who's to know. For the most part they are untrained volunteers. Pups deaths will naturally fluctuate. Deaths from natural abandonment by first time mothers, killings by other seals, deaths from sickness, severe weather conditions and even still births vary every year. I am sure that they cannot show any evidence that proves photographers walking on the beach are causing the deaths of pups just the same as they have no real idea how may pups die each year from natural causes. As for knowing deaths increase with the amount of photographers going on the beach, very debatable.

I do agree about keeping a reasonable distance from the seals and that is why use my 600mm lens instead of the 400mm, but I do not agree that the beach should be off limits and will continue to visit.
 
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Well good, I'm not saying it's you personally that is causing the problem, but I should clarify my point. It's the "No matter what..." that causes the problems, IF someone did have proof and showed you it, you are saying you would still continue?

The fact is, some photographers DO get too close, causing pups to be abandoned, those "untrained volunteers" will witness the pups slowly starve to death long after the togs have left. I run a conservation project (not seals) for half the year, and its generally the volunteers who know best.
 
There is definitely sense it what c75mitch is saying, i went yesterday, and behind the fence people were getting right up in the face of a little young pup which was lying along the fence, and there was a big noisy crowd around it, tbh i don't really see why the wardens didn't tell the people in the crowd to stand back a bit since they are discouraging beach goers? And this crowd was far closer than that woman in cosmix3's photo. Perhaps its different because the pup at the fence has always been used to it, but it could only be a few days old surely? But i agree with Herbs point above, i just like to play devils advocate really to try and learn more myself! :D

But I don't have a particular one sided opinion on this, i don't think i have enough info or knowledge on the subject to form one :)
 
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Herb said:
It's that sort of attitude that will get the area closed off for everybody. Who is better situated to know how togs are affecting the seals than the wardens? If they say there is even a small chance of causing further pup deaths then it's surely best to stay off the beach?

Some pups are killed by the adults, but that is natural and they've survived for millions of years with that happening.

I'll be going to Donna Nook this weekend, but I will not be going onto the beach, there is simply no need to.
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I won't comment on the Donna Nook wardens never having met any, but I'm afraid many of the ones I have met would be hard pressed to tie their own shoe laces never mind know about the wildlife in their area.
Many are glorified security guards.
 
I think they need to define how close is too close whether it be out on the beach or by the fenced off nursery area, put some signs up and do their best to enforce it hopefully with the RAFs backing.

I remember this time last year it go quite heated on here but there was a wildlife programme shortly afterwards ( a well known one but I cannot recall which one ) where some pups went right up to the cameraman even touching his tripod. If that is on national television then people will think six foot is more than fine. What is too close will always be subjective hence a definitive distance would be a good idea.
 
swanseamale47 said:
I won't comment on the Donna Nook wardens never having met any, but I'm afraid many of the ones I have met would be hard pressed to tie their own shoe laces never mind know about the wildlife in their area.
Many are glorified security guards.
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We spoke to a couple Rob & Dan being the two main ones, nice guys who know their stuff and friendly to boot...
 
The Chillinator said:
Looks like a prime example of today's Enviro-hippies, claiming to do good for the enviroment and our wildlife, but really making it ten times worse... :thumbsdown:
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Typical Townie treating these animals as if they were inanimate objects ,these people have little to zero knowledge of wildlife or animals in general .
Even a domesticated dog bitch with litter of pups will either guard and protect her pups from
strangers coming close or walk away from her litter indignantly .
 
I was listening to radio 4 today.. They had a bit about grey seals & the dude was saying that after a X amount of weeks the mum weens off the cubs & then leaves them to fend for themselves....

:thinking: Haven't a clue what that was to do with this thou - forgot what I was going on about now :confused:
 
To be quite frank, some on here say that wildlife photography can be done with a 200mm lens. Yes, it can, but one of the reasons that I use long lenses is for the simple fact that I do not want to get too close,I do not want to disturb things nor would I forgive myself if my presence caused any harm to the creatures I was photographing.

Some of the people pictured here and posting,defending those people need a big reality check.

IMO I hasten to add...........;)
 
The remit for most nature conservation organisations is to protect and conserve the wildlife whilst at the same time promoting conservation and encouraging people into the countryside. This is difficult to balance at times and sometimes can be counter-productive. It seems petty or obstructive to some people but the wardens have the welfare of the animals in mind.

Unfortunately, some people always know better and will carry on regardless despite best efforts to inform them of the potential issues. Some have a total disregard for wildlife and will continue with their own actions and self gratification without any consideration of any impact.

Personally I don't want to disturb the animals I photograph and if there is a chance of disturbance leading to the death of animals there is no way I would even contemplate it, regardless of whether it hadn't been entirely proven - the risk is too great.

Even if a photographer is considerate and knows what they are doing. Their presence in a situation like this is to some enough to want to copy them but without understanding to display the appropriate care or attention.

As people who care about wildlife we really should be setting an example.
 
OneTen said:
The remit for most nature conservation organisations is to protect and conserve the wildlife whilst at the same time promoting conservation and encouraging people into the countryside. This is difficult to balance at times and sometimes can be counter-productive. It seems petty or obstructive to some people but the wardens have the welfare of the animals in mind.

Unfortunately, some people always know better and will carry on regardless despite best efforts to inform them of the potential issues. Some have a total disregard for wildlife and will continue with their own actions and self gratification without any consideration of any impact.

Personally I don't want to disturb the animals I photograph and if there is a chance of disturbance leading to the death of animals there is no way I would even contemplate it, regardless of whether it hadn't been entirely proven - the risk is too great.

Even if a photographer is considerate and knows what they are doing. Their presence in a situation like this is to some enough to want to copy them but without understanding to display the appropriate care or attention.

As people who care about wildlife we really should be setting an example.
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Hear, hear.

Sometimes it only takes human scent to be left for it to be the kiss of death for young animals. Deer, in particular are very sensitive to that.
 
I can't say I'm on a particular side in this argument, while I agree that wildlife should be as disturbed as little as possible, I have to admit I don't really see the harm that woman is doing in the images. However, it's pretty obvious that some of you are passionate about your views, and seem to foot the blame at the wardens, and their lack of ability due to the RAF. Have any of you thought about getting in touch with the Station Commander at Donna Nook? Given how much the Armed Forces care about the local community and their support, I'm sure you can come to some sort of arrangement.

Out of interest, how far out from land are these shots taken? I've only visited Donna Nook once, hoping to see some NATO warbirds being used in anger.
 
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