Wolves escape..France

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SFTPhotography said:
The Internet. Its amazing what's out there in local news outlets. Start with searching bear attack pyrenees and you'll find several cases of live stock been killed, farmers are up in arms about it and a hiker attacked in Lescun. My view - total extermination is the only way.
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Indeed. Farmers, bloody nuisance, total extermination the only way. First they came for the farmers then they came for the fotografers ... . :)
 
It took pride in battering a fox to death because it came near its tent.
 
SFTPhotography said:
More importantly look up the effect of wolves on people - not many attacks but enough to pose enough concern to say they are a bad idea. Any large apex predator is and total elimination of them IMHO is the only way to ensure complete safety of human life in remote places. Deer numbers - really couldn't give a rat's ass about - they're totally safe and harmless to human life and we can co-exist with them fine and shoot the odd one or two for fun or for dinner.
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I’m not going to look it up but I bet you more people are killed by bees than wolves :(. What about cars?
 
sphexx said:
I’m not going to look it up but I bet you more people are killed by bees than wolves :(. What about cars?
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Cars are good. Bears and wolves aren't. Sadly the woke left are coming for the former not the latter

And bees make honey which tastes good. Wolf probably doesn't. I say probably as I've never eaten dog meat so I'm unqualified to answer that...
 
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Retune said:
Why not? We've already exterminated most of the other land mammals we don't farm to eat.

Estimations-of-the-total-global-biomass-organically-bound-carbon-regarding-humans-wild.png


One recent estimate of land mammal biomass puts humans at 36%, livestock at 60%, and everything else at 4%. Troll biomass was not reported.
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All this proves is that we still have work to do and our work isn't done.
 
sphexx said:
Matter of opinion, mine that they are bad.

Bears are good.

... and much else besides :(.
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You're a very miserable man. How can you not like cars. The feeling of a nicely executed gear shift, the roar of a V8 or the wail of a V10 is a joy. Never mind a nicely judged line clipping the apex through a bend is a joyful experience. A one on one with a bear is likely to end in a grizzly death (no pun intented). Hence cars are good and bears are bad.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Your sanctimony is worrying. I can hear the shrill indignation from here. Live a little, enjoy some fois gras, some veal and a spot of shooting.
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I do all that and more as it happens :).
 
SFTPhotography said:
So why object to someone stating that shooting wild wolves or bears is good?
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I‘m not against shooting as such. Well if you read what I wrote, I said shooting the escaped wolves would be justified on conservation (of European Wolf) grounds. It all depends.
 
sphexx said:
I‘m not against shooting as such. Well if you read what I wrote, I said shooting the escaped wolves would be justified on conservation (of European Wolf) grounds. It all depends.
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I think shooting or mass culls are always justified to preseve livestock and human life, even in remote places.

Google Dolomites bear attack. It happens. Extermination of these things is the only way
 
SFTPhotography said:
The Internet. Its amazing what's out there in local news outlets. Start with searching bear attack pyrenees and you'll find several cases of live stock been killed, farmers are up in arms about it and a hiker attacked in Lescun. My view - total extermination is the only way.
Click to expand...

"The internet, it's amazing what's out there." Indeed. And yeah, I think we all get what your view is by now.

I googled 'bear attack Lescun" and "ours Lescun," and got nothing about attacks aside from a Times article about an encounter in Val d'Aran (a long way away from Lescun). I was in the Pyrenees when the Val' d'Aran incident happened and heard about it. Broadly what I heard was that the guy (with his son iirc) came face to face with a bear on a trail and had to climb down into a gorge to avoid it. The bear (some versions had the bear with a cub) just wandered by. Usually what happens is someone sees a bear from a distance and by the time the story has reached the papers the bear has rabies and a machine gun. If you can provide information of a hiker being attacked near Lescun (there are two males there, joined by (I think) 2 females as of last year) I'd be genuinely very interested. Please note that seeing a bear or even being charged by one is not an attack, like someone calling you a repetitive troll and internet tough guy isn't an assault.

You are not entirely wrong about livestock predation but your reporting reeks of having heard it from a taxi driver or someone in the pub, or more likely moulded up to suit your own preoccupations.

FYI, bears were not 'introduced' to the Pyrenees, rather the tiny remnant population of native bears (<10 c.20 years ago) was augmented by more bears from Slovenia being released in various batches. There are now c.50-70 bears in the Pyrenees, enough now that occasionally, though very rarely, people see one. They almost always run like hell. It is however true that they occasionally prey on livestock. I've never heard of a bear chasing sheep off cliffs though, a bear can catch a sheep with ease in a very short distance. There was one bear in Ariege which almost certainly chased a horse off a cliff, and another called Franska who killed and ate quite a few sheep, cattle and horses during 2006 in the Ossau area. But this level of predation is aberrant and Franska was subsequently shot, legally. Many locals and most farmers are indeed very anti-bear, graffiti on the roads attest to this but then anyone can go out with a spray can and after a busy night of painting give the impression that whatever they write is a widely held or majority view. The French farmers of course do have a point, they would rather live off the animals they raise than from the government compensation they get every time a cow gets eaten, but this is a separate issue from bears being dangerous to humans. There are also many people in the Pyrenees who like having bears there, mainly as they are emblematic of the place, are a native animal and a wilderness sterilised by removing everything that is inconvenient is of no value.

Re attitudes to bears in general, a couple of years ago I did a xc ski trip in northern Finland/Karelia in an area known for its population of big brown bears (400kg+). Of course they were all hibernating when I was there. I asked a park ranger about the feasibility of coming back in the summer to photograph them. She said, "You almost certainly won't see one, they're extremely timid." A refreshing change from the gun/spray carrying attitudes of North Americans and the terrified paranoia of brits who have grown up in a sterile environment where badgers are alpha predators. I did meet an English couple last year in Cauterets who were carrying pepper spray in case of meeting a bear, but they are the only people I have ever met who had given it a second thought, and it wasn't putting them off.

------

In general reply to everyone, the biggest issue with the escaped park wolves is likely that they will have little to no fear or suspicion of humans. They will not have the hunting expertise their wild cousins have so livestock will be a lot more attractive to them, and the presence of the berger will not trouble them. The Alps (and all of continental Europe) already have a well established wolf population which has appeared and increased rapidly over the past couple of decades. Walk through any alpine pastures and you will see signs warning of Patou, the huge white Pyrenean dogs which guard the sheep. 20 years ago you never saw them in the Alps, they are everywhere now. A good friend is involved in wolf conservation in the Alps and is of the view that while hunting them should be kept illegal, farmers ought to be permitted to shoot them on pasture, partly to protect the livestock but also to teach the very clever wolves that humans are dangerous. Wolf attacks on humans are so rare that they are barely worth consideration. I've seen a wolf close up in Switzerland and from c.70m in the Pyrenees, and I still have my arms and legs. The one in the Pyrenees watched me for a good 15 minutes as I walked by, the worst bit is that I only had a 24mm lens :(

There have been studies carried out regarding the feasibility of wolf reintroduction in Scotland, one on Rum and others on the mainland. The result of the Rum study was that the island was not big enough to sustain a healthy population and I believe that the biggest issue with the mainland is the absence of extensive native forest and mixed woodland.
 
Stuart_65 said:
"The internet, it's amazing what's out there." Indeed. And yeah, I think we all get what your view is by now.

I googled 'bear attack Lescun" and "ours Lescun," and got nothing about attacks aside from a Times article about an encounter in Val d'Aran (a long way away from Lescun). I was in the Pyrenees when the Val' d'Aran incident happened and heard about it. Broadly what I heard was that the guy (with his son iirc) came face to face with a bear on a trail and had to climb down into a gorge to avoid it. The bear (some versions had the bear with a cub) just wandered by. Usually what happens is someone sees a bear from a distance and by the time the story has reached the papers the bear has rabies and a machine gun. If you can provide information of a hiker being attacked near Lescun (there are two males there, joined by (I think) 2 females as of last year) I'd be genuinely very interested. Please note that seeing a bear or even being charged by one is not an attack, like someone calling you a repetitive troll and internet tough guy isn't an assault.

You are not entirely wrong about livestock predation but your reporting reeks of having heard it from a taxi driver or someone in the pub, or more likely moulded up to suit your own preoccupations.

FYI, bears were not 'introduced' to the Pyrenees, rather the tiny remnant population of native bears (
Re attitudes to bears in general, a couple of years ago I did a xc ski trip in northern Finland/Karelia in an area known for its population of big brown bears (400kg+). Of course they were all hibernating when I was there. I asked a park ranger about the feasibility of coming back in the summer to photograph them. She said, "You almost certainly won't see one, they're extremely timid." A refreshing change from the gun/spray carrying attitudes of North Americans and the terrified paranoia of brits who have grown up in a sterile environment where badgers are alpha predators. I did meet an English couple last year in Cauterets who were carrying pepper spray in case of meeting a bear, but they are the only people I have ever met who had given it a second thought, and it wasn't putting them off.

------

In general reply to everyone, the biggest issue with the escaped park wolves is likely that they will have little to no fear or suspicion of humans. They will not have the hunting expertise their wild cousins have so livestock will be a lot more attractive to them, and the presence of the berger will not trouble them. The Alps (and all of continental Europe) already have a well established wolf population which has appeared and increased rapidly over the past couple of decades. Walk through any alpine pastures and you will see signs warning of Patou, the huge white Pyrenean dogs which guard the sheep. 20 years ago you never saw them in the Alps, they are everywhere now. A good friend is involved in wolf conservation in the Alps and is of the view that while hunting them should be kept illegal, farmers ought to be permitted to shoot them on pasture, partly to protect the livestock but also to teach the very clever wolves that humans are dangerous. Wolf attacks on humans are so rare that they are barely worth consideration. I've seen a wolf close up in Switzerland and from c.70m in the Pyrenees, and I still have my arms and legs. The one in the Pyrenees watched me for a good 15 minutes as I walked by, the worst bit is that I only had a 24mm lens :(

There have been studies carried out regarding the feasibility of wolf reintroduction in Scotland, one on Rum and others on the mainland. The result of the Rum study was that the island was not big enough to sustain a healthy population and I believe that the biggest issue with the mainland is the absence of extensive native forest and mixed woodland.
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That isn't what happened at all at Val D'Aran. It was a close call and the fact a bear is on a well worn hiking trail indicates they will come near people. You're right though - it wasn't lescun

Here is what actually happened

www.thelocal.fr

‘My life flashed before my eyes’: French hiker survives bear attack

A young French mountaineer has told the terrifying story of how he survived being chased by a bear in the Spanish Pyrenees.
www.thelocal.fr www.thelocal.fr

Further more if there is fierce opposition from the people that actually live and work there to the bears being "reintroduced" doesn't that tell you something. Their forebears rid the area of them for a reason.

I'll be carrying pepper spray when I'm back. I didn't know there was as many as 50 to 70. Id carry a gun of course but unlike our American brethren we aren't allowed them in UK or EU countries

French mayor bans mountain walks after bear attacks

The mayor of a commune in southwestern France announced the ban after a number of bear attacks on local livestock.
www.connexionfrance.com www.connexionfrance.com

www.bbc.com

Spain alarmed by French bear's attacks on sheep

France released two brown bears in the Pyrenees - but one has now killed eight sheep in Spain.
www.bbc.com

Thankfully the locals are getting on with it.

phys.org

Third bear killed in Pyrenees this year

A hunter shot dead a female brown bear in the Spanish Pyrenees at the weekend, the regional authorities said, raising to three the number killed this year on the mountain range dividing Spain and France.
phys.org phys.org

And here is why. Hateful news source

www.theguardian.com

Bear chases 200 sheep over cliff edge to their deaths

French farmers hit out at reintroduction programme of brown bears in Pyrenees after incident on Spanish border
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com


apnews.com

Grrrrr! Angry herders secure bear ban from France's Macron

PARIS (AP) — The bears have cute names — Bubble, Feather, Snowflake and the like — and look so soft and huggable when <a href="https://youtu...
apnews.com apnews.com

Lots of info out there to show they are, in actual fact a menace
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
Better than a hammer I suppose....although I would love to see you trying to attack a bear with a hammer....
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www.web24.news

A mayor of the Pyrenees prohibits hiking for fear of bear attacks

Invoking a threat to men, the mayor of Ustou has prohibited hiking in the sectors, bordering Spain, which overlook the Cirque de Cagateille, very popular with walkers this season. © BENOIT BACOU / …
www.web24.news www.web24.news

Definitely getting a bear spray and big hunting knife. A gun would be my preference but it'll have to do.
 
Stuart_65 said:
"The internet, it's amazing what's out there." Indeed. And yeah, I think we all get what your view is by now.

I googled 'bear attack Lescun" and "ours Lescun," and got nothing about attacks aside from a Times article about an encounter in Val d'Aran (a long way away from Lescun). I was in the Pyrenees when the Val' d'Aran incident happened and heard about it. Broadly what I heard was that the guy (with his son iirc) came face to face with a bear on a trail and had to climb down into a gorge to avoid it. The bear (some versions had the bear with a cub) just wandered by. Usually what happens is someone sees a bear from a distance and by the time the story has reached the papers the bear has rabies and a machine gun. If you can provide information of a hiker being attacked near Lescun (there are two males there, joined by (I think) 2 females as of last year) I'd be genuinely very interested. Please note that seeing a bear or even being charged by one is not an attack, like someone calling you a repetitive troll and internet tough guy isn't an assault.

You are not entirely wrong about livestock predation but your reporting reeks of having heard it from a taxi driver or someone in the pub, or more likely moulded up to suit your own preoccupations.

FYI, bears were not 'introduced' to the Pyrenees, rather the tiny remnant population of native bears (<10 c.20 years ago) was augmented by more bears from Slovenia being released in various batches. There are now c.50-70 bears in the Pyrenees, enough now that occasionally, though very rarely, people see one. They almost always run like hell. It is however true that they occasionally prey on livestock. I've never heard of a bear chasing sheep off cliffs though, a bear can catch a sheep with ease in a very short distance. There was one bear in Ariege which almost certainly chased a horse off a cliff, and another called Franska who killed and ate quite a few sheep, cattle and horses during 2006 in the Ossau area. But this level of predation is aberrant and Franska was subsequently shot, legally. Many locals and most farmers are indeed very anti-bear, graffiti on the roads attest to this but then anyone can go out with a spray can and after a busy night of painting give the impression that whatever they write is a widely held or majority view. The French farmers of course do have a point, they would rather live off the animals they raise than from the government compensation they get every time a cow gets eaten, but this is a separate issue from bears being dangerous to humans. There are also many people in the Pyrenees who like having bears there, mainly as they are emblematic of the place, are a native animal and a wilderness sterilised by removing everything that is inconvenient is of no value.

Re attitudes to bears in general, a couple of years ago I did a xc ski trip in northern Finland/Karelia in an area known for its population of big brown bears (400kg+). Of course they were all hibernating when I was there. I asked a park ranger about the feasibility of coming back in the summer to photograph them. She said, "You almost certainly won't see one, they're extremely timid." A refreshing change from the gun/spray carrying attitudes of North Americans and the terrified paranoia of brits who have grown up in a sterile environment where badgers are alpha predators. I did meet an English couple last year in Cauterets who were carrying pepper spray in case of meeting a bear, but they are the only people I have ever met who had given it a second thought, and it wasn't putting them off.

------

In general reply to everyone, the biggest issue with the escaped park wolves is likely that they will have little to no fear or suspicion of humans. They will not have the hunting expertise their wild cousins have so livestock will be a lot more attractive to them, and the presence of the berger will not trouble them. The Alps (and all of continental Europe) already have a well established wolf population which has appeared and increased rapidly over the past couple of decades. Walk through any alpine pastures and you will see signs warning of Patou, the huge white Pyrenean dogs which guard the sheep. 20 years ago you never saw them in the Alps, they are everywhere now. A good friend is involved in wolf conservation in the Alps and is of the view that while hunting them should be kept illegal, farmers ought to be permitted to shoot them on pasture, partly to protect the livestock but also to teach the very clever wolves that humans are dangerous. Wolf attacks on humans are so rare that they are barely worth consideration. I've seen a wolf close up in Switzerland and from c.70m in the Pyrenees, and I still have my arms and legs. The one in the Pyrenees watched me for a good 15 minutes as I walked by, the worst bit is that I only had a 24mm lens :(

There have been studies carried out regarding the feasibility of wolf reintroduction in Scotland, one on Rum and others on the mainland. The result of the Rum study was that the island was not big enough to sustain a healthy population and I believe that the biggest issue with the mainland is the absence of extensive native forest and mixed woodland.
Click to expand...
All good. Regarding reintroduction of wolves to Scotland. I forget the name of the well-known estate but the man (MFI heir?) advocating it wanted to fence a very large area for ‘re-wilding’ and wolf introduction but fell foul of ramblers & Scotland’s ‘right to roam‘ equivalent (more than equivalent, but again I don’t know it’s name).
 
sphexx said:
All good. Regarding reintroduction of wolves to Scotland. I forget the name of the well-known estate but the man (MFI heir?) advocating it wanted to fence a very large area for ‘re-wilding’ and wolf introduction but fell foul of ramblers & Scotland’s ‘right to roam‘ equivalent (more than equivalent, but again I don’t know it’s name).
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Thankfully that never went ahead. There's no way they could adequately guarantee that the wolves wouldn't a) escape the enclosure b) someone wouldn't encounter the thing.

If the Gaurdianista animal lover wokists want these things here like in the US then we as a general population need armed, like they are in the US. Gun rights go hand in hand with animal rights.


sentientmedia.org

Who Killed Cachou? Brown Bear’s Unusual Death Ignites Controversy

As with many other human-wildlife conflicts, this story involves the usual suspects: livestock farmers, environmental organizations, and a regional government caught in between.
sentientmedia.org sentientmedia.org

Just shoot the thing already. Other than satisfy a few wokist WWF hippie types what good has bringing bears back actually brought. They bring no benefit. Just harm and destruction.
 
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SFTPhotography said:
www.web24.news

A mayor of the Pyrenees prohibits hiking for fear of bear attacks

Invoking a threat to men, the mayor of Ustou has prohibited hiking in the sectors, bordering Spain, which overlook the Cirque de Cagateille, very popular with walkers this season. © BENOIT BACOU / …
www.web24.news www.web24.news

Definitely getting a bear spray and big hunting knife. A gun would be my preference but it'll have to do.
Click to expand...
You obviously haven’t watched any of those wildlife programs about Bears in Alaska & Kamchatka (which make European Brown Bears look like pussies. If people are going through dense brush in ‘Bear Country’ they make a lot of noise and sing out to tell any bear they are coming rather than carry a fairly useless spray — if a bear was really attacking you she’d get you you before you’d deployed your poxy little spray. And there’s plenty of film of bears & biologists & wildlife photographers in close proximity with no harm coming to either -- not saying it doesn’t happen, but it’s rare,
 
SFTPhotography said:
www.web24.news

A mayor of the Pyrenees prohibits hiking for fear of bear attacks

Invoking a threat to men, the mayor of Ustou has prohibited hiking in the sectors, bordering Spain, which overlook the Cirque de Cagateille, very popular with walkers this season. © BENOIT BACOU / …
www.web24.news www.web24.news

Definitely getting a bear spray and big hunting knife. A gun would be my preference but it'll have to do.
Click to expand...
He’s probably a truffle hunter protecting his truffles or other fungi :).
 
It must be true because it's in a paper. Were you actually there? I've no doubt that some sort of scary interaction went on, it's no secret that bears have killed people, and it is almost certainly a matter of time before it happens again.

I can assure you that not everyone who lives there is anti bear, though the mort aux ours brigade do make a lot more noise and do a lot more road painting. My impression is that there is a large majority who are unconcerned about bears, but with sympathy for the farmers. The only local Pyrenean I've met (out of hundreds) who expressed any fear of bears was coincidentally a paranoid moron who drank too much floc and suspected this neighbours of stealing his dope plants. As far as hikers/mountaineers (me) go if they can't deal with the presence of bears then they should go elsewhere. If I thought I was ever going to see a bear there, and I actively look for them, I'd buy lottery tickets as well. But then I only spend a couple of months there every year (for the past two decades) so what the hell do I know.

I hope you don't end up shooting one, I wouldn't fancy your chances in court with this thread as character evidence.

I was going to suggest the Alps instead if you're afraid of bears, but they are literally moving with old ladies with big noses.
 
sphexx said:
You obviously haven’t watched any of those wildlife programs about Bears in Alaska & Kamchatka (which make European Brown Bears look like pussies. If people are going through dense brush in ‘Bear Country’ they make a lot of noise and sing out to tell any bear they are coming rather than carry a fairly useless spray — if a bear was really attacking you she’d get you you before you’d deployed your poxy little spray. And there’s plenty of film of bears & biologists & wildlife photographers in close proximity with no harm coming to either -- not saying it doesn’t happen, but it’s rare,
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Rare means it happens.

It doesn't need to as they could be hunted to extinction. What good do they bring? What benefit? Nothing other than pleasing some unwashed green peace student vegan type
 
sphexx said:
All good. Regarding reintroduction of wolves to Scotland. I forget the name of the well-known estate but the man (MFI heir?) advocating it wanted to fence a very large area for ‘re-wilding’ and wolf introduction but fell foul of ramblers & Scotland’s ‘right to roam‘ equivalent (more than equivalent, but again I don’t know it’s name).
Click to expand...

Paul Lister, Alladale estate. The Rights of Way Society, Ramblers, Mountaineering Scotland (then the Mountaineering Council of Scotland) all weighed in on access grounds, rightly so in my view as him fencing off a huge area, irrespective if he meant well, could set a dangerous precedent elsewhere in Scotland re access rights. I get the impression that Lister is hamstrung by the wealthy heir's inability to acknowledge truths which don't suit him. I may be being unfair, he did commission a lot of experience led study to support his aims, even if he didn't always get the results he wanted. There is a lot of good in what he is trying to do, but it would only work on a national level. What he was going to end up creating was essentially a safari park/wildlife reserve which looks a bit like a half-baked vanity project.
 
Stuart_65 said:
It must be true because it's in a paper. Were you actually there? I've no doubt that some sort of scary interaction went on, it's no secret that bears have killed people, and it is almost certainly a matter of time before it happens again.

I can assure you that not everyone who lives there is anti bear, though the mort aux ours brigade do make a lot more noise and do a lot more road painting. My impression is that there is a large majority who are unconcerned about bears, but with sympathy for the farmers. The only local Pyrenean I've met (out of hundreds) who expressed any fear of bears was coincidentally a paranoid moron who drank too much floc and suspected this neighbours of stealing his dope plants. As far as hikers/mountaineers (me) go if they can't deal with the presence of bears then they should go elsewhere. If I thought I was ever going to see a bear there, and I actively look for them, I'd buy lottery tickets as well. But then I only spend a couple of months there every year (for the past two decades) so what the hell do I know.

I hope you don't end up shooting one, I wouldn't fancy your chances in court with this thread as character evidence.

I was going to suggest the Alps instead if you're afraid of bears, but they are literally moving with old ladies with big noses.
Click to expand...
Were you actually there. Was it actually you? Ill go with the several news sources rather than an animal lover on the Web.

You say it is a matter of time before someone is killed by one there. I agree. So why on earth reintroduce them. Its madness. In an area thats popular with walkers, hikers, mountaineers it seems complete lunacy - and the risk to agriculture is very real. And what actual benefit to the area do they bring? Not one thing.

I've been going a month a year for a while now. I've yet to encounter one and am grateful I haven't. And if someone hypothetically shot one they'd never see inside a court. They'll never catch them. Sadly I'm not armed so I wouldn't get the opportunity.
 
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