Woo client trouble

Where do I go? Two options.....

i - go completely up front and do a re-shoot FOC - give whatever excuse you like. None is good enough, saying you really are NOT happy with the results.

ii - argue, sensitively, that what they have is plenty good enough (as proofs)for what they want and what you were briefed for.... explain that they are only proofs and not the final copy. Noise will be there regardless of what the state of the lens :(

From what I've seen there's only a couple of dodgy ones and even then the deficiencies would get lost in newsprint (dunno about glossy mags though).

Stop giving the guy a hard time.... we've all made mistakes. Where's our support? He needs our help, not for us to knock his confidence.

We have all made mistakes. Even the great and lowly. "Where do we go from here?" is a lot better than a sharp intake of breath and the completely fatuous statement, "I wouldn't have done it like that!"
 
I'd gladly go back and reshoot. As people say, its about making them happy. I'm just not sure that its possible as it was at a college. Plus I feel suggesting that would show that I feel the images aren't good. I don't think they'd be using them for A1 as its all for this prospectus.

I'm re-editing 267 images using Aperture's sharpening which does seem to do a better job at keeping the noise down. Then I'll give them a cd with these images on, watermarked, but so they can view them at 100% if need be. I still feel thats really unusual for this work.

dazzajl said:
You sit down and work out how much you need to spend to get the kit you need to get it right first time, every time and find a way to make that happen.

Then you work out how much you need to charge to allow you the time to provide results you're happy with.

Then... and this is the most important bit. You don't take jobs for less than that which result in a need to compromise your quality.
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I've already done that. I felt that dropping the post production fee was so I could get my foot in the door. They had a budget and weren't expecting my fee, which was understandable. Next time they'll know, if there is a next time. I also did think I had the kit for the job. The past 3 shoots seem to have proven otherwise.

dod said:
In honesty Pete what you have is a dissatisfied customer and that can be costly. It doesn't matter if you charged a premium or did the job for free. At the end of it he/she is unhappy with the results.

That leaves you with a couple of choices.

1. Tell them the shots are fit for purpose and live with the bad PR
2. Sit down with him, agree exactly what is required, and reshoot to that spec.

Both have upsides and downsides. First leaves you with him badmouthing you to every one. Second leaves you a bit down on time but hopefully with your rep intact.
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I will suggest that, but I don't trust my lens so how can I do another shoot with it? If I had the money I'd buy a Canon 24-70 tomorrow.
 
wanting to keep out of this but

"we werent totally happy with the first set of picture so after talking it through with the photographer he put some more time into it and we really got the results we wanted, we would definetly work with him in the future"

or

"we werent totally happy with the first set of pictures but after talking this through with the photographer he wasnt prepared to help us out, we are not happy and i dont think we'll be hiring him again"


which ones gonna net you more business from either the same client (colleges publish new perspectus' every year so they might become a return customer) or through word of mouth...... i.e which is the course of action which will make better business sense..
 
chuckles said:
Where do I go? Two options.....

i - go completely up front and do a re-shoot FOC - give whatever excuse you like. None is good enough, saying you really are NOT happy with the results.

ii - argue, sensitively, that what they have is plenty good enough (as proofs)for what they want and what you were briefed for.... explain that they are only proofs and not the final copy. Noise will be there regardless of what the state of the lens :(

From what I've seen there's only a couple of dodgy ones and even then the deficiencies would get lost in newsprint (dunno about glossy mags though).

Stop giving the guy a hard time.... we've all made mistakes. Where's our support? He needs our help, not for us to knock his confidence.

We have all made mistakes. Even the great and lowly. "Where do we go from here?" is a lot better than a sharp intake of breath and the completely fatuous statement, "I wouldn't have done it like that!"
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I'll give them these 260 odd images to peruse and say that from what I saw the images weren't going to be bigger than A5 so sharpening them for that size would cause a bit of acceptable nosie imho. I'll say that I'm free anytime for a reshoot if need be.

whitewash said:
wanting to keep out of this but

"we werent totally happy with the first set of picture so after talking it through with the photographer he put some more time into it and we really got the results we wanted, we would definetly work with him in the future"

or

"we werent totally happy with the first set of pictures but after talking this through with the photographer he wasnt prepared to help us out, we are not happy and i dont think we'll be hiring him again"


which ones gonna net you more business from either the same client (colleges publish new perspectus' every year so they might become a return customer) or through word of mouth...... i.e which is the course of action which will make better business sense..
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Yeah I totally agree, but I do feel that the odds are against me. I do want to work it out and retain the client for future use.
 
petemc said:
I will suggest that, but I don't trust my lens so how can I do another shoot with it? If I had the money I'd buy a Canon 24-70 tomorrow.
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Use your 28-105 if you've still got it, you know it's good.
 
dod said:
Use your 28-105 if you've still got it, you know it's good.
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I do, but its not as sharp, so they'd still require sharpening which would again increase the noise. I couldn't rent the 24-70 as it would cost more than its retail price in a deposit.
 
Funny thing I've noticed with Sigma lenses.... get a good one and it's fantastic. Get a bad one and it's pants. Their quality control leaves a bit to be desired.

I read a review of a Sigma lens we have which ranks well alongside all our Nikon glass..... The review? "Optically poor performance" ...... Go figure :(
 
Marianne says she wants to give you a supportive cuddle Pete ;) :LOL:
 
I can't speak from any sort of experience on this one Pete, cos you're the pro tog and your images will p!ss all over anything that I've come up with. BUT...

I'm guessing that photography is as much word-of-mouth as anything else, so you need to maintain a good relationship with your clients. In particular your early ones - but let them know that you are aware that you (or your equipment) were to blame, and that you are willing to make all reasonable efforts to put the situation right.

From a business perspective, picture this...

Profit.jpg


If you keep these guys happy, your profit goes up like the green line. If they give you bad press, your profit graph is delayed. So, at the end of the year, you haven't lost the profit just from this sale - you lose the shaded area at the end. At this stage, bend over backwards to keep them sweet, mate. (Another thing - an unhappy customer will tell 4 times more people than a happy one will...)

Just stuff that I've picked up. Apologies if it's obvious or patronising - I don't mean it to be.
 
Make use of Jessops 30day money back guarantee ;) Though that might not be 'right' but it's free :p
 
want to borrow mine, or the 17-40, don't have a 24-70 unfortunately. Serious offer
 
chuckles said:
Marianne says she wants to give you a supportive cuddle Pete ;) :LOL:
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Aw thanks :)

Thanks Catdaddy, it sounded fine. I'm trying to take everyones posts in a non-personal way or I would be ranting all over the place :D

Matt. said:
Make use of Jessops 30day money back guarantee ;) Though that might not be 'right' but it's free :p
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I am tempted to be quite honest. Hell if it wasn't for my 30D arrival soon I'd be calling Kerso to buy a 24-70 right now. Once these next 2 jobs are sorted I think I will look to get it as they'll cover it.

dod said:
want to borrow mine, or the 17-40, don't have a 24-70 unfortunately. Serious offer
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Cheers mate, but I'd rather not have the pressure of trying to do the job and watch out for your gear :)
 
The edited images look fine to me. :shrug:

Pete, go and see 'em and discuss this with them properly eyeball to eyeball in a sensible fashion. Put your point of view across, it may make all the difference. Either way I'd do whatever was necessary to satisfy the client... the last thing you need is someone giving you a crap reputation which you don't deserve. :)

I don't see anything wrong with shooting at 2.8 btw. What you do have to watch is shooting in single shot AF mode, once the shutter is half depressed and focus achieved, the AF is locked and you only have to hang onto that position for a fraction too long for the model to move enough to be slightly OOF. Obviously if the camera isn't on a tripod then there's potential for your own and the model's movement to cause problems.
 
petemc said:
Cheers mate, but I'd rather not have the pressure of trying to do the job and watch out for your gear :)
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LOL I don't watch out for my gear :LOL:
 
flipping eck...what a thread...you're doing well to keep up with all this advice Pete...you'll do what's right on the day...go sleep on it, things always look better in t'morning :)
Everything happens for a reason...
 
Great thread with everyone showing concern for you.

I guess you must have been under a lot of pressure after the crash (read about it on the other thread).

I'm with Catdaddy on this one.

Some great lessons to be learnt.

Business (at the decision making end) sucks sometimes. Don't know what your experience is currently but let me assure you that, like all things, it does get easier.

Chin up. (y)
 
you'll do what's right on the day...go sleep on it, things always look better in t'morning
Everything happens for a reason...
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Well you'll not get any words wiser than those. (y)


DOH!! edited to say what I wanted to, rather than the oposit. :bonk: :LOL:
 
Hehe in the morning I have an interview for another job for a non-profit org (I hope) who can't afford to pay for a photog but it could be good experience. Tomorrow is going to be quite a day. Thanks for an interesting evening guys :D
 
Pete I think the best way to approach it is as CT says. Go and see them face to face.

Explain that for the brief you were given, you think they are plenty sharp and adequate. If, however, they are unhappy with them, and find them unacceptable, you are more than willing to reshoot for them, and / or work with them to get an acceptable result.

Maybe this could be a (for want of a better phrase) n00b or college secretary or something, zooming in and expecting crystal clarity at 400% sort of thing, who doesn't understand that that just doesn't happen?

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding, and that if they tried to print them to their original brief, they will see they are fine.

I would go back with some processed full size JPEGS as you gave to them (maybe theyve been editing and resaving their copies ? )
Also with some full size sharpened uncompressed TIFFS (to A4 spec), to show that there are no compression errors.

There is no way I would go in armed with 500 RAW files.
I would go in with as many processed shots as I can, for illustration purposed. If it's more than the client paid for, just dont let it out of your sight :LOL:

Like everyone says, the old adage, the customer is always right, and you're at a very vulnerable position, you could really do with the good name that this can bring, and more importantly, can do without the bad name it can bring.

So do what's right, try and please the client as best you can. If that means reshooting, reshoot. If it means just explaining that zooming into 100% is going to bring out the worst in ANY photos, then so be it ;)

Good luck with it mate, and do keep us informed :)
 
Met with them today. They were disapointed. They thought I'd slacked off and just sent them a bunch of random images because they were saying that some were out of focus and didn't understand why I chose them. I explained that I work at 25% not 100% and that they were acceptable to me at 25%. I gave them 129 images to browse through and even then that didn't really please them as they were like "well no we have to do all this extra work." They said it should be a case of them getting the best shots and imho, they were. I wasn't expecting them to work at 100%. I don't think there's any way to salvage this really. I offered to do a reshoot and they were like "time, hassle, etc" They seem like a nice bunch of guys and I feel that I've let them down. I explained that I did everything right and that people with £25,000 cameras would still have the same trouble and they said "in our experience it doesn't happen." I know this much, I won't buy anything less than Canon L glass from now on. I need a hug :(
 
aww....come here Pete...those nasty people....then take a deep breath, stand up straight and say to yourself 'I will show them!'
 
Sorry to hear that Pete but it's a good lesson for the rest of us.


** Note to self :

must remember that some picky **** demand sharpness at 100% crop :bang:
 
Sorry to hear that Pete, sounds like you offered them every possible solution so no one can say you didnt try.

First thing you should do now (if possible), is get in touch with Sigma as per Mattys post and get that lens checked out, its let you down once (and once is too many in your work).
 
Marianne said:
aww....come here Pete...those nasty people....then take a deep breath, stand up straight and say to yourself 'I will show them!'
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:D I think I'd feel better if it was something they'd done but I really feel like I've let them down in some way.

mrgubby said:
Sorry to hear that Pete but it's a good lesson for the rest of us.


** Note to self :

must remember that some picky **** demand sharpness at 100% crop :bang:
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Yeah I explained that to them, that I never work at 100% and only stupidly silly priced lenses will be sharp at 100%. They are happy with some but others are out of focus. That *could* be due to f/2.8 but I focused each time so its probably a lens problem. Time to become an L glass whore. *paints red ring around head*
 
Sorry to hear it was a no win :(
 
:LOL:

Like CT says to keep focus at 2.8 you need to focus right before you take the shot.....(Something I'm having trouble with, keeping steady after getting the focus).

That aside though, get the lens sent back to Sigma, and I think most of all, learn from this experience. You can't say you didn't try. Learn from whats happened, how you dealt with it, how they dealt with it, what was said.
Think about next time and move on.
Unfortunately there's not much else you can do.

I'd hug you but I'm too manly for that, so I'll, er, slap you and say "Tough one mate"

What it seems theyve done is overexpected what they can get, not only from you, but certainly from within their budget.

Did you point out that if he printed them at prospectus size, they are more than adequate......100% is MORE than prospectus size.
Seems to me is that while they had a right to question a few of the shots, theyve gone overboard and found problems where there arent any...
 
mrgubby said:
petemc.JPG



:nono:
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Haha yes! :D

Marcel said:
:LOL:

Like CT says to keep focus at 2.8 you need to focus right before you take the shot.....(Something I'm having trouble with, keeping steady after getting the focus).

That aside though, get the lens sent back to Sigma, and I think most of all, learn from this experience. You can't say you didn't try. Learn from whats happened, how you dealt with it, how they dealt with it, what was said.
Think about next time and move on.
Unfortunately there's not much else you can do.

I'd hug you but I'm too manly for that, so I'll, er, slap you and say "Tough one mate"

What it seems theyve done is overexpected what they can get, not only from you, but certainly from within their budget.

Did you point out that if he printed them at prospectus size, they are more than adequate......100% is MORE than prospectus size.
Seems to me is that while they had a right to question a few of the shots, theyve gone overboard and found problems where there arent any...
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I did refocus each time I changed the zoom level and the model bearly moved. Everything seemed fine from my end. There was no way to know. First impressions eh. Can't imagine they'll want to trust me again even if I do upgrade the glass. I did mention that I printed some and they looked fine, but they replied with something along the lines of that they use high quality printers so need high quality work. I did tell them that I work at 25%, print view, so that my images will look good printed. The disagreed.
 
Sorry to hear about your problems pete, If you take a step back from it all you will see it aint all that bad, lesson learned and all that, it's 1 client. Ive had issues with clients before and im sure we all have. At least you didn't do my favourite which was back in the days of "FILM", did a whole shoot with flash at a shutter speed of 125th sec, Flash sync max 60th. whoops!!!!
Put it down to experience, feel bad for half an hour and then get back to taking stunning images which we all know you can.
 
Gary Bagshawe said:
Sorry to hear about your problems pete, If you take a step back from it all you will see it aint all that bad, lesson learned and all that, it's 1 client. Ive had issues with clients before and im sure we all have. At least you didn't do my favourite which was back in the days of "FILM", did a whole shoot with flash at a shutter speed of 125th sec, Flash sync max 60th. whoops!!!!
Put it down to experience, feel bad for half an hour and then get back to taking stunning images which we all know you can.
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This man speaketh the truth. Even if he did get his shutter speeds wrong once...lol :D
 
Do you reckon I should offer them a discount? Saying that I'd like to work with them in the future and while theres nothing I could have done to prevent this I accept that they're disapointed.
 
You could write them a letter, apologise and offer a discount for any further work, maybe even give them a couple of the best photos printed out on the best print you can get to show them that they are decent photos?
 
petemc said:
*snip*
I did mention that I printed some and they looked fine, but they replied with something along the lines of that they use high quality printers so need high quality work. I did tell them that I work at 25%, print view, so that my images will look good printed. The disagreed.
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I don't know anything about the clients but they sound like the good old "having a little knowledge and being dangerous with it".

I would try and part with them as amicably as possible then avoid doing buisness with them in the future. Unless of course , the price is right and you have a cast-iron spec from them :)
 
If it's any help, I run my own printing business and have some VERY awkward customers (and some lovely ones too!). I've learnt from experience that nothing earns you more respect from a customer than saying "I accept you're not happy with the product, what can I do to put things right for you". I have done this in the past even when I feel that I am 100% justified in saying "up yours the job is perfect!!". I really do believe that you can gain a better reputation by your reaction to a problem than by just getting it right every time. I guess it's trying to turn a negative into a positive (no pun intended!!)
 
Could you send him some processed prints to prove that they'll print out alright? They're idiots if they think they'll look sharp at 100% on a monitor. Monitors only display at something like 72PPI where as your prints will be a lot higher than that. If I was you pete I'd think about running off some prints from photobox or somewhere (I only mention them because their turn around is so fast) and send those to them.

Good luck. It's almost enough to put anyone off trying to make some money from photography isn't it.
Kev
 
petemc said:
Do you reckon I should offer them a discount? Saying that I'd like to work with them in the future and while theres nothing I could have done to prevent this I accept that they're disapointed.
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It seems like an honourable solution to me Pete, if they're not entirely satisfied and don't want to reshoot. Experiences - even ones like this, are invaluable in the long term, and just make you a wiser, better prepared cookie. ;)

Can't help with the hug mate ...sorry, you're the wrong shape altogether.:D
 
Pete, I've looked at both sets of images on my laptop (crap screen).
The first set are very soft, and the reprocessed set seem to have a dark halo round the subjects.

I think the main problem here may be down to your technique on the shoot.
I myself would have used a smaller aperture say f8-f11 under the studio lighting.
This would have probably negated the out of focus look the images have.

Personally I wouldn't offer any sort of discount, but would offer to reshoot foc.
Hire a lens if you need to, and use this experience as a learning process.

HTH
 
Really sorry to hear about the job not going as planned, but as everyone has said, you take amazing photos so try not to feel too down about it. Just treat it as a learning experience & make sure you don't feel disheartened in your next shoot.
I mean shooting after a crash - if you told them that too & they still reacted like that, I really wouldn't worry - theres just no satisfying some people :shake: :bang: .
 
It sounds to me like you've done everything possible to rectify the situation and you might have to accept you can't win this one and move onward and upward.

There are two things that I'd kinda disagree with though

and while theres nothing I could have done to prevent this I accept that they're disapointed.
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If your kit lets you down, you have to put the blame on yourself and shoulder the responsibilty in the face of the client. Stand there and say "it's my fault, how can I put it right for you". Which I know is pretty much what you've done but I think it's important to take the blame as well as the credit.

I did tell them that I work at 25%, print view, so that my images will look good printed. The disagreed.
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I think they are entitled to expect the images to stand up at 1/1 size, anything else is relying on reducing the shot. Time to start working your images at 100% perhaps. ;)

No hug from me either but I think you've more than earned a :beer:
 
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