As far as I'm aware, there any formal guidelines and the law doesn't expand on the meaning of 'near'. The issue is that it doesn't depend just on the species, but the temperament of individual birds and their circumstance. The usual example is avocets that nest in front of public hides, as long as you follow usual hide etiquette there's no issue, but normally they'd be disturbed even at much greater distance.Pete, genuine question, are there any published guidelines as such for this?
One issue is "different behaviour". If countless dogs bark every day, the owl will have either moved on before becoming attached to the territory, or have grown use to them and understands they're not a threat. If you're doing some unusual or novel, then that's not the case. Secondly, birds and animals are quite able to tell when something is ignoring them and when it's watching them. The latter is the behaviour of predators.Surely if the OP was on a footpath frequented by dog walkers there is more chance of disturbance via dog barks and such than someone sitting/standing still
I personally don't think you have done anything wrong. Ignore the jibes, it's not obvious either of you have disturbed the bird. The other guy may have by going closer but that's not certain. You can get pretty close to some species without causing any concern at all.Ok, I'll issue an apology to those that think my sitting on the path 100m from the site is causing a disturbance, I have no way of identifying whether it did or didn't. :|
I'll be honest though, I didn't really expect my (what I thought was responsible viewing) would end up in me being called a prat, negligent and reckless. :|
however in general terms 100m is too close to a schedule 1 nest site particularly without a hide etc
Having photographed schedule 1 birds in the past ,and still do armed with a 300mm f4 and a 400mm 5.6 i have no choice but to get as close as i can to my subjects ,as this is about the barn owl i will only wobble on about that bird,in my opinion their are photographers that know the subject they are photographing and study the birds behaviour ,know the subject etc,then there are the trophy hunters that just want the wow factor shot at any cost and lets face it if they spend £20 grand on equipment and they have to prove there investment was worth it (and there are some photographers that also spend the same but know there subjects) ,in my opinion if you know the barn owls flight path when going back to the nest with food then you stay well clear of it ,were the bird hunts for food is the place to be,they are very predictable to the point were they are out at the same time every day,if conditions are in favour ,you stand in your spot and sit it out ,they come to you ,i have had barn owls fly over my head many times as if i were not even there ,then come back the same way and carry on hunting ,i had a simalar situation a few years ago like Gavin were i was at a good spot for barn owls were some so called wildlife photographer did the excact same thing as Gavin witnessed ,unlike Gavin (who was polite about the situation) i was not and i told him he was in the flight path back to the nest,lets say he did not stay around,and there are a couple of members on here who know what i did , that one man could have been the difference between sucess and failure of that nest site......back to your comment Pete about 300m being in general terms to close to a schedule 1 nest site is a tad out (plenty of info on the internet on photographing schedule 1 birds),its all about knowing were you should be and were you shouldnt be because at the end of the day the welfare of the subject is far more important than getting the so called perfect shot,.....so going back on Gavin possibly causing disturbance and recklesness at around 300m is twaddle ,if he is not in anyway stopping that barn owl from going back to the nest with food then i would say even at 300m away he is causing no issues at all....the acid test is has the bird been disturbed by your actions - if it wasnt then probably you werent either negligent or reckless, (unlike mr dim wt who was definitely reckless) , however in general terms 100m is too close to a schedule 1 nest site particularly without a hide etc
so going back on Gavin possibly causing disturbance and recklesness at around 300m is twaddle ,if he is not in anyway stopping that barn owl from going back to the nest with food then i would say even at 300m away he is causing no issues at all....
Totaly different situation there Ade,lets say your were constantly driving back and forth across the barn in the birds return flight path to feed the young ,would you continue or make a judgent call and hang back ,change your route to allow the bird a stress free flight to the nest ,i would like to think with your knowledge you would stop and think ,but then someone without such knowledge could easily carry on regardless and possibly cause the bird problems ....Let me chuck this into the mix. This bird hangs out in a barn,on a working farm. The farmer and myself have need to go into the barn on a weekly basis, he works or drives around the barn daily.
The owl is not disturbed if you do not go into the barn, if you do, it flies out and comes back after a short while. Owls have used barns as long as barns have been around,barns are working buildings. I very much doubt if Gavin sitting a good distance away behind a bloody fence will upset the bird one iota. Some berk getting closer and closer and doing so regularly could well do so.
Taken Jan 11th, owl kept on sleeping, check the shutter speed, taken through a window into the barn. The owl is still hanging out in the exact same spot,to press......just wish it would get a mate.
Barn Owl Jan 1 by www.wildlifenorthwest.co.uk, on Flickr
If the bird gets a mate, then the barn will be emptied of what we need and they will be left in peace. Emptying the barn will be a right PITA, but we spoke about it and agreed that we will do just that.Totaly different situation there Ade,lets say your were constantly driving back and forth across the barn in the birds return flight path to feed the young ,would you continue or make a judgent call and hang back ,change your route to allow the bird a stress free flight to the nest ,i would like to think with your knowledge you would stop and think ,but then someone without such knowledge could easily carry on regardless and possibly cause the bird problems ....
Thanks for responding Paul. Just to be clear I haven't photographed a barn owl or any owl yet. I'm just trying to gather knowledge before trying it out sometime I would never want to cause distress to any animal, intentionally or unintentionally.One issue is "different behaviour". If countless dogs bark every day, the owl will have either moved on before becoming attached to the territory, or have grown use to them and understands they're not a threat. If you're doing some unusual or novel, then that's not the case. Secondly, birds and animals are quite able to tell when something is ignoring them and when it's watching them. The latter is the behaviour of predators.
Often you'll be able to drive quite close past a perched barn owl, buzzard or red kite and it'll sit there nonchalantly. But the moment you stop the car, they'll have flown off before you can wind down the window. It's why it's good stalking technique, not to move in a straight line towards your subject but to move in a zig-zag. It reassures the subject you're doing your own thing and not paying it overdue attention.
Very good point Paul, the falcons I photograph annually are not bothered at all about people being in the area, as long as they are not too close of course.Other peregrine nests are the polar opposite, they are distressed if you get within 200 yards of them, so I just concentrate on the one site for photographic purposes and leave the others alone,other than to check that all is well through a spotting scope.This Schedule 1 bird thing is not a one rule suits all kind of thing though IMO, and i do find the many interpretations very confusing
Take the 2 breeding pairs of Peregrine Falcons in my local area (one pair in Sheffield, the other in Derby), both have webcams set up on them, both are fairly heavily publicised with no attempt to disguise/conceal their location, both within fairly heavily populated City/Town centres, these birds do not seem phased by the presence of people watching/photographing them on a regular basis
They have also both been there for several years, and continue to return each and every year
I could walk right up and stand directly below the ones in Sheffield, and many people regularly do as it on the side of a Church which is used as a lecture theatre by the Sheffield University, so is continuously surrounded by noisy students and passing shoppers
These birds obviously have a mind of their own, and chose the nest/breed in these locations, obviously knowing full well there is human presence near by, be it 100 yards above a busy street, or 100 meters from a public footpath
Couldn't agree more........unfortunately their are some that think because they own a longer lens they ultimately become wildlife photographers and behave like morons in the fieldThere's a reason pros can wait days for subjects to come along. The best way to get close to subjects is to know them and how they behave and adapt to them. Getting close to a subject to get the best pictures can be a case of getting into position when the subject is not there and waiting. It can take hours, a day or even several days. If you don't have the time for that either don't take the pictures, stay well back and use a longer lens or find a more tolerant species.
Much the same as dancing over to a bir ... lady in a club rather than just charging at herIt's why it's good stalking technique, not to move in a straight line towards your subject but to move in a zig-zag. It reassures the subject you're doing your own thing and not paying it overdue attention.
Dog walkers are passing by. Someone sat as close as you implied (60 yards or so) and not moving would definitely be seen as a threat. You are effectively a hunter watching its prey.
Reckless behaviour is something that would cause a bird to abandon (or destroy) it's nest or young. Lurking close to a nest may well qualify.
Doesn't the same principle apply to someone quietly stood watching with a camera compared to someone with yapping and barking or noisy dogs?? How can you criticise the camera user who doesn't approach and yet find it acceptable that others use the path and create noise or other disturbances or even threats in the form of other animals?
Owl boxes don't have windows (certainly none of the ones I've seen!) - they only look out their door when waking/getting ready to go... so I'm not sure I'd accept this point as valid in this instance.or someone who stands on the path outside for an hour staring through your windows?
I take the point a human wouldn't be impressed by this, but an owl? I can't imagine their perception of someone standing on a path almost 100m from their windowless box is in any way disturbing their privacy. Can we really attribute human feelings and emotions to an owl anyway?Standing around quietly can be a lot more disturbing than quickly passing by noisily though. Put yourself in the place of the animal - you're sitting in your house one evening, what do you find more disturbing: a group of people who are shouting/playing loud music/letting their dogs bark but who pass by quickly, or someone who stands on the path outside for an hour staring through your windows?
Owl boxes don't have windows (certainly none of the ones I've seen!) - they only look out their door when waking/getting ready to go... so I'm not sure I'd accept this point as valid in this instance.
(eta, plus you also cannot compare humans with "human emotions" to owls, who may well not give a toss if someone is sat 300 yards from their house )
The point I was trying to get across was - animals get used to certain behaviours and therefore you can't assume just because they're used to having humans pass by at that distance they are used to having humans standing around for a prolonged period of time at the same distance.
I'd go as far as I reasonably could without breaking any law (intentionally) or causing harm/distress to any animal. However, the whole point of my posts throughout has been the same...is it always possible to know what is or isn't acceptable to the animal? No, of course it isn't!...but more of a case of 'how far are you prepared to go!
I'd go as far as I reasonably could without breaking any law (intentionally) or causing harm/distress to any animal. However, the whole point of my posts throughout has been the same...is it always possible to know what is or isn't acceptable to the animal? No, of course it isn't!
Most of what I've read in this thread in terms of criticism has been based on speculation, opinion and guesswork (with the exception of the actions of the guy who climbed the fence and approached the owl). If someone could back those up with some facts about the animal behaviour, I'd feel much more comfortable with my own actions.