Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[MatBin]

@MatBin Electric Motorbike?

You HAVE got to be joking!!!

 

[Overexposed]

You haven't opened the link and looked at the graph have you? I've attached the file for you.

Data collected from forum members show all except 1 2013 or later (aka gen 2) health to be above 85%. Most beyond 2 year old gen 2 are near 90% mark.


For longer term, there's also this stat for Tesla aging, where majority hover at 95% mark: https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

Either way, degradation is not a problem. Battery doesn't just die.

That's really convincing - all 4 years of it!!!

 

[nilagin]

But an ICE vehicle has thousands more moving parts, ergo thousands more potential points of failure. And there are many £10 part failures that cost hundreds or thousands in labour costs. Or even simply a £10 part that fails and creates catastrophic damage.

But... feel free

A V8 engine only has around 200 moving parts, other than the engine and gearbox which has nowhere near that many moving parts, an EV will have the same amount of moving parts in the rest of the car.

 

[Nod]

Sort of depends on whether something like a ball/roller bearing or a cam chain is counted as one moving part or whether each element of those assemblies is counted as an individual moving part.

 

[nilagin]

I had to attend a very boring 3hr course on high voltage EV and hybrid vehicles today. To complete the course there is another 2 parts to take but for what I need at the moment, I only need part 1.
From what I got from the course, I am not authorised to work on any of the high voltage components or any of the wiring. All high voltage wiring and plugs should be orange universally. In 2017 slow charge plugs changed from 5 pin to 7 pin. There is an additional 2 pin plug for the fast charge. Batteries do lose their charge capacity over time, although not all the cells lose that capacity at the same rate. When recharging the reduced capacity cells charge first before the remaining cells. This ensures the battery gets charged as much as it's reduced capacity will allow. Some batteries are air cooled, some are cooled with a coolant. It is the coolant which can cause a fire in the event of a crash and is why cars have to be quarantined to make sure a fire doesn't start after the car is moved.
Some fire brigades are under the wrongful impression that a car is safe if the 12V battery power is isolated, this does not isolate the high voltage.

 

[onomatopoeia]

How much was your new clutch? What was the total maintenance cost of your 18 year old car including ALL consumables and oil changes?

There are no yearly consumables in an EV powertrain. DPF replacement costs are going to be similar to battery cell replacement costs (when the service becomes available). The whole battery doesn't have to be changed in one go.

How much would a transfer box oil change cost? How much complexity does it add? How much maintenance does it add? Does it rob engine power? Does it reduce your car efficiency?

Average cost of servicing, MOT and maintenance over my 14 years of ownership is around £1000/year. Some of it would be needed on an EV, e.g. brake fluid changes (it absorbs water, you change it with age not use), bushes, suspension and steering, some wouldn't e.g. oil changes and spark plugs. I used an independent marque specialist and genuine parts so my costs are higher than going to a general garage. So say £500/year on the powertrain, or £40/month.

Transfer box oil change? Like gearboxes, many don't even have drain plugs, the oil is in for life. It typically adds no maintenance, or twenty quid every six years for a gallon of EP80. I've owned six 4wd vehicles and apart from a couple of years have always had at least one since 1994. I've never had a transfer box failure. I've never had a gearbox failure either. The only non-friction transmission component I've ever had fail is a rear axle CWP assembly (the pinion shaft snapped while towing a 2000kg load, on a series 2A Land Rover leaving it front wheel drive only. Doubtless there's an EV to fulfill the Land Rover offroad towing role that I don't know about) - do EVs have axles, or do they have a motor per wheel?

 

[Byker28i]

That's really convincing - all 4 years of it!!!

To be fair, early Prius batteries can now be had for under £2000, although the Mk3's are nearly £6k.

No one yets said what happens to the old batteries. Assuming they have a 10 year life...

 

[nilagin]

Its all doable it just needs a mindset change away from traditional living. think back 30 years how many homes had computers. top end 2 litre cars put out 150BHP you can get that out of a 1.4 now.

If they are only getting 150bhp from a 1.4, they aren't trying very hard. Try 1.0 instead.

 

[jamesev]

If they are only getting 150bhp from a 1.4, they aren't trying very hard. Try 1.0 instead.

What production 1.0 l has 150bhp?

 

[Byker28i]

Scarey stuff on those nissan leaf forums on speak EV

My Leaf quoted 36 miles on a 100% charge this morning, 110 would be lovely.

I have just managed 23 miles for 50% of the battery on my 64 plate 24 kWh LEAF. External temperature -6 C. Agree 110 would be lovely. If temperature goes down to -10 C then it is going to have to be running the cabin heater and charger to work the battery and keep its internal temperature above -10 C. Now the battery is at more risk of damage by going too cold than overheating

 

[Byker28i]

What production 1.0 l has 150bhp?

ford eco boost 1.0 hast 140bhp in the fiesta
Formula Ford Eco boost run them at 200bhp

Come on you knew it was goign to be ford

 

[jamesev]

ford eco boost 1.0 hast 140bhp in the fiesta
Formula Ford Eco boost run them at 200bhp

Come on you knew it was goign to be ford

140 in the eco boost. Looks like 125 ps?!

 

[nilagin]

Yep, there are definitely some psychological barriers to overcome, and real ones for that matter.

I will say this though, you start to forgive many of the short comings when you never have to visit a petrol station again and waft around in silence. They're not perfect by any means but they're so easy to live with. It's quite nice making journey's and literally not having to give the cost of doing so even a moments thought. Like I say, not for everyone but it's worth mentioning some up sides.

What downside is there to visiting a petrol station. Unless you live out in the boondogs and petrol stations are very scarce, you don't have to go far to find one, for me visiting one once a fortnight or so, takes 10 minutes out of my life, hardly anything to worry about.

 

[nilagin]

ford eco boost 1.0 hast 140bhp in the fiesta
Formula Ford Eco boost run them at 200bhp

Come on you knew it was goign to be ford

The Formula Ford was just a one off, originally it was nearer to 250ps but it was detuned to 200ps as they found the extra 50 made the car tail end happy and a tad uncontrollable.
The race cars use the 1.6 Ecoboost from the Fiesta ST.

140 in the eco boost. Looks like 125 ps?!

Currently the 1.0 Ecoboost is available as 100ps, 125ps, and 140ps, Mountune can provide a few little tweaks and a bigger intercooler to take it up to 165ps. M-SPORT, have a production class rally car using the 1.0 Ecoboost and again without heavily reworking the standard engine, produces 180ps.
There is an updated 1.0 Ecoboost to be launched anytime soon and will have around 11 different power levels depending on which car it will be installed and 140ps won't be the most powerful variant. I have a rough idea of what Mountune expect to get from that too.

 

[gad-westy]

What downside is there to visiting a petrol station. Unless you live out in the boondogs and petrol stations are very scarce, you don't have to go far to find one, for me visiting one once a fortnight or so, takes 10 minutes out of my life, hardly anything to worry about.

It’s not something I ‘worry about’ but nobody, other than maybe Alan partridge would go to a petrol station recreationally. So not having to use them is better than using them. Like I say, little perk rather than a major basis for decision making.

 

[foggy4ever]

I've had my diesel Civic for over 10 years and as it keeps ticking over through the MOT each year I see no reason to change. My wife would like the new gen 10 Type R but I can't see the point as currently most journeys are a short commute and its 30k, although I'm trying to tempt her in to getting a weekend run about as in a 2006/7 S2000.

Would I buy another diesel, no, mine is pre dpf and my short journey to work does not suit them. I will keep the civic till it dies but I do enjoy driving so a weekend toy would be a great investment for the future.

Sooner or later ev will overtake ice just as ice overtook steam and the horse and cart but it wont be anytime soon. But in theory a small ev for commuting and a weekend toy would be a great combination.

 

[wyx087]

At the moment, but you do have these simplistic views.
You point links to graphs showing how EV ownership is going to rise exponentially over the next 5 years, then say this won't cause any issue with demand, and anyway everyone can have a solar setup, but ignore the capabilities of these in relation to the requirements of the vehicle. 4Kw on your roof, backed by a 4Kw battery give you a maximum of 25 miles range

Businesses are looking at the potential issues and are planning accordingly, owners have to recognise this as well. Same as when electricity goes up because EV's are putting a dent in fuel duty revenue.

Can't wait for a few years time, hopefully it'll all be sorted out then. Economy, range, performance would be a winning combination.

Yes, I'm an optimistic.

But 4kW on the roof doesn't equate to 4kWh of generation.........

I had to attend a very boring 3hr course on high voltage EV and hybrid vehicles today. To complete the course there is another 2 parts to take but for what I need at the moment, I only need part 1.
From what I got from the course, I am not authorised to work on any of the high voltage components or any of the wiring. All high voltage wiring and plugs should be orange universally. In 2017 slow charge plugs changed from 5 pin to 7 pin. There is an additional 2 pin plug for the fast charge. Batteries do lose their charge capacity over time, although not all the cells lose that capacity at the same rate. When recharging the reduced capacity cells charge first before the remaining cells. This ensures the battery gets charged as much as it's reduced capacity will allow. Some batteries are air cooled, some are cooled with a coolant. It is the coolant which can cause a fire in the event of a crash and is why cars have to be quarantined to make sure a fire doesn't start after the car is moved.
Some fire brigades are under the wrongful impression that a car is safe if the 12V battery power is isolated, this does not isolate the high voltage.

There are cutting points for HV battery isolation isn't it? I know there is a cut-off in my Leaf in the rear passenger footwell. Not sure how useful it is inside the car....

The 5pin to 7pin you speak of is the Type 2 AC connector to CCS DC connector. CCS is Type 2 on the top with two extra pins hanging in the bottom for high voltage DC.

Battery cells do loose capacity at different rates. This is why occasional 100% charge is important to balance the cell. Also, there will be battery recondition services in the future, to swap out knackered cells and restore most of battery capacity. Think of these series connected battery cells like a wooden barrow, the shortest strip of wood dictates how much water it can old.

Average cost of servicing, MOT and maintenance over my 14 years of ownership is around £1000/year. Some of it would be needed on an EV, e.g. brake fluid changes (it absorbs water, you change it with age not use), bushes, suspension and steering, some wouldn't e.g. oil changes and spark plugs. I used an independent marque specialist and genuine parts so my costs are higher than going to a general garage. So say £500/year on the powertrain, or £40/month.

Transfer box oil change? Like gearboxes, many don't even have drain plugs, the oil is in for life. It typically adds no maintenance, or twenty quid every six years for a gallon of EP80. I've owned six 4wd vehicles and apart from a couple of years have always had at least one since 1994. I've never had a transfer box failure. I've never had a gearbox failure either. The only non-friction transmission component I've ever had fail is a rear axle CWP assembly (the pinion shaft snapped while towing a 2000kg load, on a series 2A Land Rover leaving it front wheel drive only. Doubtless there's an EV to fulfill the Land Rover offroad towing role that I don't know about) - do EVs have axles, or do they have a motor per wheel?

For EV, there isn't anything to do on the powertrain. So after 10 years you have effectively saved a new battery worth of money by not servicing the ICE powertrain.

That doesn't seem right to me. £500 a year is a lot of money. Annual service should be £200 to £300 depending minor/major and this includes generic car stuff (suspension checks etc) as well.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

That doesn't seem right to me. £500 a year is a lot of money. Annual service should be £200 to £300 depending minor/major and this includes generic car stuff (suspension checks etc) as well.

You can easily pay that and more in rip off charges. Oil costs £30-50 for most cars, oil filter £6, air filter 5-10, pollen filter 5-10. Work 1-2 hours 30-60 or you could do it yourself.

Obviously there are other things like MOT, gearbox oil changes, and the dreaded suspension (sadly this hits me very very hard due to our inadequate roads and substandard VW engineering). So the very worst expense would apply in my case on an EV unless they buy some miracle components or you drive mainly in Germany. Just imagine the bill from a nice electric failure. My dads Jaguar had a bit of a short circuit after the snow and it is not looking nice.

 

[Byker28i]

But 4kW on the roof doesn't equate to 4kWh of generation.........

Why always deliberately misrepresent things? We were talking about 4Kw storage as you said you can get panels and storage for £6k and youve said charging your car happens at night when theres no sun!.
4Kw of storage at best economical driving of 6miles per Kw (some report able to get over 5 with careful driving) gives you at best 25 miles.

Battery cells do loose capacity at different rates. This is why occasional 100% charge is important to balance the cell. Also, there will be battery recondition services in the future, to swap out knackered cells and restore most of battery capacity.

You really have no idea about how these batterys work do you and the amount of research and technology going into them. The way they are made, the protective shell, the plastic coverings, it's not cost effective to swap individual cells, easy to identify individual cells without the whole unit being out, at which point you swap the whole battery. An obvious example here is the cost of a MK1 and Mk2 Prius battery is now just over £1200.

How many cells do you think your leaf battery has? Let me tell you.
It has 48 modules, each module has 4 cells each, so 196 cells. The Tesla has close to 5000. Whilst the modules are containerised they are within a sealed pack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=347&v=HEaxYWW6Zm8

So you'd have to cut open the factory sealed pack, test each module, rebuild the pack, reseal into a new container... It'll be swapped out

Every charge cycle causes a chemical change which is what causes the degradation
There's a very good article on radio 4 on battery chemical composition
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09tdr0r

And you still haven't answered my question of what happens to the batteries at end of life.
Seeing as these modern batteries are suggested as having around 70% capacity left when swapped out, I'd suggest they could be put into cheap solar energy storage solutions.

The process for extracting the metal elements for recyling uses a lot of power HTMR - High-Temperature Metal Reclamation. Lets not even go into the fumes etc given off, nor the fact theres no regulations currently to cover recyling large format Li-on batteries.

For EV, there isn't anything to do on the powertrain. So after 10 years you have effectively saved a new battery worth of money by not servicing the ICE powertrain.

For you and your choice, yet several manufacturers are looking at putting in drive trains to increase performance,range and so make them more attractive to all users, not just short local journeys.
10 years ownership isn't a factor for the 80% of people buying new cars through 3 & 4 year PCP deals etc.

 

[Byker28i]

So three papers on looking at the issues related to car batteries for EV vehicles. The disposal of which hasn't really been looked at, just kicked down the road as it's new technology.

If we are looking at EV as a environmental solution, then we need to look at the whole life cycle

The Environmental Impacts of Recycling Portable Lithium-Ion Batteries
https://ac.els-cdn.com/S22128271163...t=1520585145_b64a5a1f90d67cc056be04c001b643d9

Scenarios For The Return Of Lithium-Ion Batteries Out Of Electric Cars For Recycling
https://ac.els-cdn.com/S22128271150...t=1520585175_5eae824849f2992645fda697c26cc936

The future of automotive lithium-ion battery recycling: Charting a sustainable course
https://ac.els-cdn.com/S22149937140...t=1520584252_359a8b58a404423830d66270b61631ab

 

[Byker28i]

Then there's reports into obtaining the metals etc needed for the batteries in the first place
https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...en-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteries

 

[wyx087]

4Kw of storage

Are you sure you know the difference between energy and power? This is throughout all your previous posts.

You really have no idea about how these batterys work do you and the amount of research and technology going into them. The way they are made, the protective shell, the plastic coverings, it's not cost effective to swap individual cells, easy to identify individual cells without the whole unit being out, at which point you swap the whole battery. An obvious example here is the cost of a MK1 and Mk2 Prius battery is now just over £1200.

Yes, that's exactly what main dealers will do, and it may be cost effective to do this due to warranty they will offer. But for independent garages (when they start offering this service as ICE maintenance work dwindles) swapping out cells at cheaper price. All you have to do is: remove the battery, disconnect cells, replace bad ones. The BMS readout (eg. using Leafspy) can identify bad cells without opening and testing each one.

Leaf 24kWh have 48 cell-blocks IIRC. Replace 2 bad ones. Labour cost will probably double but battery cost is 1/24th, may be cheaper if there are second hand parts market (eg. breakers sell tested cells)

If I have a ramp and lifting equipment, I'd be happy to DIY this. But I wouldn't work on the dirty, oily ICE.

And you still haven't answered my question of what happens to the batteries at end of life.

Oh sorry, haven't seen it in the last few pages. Answer is Stationary battery, where energy density and weight doesn't matter, cost matters. Batteries are very flexible and modular.

For you and your choice, yet several manufacturers are looking at putting in drive trains to increase performance,range and so make them more attractive to all users, not just short local journeys.

When that time comes, EV will be able to replace ICE cars....... when infrastructure also improves.

My point is there are already savings to be had by going EV, if your usage pattern and situation allows. Unfortunately not enough people realise this and write off EV based on unfounded rumours spread by the established.

 

[nilagin]

Then there's reports into obtaining the metals etc needed for the batteries in the first place
https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...en-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteries

I caught something on the TV at the gym a few days ago (no sound and poor subtitles) but the gist of it was there is a lot of the raw materials buried in sea beds around the world, machinery is currently being constructed to mine it.
Why do I have this really bad nagging feeling we are about to see a lot more pollution in the seas around the world?

 

[srichards]

I doubt if battery packs have the cells sat there like a bunch of clipped in AAs waiting to be swapped out. A lot of them have integrated heating and cooling I'd think you'd either need total disassembly or to be swapping out large chunks of groups of cells. There is only one person that offers it and it's £1500 per cell on a Leaf which suggests it's a lot of arse ache. That car doesn't have any thermal battery management either.

I'm all for EVs but it seems to me there is still a huge lack of indies that will have anything to do with them. Even main dealer support is patchy at best and many aren't EV specialists.

 

[nilagin]

Yes, that's exactly what main dealers will do, and it may be cost effective to do this due to warranty they will offer. But for independent garages (when they start offering this service as ICE maintenance work dwindles) swapping out cells at cheaper price. All you have to do is: remove the battery, disconnect cells, replace bad ones. The BMS readout (eg. using Leafspy) can identify bad cells without opening and testing each one.

Leaf 24kWh have 48 cell-blocks IIRC. Replace 2 bad ones. Labour cost will probably double but battery cost is 1/24th, may be cheaper if there are second hand parts market (eg. breakers sell tested cells)

If I have a ramp and lifting equipment, I'd be happy to DIY this. But I wouldn't work on the dirty, oily.

As I mentioned last night, I was on an EV and Hybrid training course yesterday, held by a man who had been working in the field for the last 10yrs.
From what I learnt yesterday regarding the batteries, how they are charged and constructed, I have come to the conclusion that your knowledge of EV and hybrid batteries and the powertrain is about as good as your knowledge of an internal combustion engine. Both can be fitted together on the back of a 1st class postage stamp.

 

[wyx087]

As I mentioned last night, I was on an EV and Hybrid training course yesterday, held by a man who had been working in the field for the last 10yrs.
From what I learnt yesterday regarding the batteries, how they are charged and constructed, I have come to the conclusion that your knowledge of EV and hybrid batteries and the powertrain is about as good as your knowledge of an internal combustion engine. Both can be fitted together on the back of a 1st class postage stamp.

I thought you said you've only been on part 1 of the course which does not authorise you to work on HV parts. How does that make you an expert in assessing other people?

Which part of my last post was false? It'd be good to learn from the expert.

 

[Byker28i]

If I have a ramp and lifting equipment, I'd be happy to DIY this. But I wouldn't work on the dirty, oily ICE.

WOW!
The packs are sealed for a reason, environmental, temperature management and to stop idiots playing with them as the voltages/current is lethal. It would need a major packaging redesign to allow DIY replacement and even then, with the chances of death, no manufacturer is going to open themselves up to that lawsuit.

Answer is Stationary battery, where energy density and weight doesn't matter, cost matters. Batteries are very flexible and modular.

End of life not end of car life. Recycling the materials inside has a huge environmental impact, as does mining them in the first place - just so you have the full story for your green credentials.

...write off EV based on unfounded rumours spread by the established.

Not at all - you seem to think I'm against them when I've consistently said I think they offer exciting opportunities in the future and how I think they are perfect for small local, traffic filled journeys to reduce local pollution.
EV's work currently for some applications, but if we're serious about reducing pollution from conventional vehicles, then we need to look at all the requirements and the possible issues they will then present, otherwise we cure one problem but create others.

Because I'm a realist and don't subscribe to your EV utopia then somehow you seem unable to accept any other views. At the moment EV owners seem to be basking in a euphoria of smugness without thinking of the bigger picture.

 

[nilagin]

I thought you said you've only been on part 1 of the course which does not authorise you to work on HV parts. How does that make you an expert in assessing other people?

Which part of my last post was false? It'd be good to learn from the expert.

Probably the bit about removing dead battery cells from what is a sealed unit and the fact you would be prepared to carry out the task yourself if you had a car ramp. Part 1 of the course basically highlights all the dangers. Part 1 authorised me to work on an EV or hybrid car as far as my employer is concerned. But if I have to work on anything close to any of the high voltage systems, then the system has to be unplugged and isolated. That unplugging and isolation can only be done by someone who has completed all 3 parts. Having completed part 2 allows someone to work on the high voltage systems, but again only if someone with part 3 isolates the system first.
And you think you can do it as a DIY job.
I would like to take this opportunity to pass on my condolences to your family and friends right now, as I fear it's not the death of the internal combustion engine we should be concerned about.

 

[nilagin]

At the moment EV owners seem to be basking in a euphoria of smugness without thinking of the bigger picture.

Probably some of them were adopters of the Prius and because of their attitude earned it the aka Pious.

 

[wyx087]

The dangers are clear and all the risks can be easily managed. Employee safety training is standard practice, but for DIY projects this is not necessary as long as precautions are taken. People treat HV battery like an evil box that will kill you (oh it will without electrical knowledge) but with the correct knowledge it can be easily disassembled.

Sealed unit doesn't mean it cannot be opened. Sealed for life gearbox still get taken apart by independent if they are inclined. Some dealers still recommend oil changes on sealed gearboxes.

What is end of life for a battery? End of life as EV battery can be easily defined, but end of life for a battery cell? It will take a long time for capacity to drop below 50%, by then it is still useful as stationary battery. So considering whole life emission of luxury EV can be already lower than a supermini, reusing the battery only decrease it even further.

It's also not about smugness, apologies if it seemed that way. It's also not about who's against and who is for this change. I'll reiterate my simple recommendation:
There are already savings to be had by going EV, if your usage pattern and situation allows.

My original post, comparing Leaf against a known bulletproof automatic such as Yaris hybrid.

But it's not to say driving an EV within its daily range is fool's errand. Far from it. My family runs a diesel for longer trips and an EV for local runs. The 1-5 miles local trips throughout the day is sooooooooooooo much cheaper and nicer in the EV (preheating!). Cherry on top is we bought the EV for £9000 (inc battery), similar price to a second hand petrol town runabout, so why would anyone choose the latter?

 

[Byker28i]

Probably some of them were adopters of the Prius and because of their attitude earned it the aka Pious.

And yet there's some good lessons to be learnt from the Prius as the popular early car, 1.3 million sold. The early packs were nickel metal hydride and seem to fail/need replacement from 10 years old onwards, but it depends on a number of factors, usage, storage (especially temp), number of charges etc, which is why they range from 100K -300K miles. The petrol engines are still giving the same mileage.

Now if 80% of people are actually buying on PCP etc, then most owners wont care about battery life, just the second hand market and we haven't got to the long life point yet for these cars

 

[Byker28i]

The dangers are clear and all the risks can be easily managed. Employee safety training is standard practice, but for DIY projects this is not necessary as long as precautions are taken. People treat HV battery like an evil box that will kill you (oh it will without electrical knowledge) but with the correct knowledge it can be easily disassembled.

Yup, spot this bloke safely doing it on a concrete floor

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPJ1O9Qu_Bg

 

[Overexposed]

Are you sure you know the difference between energy and power? This is throughout all your previous posts.



Yes, that's exactly what main dealers will do, and it may be cost effective to do this due to warranty they will offer. But for independent garages (when they start offering this service as ICE maintenance work dwindles) swapping out cells at cheaper price. All you have to do is: remove the battery, disconnect cells, replace bad ones. The BMS readout (eg. using Leafspy) can identify bad cells without opening and testing each one.

Leaf 24kWh have 48 cell-blocks IIRC. Replace 2 bad ones. Labour cost will probably double but battery cost is 1/24th, may be cheaper if there are second hand parts market (eg. breakers sell tested cells)

If I have a ramp and lifting equipment, I'd be happy to DIY this. But I wouldn't work on the dirty, oily ICE.


Oh sorry, haven't seen it in the last few pages. Answer is Stationary battery, where energy density and weight doesn't matter, cost matters. Batteries are very flexible and modular.



When that time comes, EV will be able to replace ICE cars....... when infrastructure also improves.

My point is there are already savings to be had by going EV, if your usage pattern and situation allows. Unfortunately not enough people realise this and write off EV based on unfounded rumours spread by the established.

You've consistently quoted predictions from EV user groups when if you Google about there are just as many nightmare stories of unreliability,lack of infrastructure rubbish range and charging inconsistency. You also quote rubbish about EVs being maintenance free and batteries being easily swappable. I've recently gone through the exercise of changing a car and was open minded about EV and hybrids and if you dig beneath the surface EV is far from the utopia you paint. I don't disagree that it may work for some people but only some in certain circumstances and changing your property to an EV friendly charging station is a non starter for most normal people. EV has its place and will undoubtedly succeed but not yet, its in most peoples minds but its not sufficiently user friendly yet for the general for the general motoring public. If you could accept that it works for you and will not yet solve everyone's motoring needs you'd be taken a little more seriously!

 

[nilagin]

The dangers are clear and all the risks can be easily managed. Employee safety training is standard practice, but for DIY projects this is not necessary as long as precautions are taken. People treat HV battery like an evil box that will kill you (oh it will without electrical knowledge) but with the correct knowledge it can be easily disassembled.

Sealed unit doesn't mean it cannot be opened. Sealed for life gearbox still get taken apart by independent if they are inclined. Some dealers still recommend oil changes on sealed gearboxes.

If the battery cells are coolant cooled, opening up the sealed unit certainly won't be a dot job and probably will require certified specialist people to open them up. In the course I attended yesterday, we were told of an EV that had been involved in a front end accident. To learn more of the vehicle and it's safety, the high voltage was immobilized and the car mounted on a jig for inspection. The jig allows the car to be rotated and as a result the cooling fluid moved within the sealed unit. This caused a chemical reaction within the battery pack and it caught light. Hence why crashed Ev's now have to be quarantined and why only qualified and certified people should work on them. Being safety consious does not make you qualified.
I am not aware if other car manufacturers have a similar charging system, but as more and more manufacturers are sharing development, the chances are a lot will charge in a similar manner, but as I mentioned before, any cells that are reduced in capacity will recharge first before the healhier cells, this prevents the degraded cells being degraded too far in advance of the healthier cells. Result being if cells are degraded enough to require replacement, the healthier cells won't be far behind, and the whole lot should be replaced to be economically effective.
If a car manufacturer makes a sealed gearbox etc. , what a dealer recommends doesn't really matter, they are just getting someone to pay for something that doesn't require doing.

 

[wyx087]

You've consistently quoted predictions from EV user groups when if you Google about there are just as many nightmare stories of unreliability,lack of infrastructure rubbish range and charging inconsistency. You also quote rubbish about EVs being maintenance free and batteries being easily swappable. I've recently gone through the exercise of changing a car and was open minded about EV and hybrids and if you dig beneath the surface EV is far from the utopia you paint. I don't disagree that it may work for some people but only some in certain circumstances and changing your property to an EV friendly charging station is a non starter for most normal people. EV has its place and will undoubtedly succeed but not yet, its in most peoples minds but its not sufficiently user friendly yet for the general for the general motoring public. If you could accept that it works for you and will not yet solve everyone's motoring needs you'd be taken a little more seriously!

I have pointed this out many times. but you seem to ignore it and read my other comments as insistence on you to personally buy one.

Unreliability is not an issue with EV. Even in coldest weather they have no problem. Range is a problem, but only if your daily drive is near its limits. Lack of infrastructure is indeed the biggest road-block for EV but it doesn't stop people driving it locally within range of their home charger. Charging inconsistency is the same issue as unreliable infrastructure, there will never be problems charging at home on your own driveway. All EV provide a Plan B for charging: domestic 3-pin plug.

If you want to hear it, I'll say it again:
There are already savings to be had by going EV, if your usage pattern and situation allows.

 

[wyx087]

any cells that are reduced in capacity will recharge first before the healhier cells, this prevents the degraded cells being degraded too far in advance of the healthier cells. Result being if cells are degraded enough to require replacement, the healthier cells won't be far behind, and the whole lot should be replaced to be economically effective.

If you read the bold statement while remembering each cell have a rated charge cycle. You'll realise the degraded cells will degrade slightly quicker as it gains slightly more charge cycle than healthier cells. After thousands of cycles, the degraded ones will have had more cycles than healthier ones AND able to hold less charge AND have higher internal resistance.

The whole lot does not need to be replaced. Only the highest internal resistance ones need to be replaced. You can go from 60% health back to almost 80% health using this method. This is in fact the method Nissan will take going by their warranty documents "restore battery capacity back to 8 (or 9, I can't recall) health bars". But due to low amount of warranty claims, they'll just fit a new battery.

 

[Mr Bump]

What production 1.0 l has 150bhp?

pretty much every motorbike built in the last 20 years

 

[MatBin]

pretty much every motorbike built in the last 20 years

Mines only got 130 from it's 1.05 ltr engine, then again it doesnt have a turbo

 

[MatBin]

there will never be problems charging at home on your own driveway

I beg to differ, when every house in the street plugs in for a charge that won take 24+ hrs to get the cars back to 100% the local infrastructure wont cope, the main substation fuse will blow (a well known fact). If we all plug in via a standard 13amp plug (for a slow charge) we wont have a fully charged car in the morning if it was almost flat the night before.
The infrastructure isnt in place, especially if you live in a flat in a city, which is where the supposed sales are coming from, or a road full of terraced houses where wires will be draped all over the footpath tripping up pedestrians and/or wheel chair users. Pie in the sky stuff.

 

[nilagin]

If you read the bold statement while remembering each cell have a rated charge cycle. You'll realise the degraded cells will degrade slightly quicker as it gains slightly more charge cycle than healthier cells. After thousands of cycles, the degraded ones will have had more cycles than healthier ones AND able to hold less charge AND have higher internal resistance.

The whole lot does not need to be replaced. Only the highest internal resistance ones need to be replaced. You can go from 60% health back to almost 80% health using this method. This is in fact the method Nissan will take going by their warranty documents "restore battery capacity back to 8 (or 9, I can't recall) health bars". But due to low amount of warranty claims, they'll just fit a new battery.

Read what I have said again. (My info as already pointed out comes from someone with at least 10yrs experience working in EV and hybrid system development) . The degrading cells are recharged first until they receive the maximum character can now hold, then the healthier cells recharge. It isn't a case of either / or. All cells receive the exact same number of recharge cycles.
If the recharge system works as you suggest, then replacing the degraded cells only will mean the cells that were once the healthier cells will now degrade more rapidly and another trip to the dealership is now required to have those cells replaced. You then find yourself making more frequent trips to have cells exchanged because the degradation isn't controlled.