5x4 cameras and accessories

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Terry
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Watched a Thomas Heaton video yesterday and he was talking with Ben Horne, a large format landscape photographer.

Got me quite interested in finding out more about the gear and if I could get a setup for reasonable money.

Found Intrepid's website and that really whet my appetite.

So, are the lenses easy to get hold of and what sort of money would I looking at paying.

Did a search for 5x4 film this morning and it appears to be readily available.


I suppose the main question is how much to get set up with a complete kit including changing bag/tent and cloth cover?
 
how much to get set up with a complete kit


Don't forget plenty of good cassettes, a light meter, a screen loupe
possibly integrated into a soft bellow, cable release, all lenses should
have their own plate…

I'm sure some more will be suggested but that's what comes now!
 
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Lenses from about £100 up into the thousands. Say £150 for a lens if you're not too fussy about focal length. You'll need double dark slides to hold the film. I just looked at ffords without spotting any - they do seem to be becoming harder to get. Mike Walker has new ones at £43, so you should find second hand for under this. A focusing cloth might not be needed, depending on how bright the ground glass is. You can probably use something else. My Paramo was about £100 new. My first 5x4 had a dim screen, and I needed the cloth to see the image; others are brighter. You will need a loupe for critical focusing - or very strong reading glasses.

I'd recommend a changing tent over a bag every time - you don't want to have the cloth dragging over the film sheets depositing dust or whatever.

On lenses, the pleasant thing is that they are universal in that they don't have unique mounts. The difficult part is that they are designed for different formats, so you need one that will cover 5x4. This is fairly easy, as there are more formats larger than 5x4 than smaller. Focusing is limited by the camera bellows - lenses don't have focusing mechanisms. Recall that to focus on infinity a lens needs to be 1 focal length from the film, so the Intrepid's 300mm bellows means that a 300mm lens can focus at infinity and no closer. This is one area where the distinction between telephoto and long focus matters. 35mm photographers incorrectly use the terms interchangeably, but a telephoto design will focus on infinity when closer to the film than its focal length. Lenses are put into lens boards by unscrewing them, removing a retaining ring and screwing back together with the board in the middle. It's a lot easier to secure the ring with a proper lens spanner (other names are available).

And, yes, a cable release and tripod. Some form of light meter might be a good idea ;)
 
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I would add one thing to the posts above - which essentially summarise it well - and that is something that can't be bought. Not knowing what your experience is when it comes to using film, and on the assumption that if you've used film it'll be limited to roll film, large format requires the ability to approach taking photos in a 'different' way. I place that in inverted commas not because the principles of exposing a piece of film are different, but rather because LF requires a level of patience and a methodical approach that smaller formats do not require, primarily because there are so many more mistakes that can be made. Murphy's Law states that any mistakes which can be made, will be made, so it is wise on going into LF to expect a learning curve that other formats do not present.

All that said, of course, the reward for nailing a frame of 5x4 or larger is absolutely worth it in my opinion. Personally I only use formats other than 5x4 solely for situations where the 5x4 is impractical, such as very strong wind.
 
You can make your own Dark Cloth, a double layer of good thick but pliable material, some fishing weights sewn into the corners....

For other bits and bobs including lenses have a look at Mr. Cad, they normally have good stocks of all things LF.
 
As has been said, LF requires a more methodical approach as there are no safety catches as such. Forgetting to remove the dark slide, removing the film holder from the back without inserting the dark slide, forgetting to reverse the dark slide marking the film as exposed, loading the film the wrong way around in the film holder are all mistakes that are easily made, and I speak from experience.

In terms of the camera, there are many options depending on what you want to use it for. You don't really want to be lugging a monorail camera over hill and dale, although I've done it in the past. So if you want it for landscape or travel photography then a field or technical camera is the way to go. Unfortunately these do seem to hold their value a bit better than a monorail. For architectural or studio you can't beat a good monorail. Cameras such as the Sinar and Horseman monorail can share lens boards, but there are adaptors available for other lens board formats.

Movements can be as simple or as complicated as both the camera and yourself allows, and I would start off with the basic movements.

Film has gone up quite a bit, Velvia and the like is the photographic equivalent of saffron, but the Fomapan remains a decent price.

I second getting a good light meter, preferably with a spot metering facility - I use an old Gossen Profisix with a spot attachment that works a treat. A cable release is a must as is a loupe.

LF is a lovely format to use in the right circumstances and the negs are something to behold.
 
I'm not related in any way to this Kickstarter* but this camera looks like an excellent way to get into Large Format photography for a smaller outlay...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1794420225/chroma-the-unique-4x5-technical-camera

* Disclaimer: Ok, I am related in entirety to this camera because I've designed and built it and am currently putting together the material orders to build it when the campaign ends ;0)
 
As for Dark cloth I favour one of these in XXLarge https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fruit-Loom-Plain-Cotton-T-Shirt/dp/B004I61S94?th=1&psc=1 I'm pretty sure I stole the idea from @Woodsy they're cheap, simple to use and if you need it to be uber dark buy two and stitch them together.

You also don't look like somebody going to a fancy dress party as a poorly dressed Dracula like you do with a lot of the available dark cloths.

And I stole the idea from Gandhi :D (no longer on here :()
 
Many thanks to everyone who's replied.

A proper minefield it appears (as is any subject if you have no experience).

I started with 35mm in the 80's and had a Mamiya C330 for a while 15 years ago.


@stevelmx5

I've been following your thread with interest mate. It looks a fantastic camera.

I've not trawled all through the thread so have no idea of the price when it becomes available?
 
A lot of the mines, so to speak, are avoidable with dry practice. Also, all of the camera movements are there if you want them, and can be totally avoided if unsure (with the exception of focusing :D).

Best advice I can give is to find someone near you geographically who has a LF camera and ask if you can go an have a bit of hands on time. If you're near Southampton, I'd be more than happy to oblige. I'm sure anyone you speak to would be happy to demo it all.
 
Many thanks to everyone who's replied.

A proper minefield it appears (as is any subject if you have no experience).

I started with 35mm in the 80's and had a Mamiya C330 for a while 15 years ago.


@stevelmx5

I've been following your thread with interest mate. It looks a fantastic camera.

I've not trawled all through the thread so have no idea of the price when it becomes available?

Hi Terry. It is a long build thread so I'm not surprised you haven't been through it already :0)

The link I posted above is to the live Kickstarter campaign that I started last Friday evening and I'm currently at just over 260% funded so looks like I'm building a pile of Chromas this year! The Release Edition on Kickstarter (and actual price after the campaign ends) is £250. Cheers
 
Many thanks Jonathan but I'm in Worcestershire.

I'll ask at the camera club I'm involved in.

there may be a few film shooters there.
 
Hi Terry. It is a long build thread so I'm not surprised you haven't been through it already :0)

The link I posted above is to the live Kickstarter campaign that I started last Friday evening and I'm currently at just over 260% funded so looks like I'm building a pile of Chromas this year! The Release Edition on Kickstarter (and actual price after the campaign ends) is £250. Cheers


Thanks Steve,

You certainly get a lot for your money with that.

I wish you all the best in your venture.

Just need to convert a van into a camper and I'll start saving for LF.

Cheers,

Terry.
 
Just need to convert a van into a camper and I'll start saving for LF.

You think a LF camera is going to cost you money, wait till you convert a van :LOL:

The good thing about using a 5x4 with a van is that if it's cold or raining outside you can just poke the camera through the side window curtains and then stay warm and dry :D

downloadfile.jpg
 
You think a LF camera is going to cost you money, wait till you convert a van :LOL:

The good thing about using a 5x4 with a van is that if it's cold or raining outside you can just poke the camera through the side window curtains and then stay warm and dry :D

View attachment 120347


Good idea Carl!

Yeah I'm converting my second van so know about the cost mate.

Toilet, roof light & Seitz window arrived today so hoping for a dry weekend.
 
That Chroma looks like a superb bit of kit indeed. I was considering selling one of my 4x5's due to lack of use / time with a V700, some film a lens and dark slides, and a changing bag, but it is a Sinar Monorail so something like that may not be suited if you were thinking of carting it any distances in which case a folder might be better and would certainly be lighter. I am not trying to drum up interest in a sale or anything but was mentioning it as I am just mulling it over.

You can get a cable release and I used a cheap jewellers loupe from eBay, and as for dark cloths, personally I always used 2 black t-shirts as you can put them over your head and your hands fit through the arm holes nicely.

You might want to consider a light meter as well. I use a spot meter which is great for slide film though I understand that you can get phone apps.

All this talk of LF is making me think I need to get my MPP out again now.
 
I bought an Intrepid last year (£250) and two lenses;. a 90mm f8 Fujinon and 150mm f5.6 Nikkor. Both lenses cost in the region of £250 each on eBay - one was from Japan so the £250 was after I'd paid the Customs and VAT. I didn't buy the cheapest possible lenses which tend to be older and perhaps with limited coverage for movements - but having said that the shutter on the 90mm lens is now jammed so I'm about to pay for a repair.

I already had a spot meter and a loupe so dark slides and film were the extra expenses.
 
It's worth following a search on eBay for a large format camera. Managed to pick up a camera + lens + 10x dark slides + a box of Portra a few years back since someone was making space for a Mamiya 7II. All I had to do was buy a loupe, changing tent (though I could get by with my changing bag), and dark cloth.
 
My dark cloth was made from a bit of darkroom blackout cloth for the inside, and plain white curtain lining for the outside. There's some Velcro at two of the corners to wrap it around the camera body. There's a gap at the underside, but it blocks enough light to do the job.

The loupe was the guts of an old Russian 50mm lens that was effectively free with a Zorki body. It might have an Industar 61. The optical element came out in one piece, and there was a round bit of metal that it threads into. The bit of metal fitted nicely into the plastic shell of a cheapie eyeball loupe (with the lens taken out), so the 50mm optical unit screws into that and can be focussed. Once set, the focus is locked by wrapping some tape around the two parts. A bit of paracord is tied around it in a groove for convenient dangling.
 
Harrison cameras in Sheffield had a 5x4 kit in yesterday. There was a body, half a dozen film holders, most likely a lens or two as well. If it's not on their website give them a ring.
 
Harrison list a Cambo SC outfit with 7 film holders and 2 lenses for £425. Very reasonable price if the lenses are decent, but the camera is a monorail, which means bulk and weight, and the potential need for a hefty tripod to support it.
 
It certainly looks like a lot for the money. As a kit for use in a studio, it's almost a bargain (assuming a tripod that's up to it). If the lenses are decent, and are focal lengths that one is interested in, I'd say the price is pretty good for those and the film holders alone - about market rate if seven film holders is around £100, and the lenses £150 or so each, and you get a Cambo monorail thrown in. Almost worth considering with a view to selling the camera on (it does look well used, though, so I'd expect to be offering it fairly cheap)..

The Harrison offer notwithstanding, for getting started in field use, I'd be tempted to recommend one lens around 120-150mm, maybe three film holders (enough to fill a 6-sheet tank), and seek out a field camera body of some sort. In other words, start with a standard-ish focal length and see what direction you want to go in. Six shots is enough to keep you busy for an outing, and more film holders than that results in having to develop in batches and manage which holders have what in them. If anything, the camera body is the most important thing to consider - monorails are heavy, muckle lumps that need a hefty tripod and a big bag or case. Field cameras are much smaller and lighter and can be used with sensible tripods. Monorails have all the movements, while field cameras vary in what they can do. It's telling that a browse of the dealers shows that nearly all used 5x4 cameras for sale are monorails. In field cameras, Intrepid or Chroma for a new one with decent movements at the budget end. For around the same price used, a press/technical camera, but expect less movements. For a bit more to a lot more, a traditional style wooden field camera with decent-to-good movements.

For what it's worth...

I started with an MPP monorail and a 150mm lens. My Manfrotto 055 with leveller and MN410 geared head couldn't really cope with it - the head flexed too easily. Tripod and camera weighed about 10kg. Bought an old surveyor's tripod and converted it to use a 3/8" tripod screw, but no head. Solid, but ridiculously large, and never used it. Planned to make some sort of flight case for the MPP, but never did. Added a 90mm lens and ended up with 10 film holders. Had to make a little management tool using the Tap Forms database app on my iPhone to keep track of things (which film was in what, exposure notes). Virtually never used the stuff until I got a used Shen Hao HZX45 field camera in excellent++ condition for £500, and switched out the tripod legs for one of the bigger Calumet carbon fibre ones and ditched the leveller. Camera and tripod now about 5kg. Camera, lenses, holders, meter, accessories now all fit into either of two bags that were too small for just the MPP monorail (an old Billingham about 335 size, and a Lowepro Vertex 100 AW backpack). I'm not the youngest or fittest, but my roving photographer aspirations now extend much further than the edge of the car park. I've also taken my own advice about holders and restrict myself to 3 for an outing.

I still use the Tap Forms tool that I made - it can dump the data to the PC as a spreadsheet, so that's kept in a folder with the scans, and amounts to the exif data for the outing.

Getting the field camera and reducing the tripod weight was when the lightbulb went on. I bought the monorail without knowing anything and I ended up trying to make it usable by going down completely the wrong path. It would have been usable if I had continued, but I would have ended up with very heavy kit that was ridiculously bulky. The kit I've ended up with is no bigger or heavier than your typical reasonably comprehensive SLR/ DSLR or medium format outfit with a decent tripod.
 
I would add one thing to the posts above - which essentially summarise it well - and that is something that can't be bought. Not knowing what your experience is when it comes to using film, and on the assumption that if you've used film it'll be limited to roll film, large format requires the ability to approach taking photos in a 'different' way. I place that in inverted commas not because the principles of exposing a piece of film are different, but rather because LF requires a level of patience and a methodical approach that smaller formats do not require, primarily because there are so many more mistakes that can be made. Murphy's Law states that any mistakes which can be made, will be made, so it is wise on going into LF to expect a learning curve that other formats do not present.
As has been said, LF requires a more methodical approach as there are no safety catches as such. Forgetting to remove the dark slide, removing the film holder from the back without inserting the dark slide, forgetting to reverse the dark slide marking the film as exposed, loading the film the wrong way around in the film holder are all mistakes that are easily made, and I speak from experience.

This emphasis and re-emphasis on the need to be so methodical is worrying... I'm anything but a methodical photographer. I'm forever forgetting the basics, like checking the camera settings before going out, that sort of thing. And I'm absolutely no good at finding THE photo I want to take and concentrating on that for 20 minutes. But I'm still interested... enough to be researching around like mad, not quite enough yet to be pulling any money triggers!

Maybe, just maybe, getting into LF would HELP me become a more careful and methodical photographer!?
 
Maybe, just maybe, getting into LF would HELP me become a more careful and methodical photographer!?

Maybe. You could shoot slide film and get it developed at a lab - the cost of the duffers could encourage you to take more care (or make you weep). Or you could shoot Fomapan 100 and dev yourself, making the duffers cheap enough to not be a worry (and you get more of them to study and learn from).

Joking aside, I think it has to be accepted that it's a different approach. It feels pretty slow and drawn out at first, mainly because there's a lot to keep track of, but the mechanics of it become less prominent with practice. I think the key thing is a mindset that says, "I'm not in a hurry". If you start from that premise, it's easier to take your time and do the checks that need to be done (like checking that the lens is closed before you pull out the dark slide). Nothing wrong with having a checklist to go through if that will help.

I tend to break it down into stages: composition & setup, exposure, and finishing up. The first takes the longest - picking the subject and viewpoint, choosing lens, tweaking framing, focus, movements. Then do metering and decide on exposure, set settings and expose. Finish up with film holder back into the bag, take notes while everything is fresh, pack rest of stuff back into bag (unless I'm walking a short distance to the next shot). When about to move on, always have a look around on the ground in case something got dropped.

Something else I do is carry a little framing aid in my pocket. It has an opening with the 5x4 aspect ratio. It's handy for checking out possible shots without getting the gear out - hold up to the eye and move it back and forward to see what you want to include in the frame, and then choose a lens that will get at least that much in (or change position).
 
This emphasis and re-emphasis on the need to be so methodical is worrying... I'm anything but a methodical photographer. I'm forever forgetting the basics, like checking the camera settings before going out, that sort of thing. And I'm absolutely no good at finding THE photo I want to take and concentrating on that for 20 minutes. But I'm still interested... enough to be researching around like mad, not quite enough yet to be pulling any money triggers!

Maybe, just maybe, getting into LF would HELP me become a more careful and methodical photographer!?

Remember that the system can be as convoluted or as streamlined as you like, so really, I suggest adopting a methodical approach because that's the way I like to shoot LF. In reality, there are I'd say two additional things that are essential to remember: closing the composition shutter once composed, and removing and re-inserting the dark slide in the appropriate order. Otherwise a LF system is the same in principle as any other system. The additional movements are there if you want them,

Ultimately chap, I'd say go or it! Enjoy it for what it is, build yourself up over time at your own rate and you'll find ways of making the system work for you and your preferred style of shooting; that's a part of the fun! You are completely at liberty to bend the system to your way of doing things. I'm sure the guys from 2CELLOS get told all the time to do things in the time honoured and classical way and they stuck two fingers up to that!
 
Maybe, just maybe, getting into LF would HELP me become a more careful and methodical photographer!?

Well, I'm sure you'll have a chance to try LF photography on the Scottish jaunt - assuming that you haven't succumbed before then :D
 
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