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An Independent Scotland?
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It's the less lucky that are the ones feeling unhelped - below is an analysis showing voting tendency correlated with poverty percentage by region - the higher the deprivation, the more the people wanted out from under the Westminster "help" that has been given to them their entire lives. We shouldn't dismiss that - these are regions that see a trickle of a turnout for general or local elections (don't even think about Euro elections) - total disenchantment. For this they turned out in droves, and as you can see the highest deprivations regions almost all voted yes.
So too with votes by age - for under 55 it is a "Yes" - only when adding in the over 55s and especially over 65s does it get pulled back to No. What happens in five or 10 years when that demographic has shifted? Indeed what happens over the next months when we find the promises(*) being shown for the carrot they were, and people realised it's not happening? Or in a general election year Scotland gets the backlash of a UKIP for daring to try and stand on it's own two feet?
(*) To be clear, we are told up here that we gain financially from the union, in as much as being given more benefits - and that we will be given more. I personally don't want that - such approach generates a benefits culture which is great for politicians doling it out (create dependent voters, bribing them with other people's money), but is cancer for the country, killing society and the desire/opportunity to create. I don't want the current "more benefits than other regions" and I don't want new. But I expect these promises will be smoke - Cameron is not suicidal, and following through on non-legally binding promises, against the will of other parties and against the will of the people of England - is political suicide.
BoJo for next Tory party leader....?
arclight
Oooh that burglar's a cutie
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Heard some on the radio yesterday refer to her as Lady Macbeth.
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Mother, your slip is showing
All three major Westminster parties agreed to the additional powers to be proposed. Brown announced several of them. Clegg announced some, Cameron has already spoken about powers for all countries.
Bojo? There's more to being a leader than just being popular. Can you really imagine him on the world stage? We'd be a laughing stock. Boris Yeltsin anyone?
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Crazy. How on earth can you be trusted to vote when you cannot:
Leave school
Drink
Smoke
Buy a jazz mag
Take or pose for naughty pics
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It's the less lucky that are the ones feeling unhelped - below is an analysis showing voting tendency correlated with poverty percentage by region - the higher the deprivation, the more the people wanted out from under the Westminster "help" that has been given to them their entire lives. We shouldn't dismiss that - these are regions that see a trickle of a turnout for general or local elections (don't even think about Euro elections) - total disenchantment. For this they turned out in droves, and as you can see the highest deprivations regions almost all voted yes.
So too with votes by age - for under 55 it is a "Yes" - only when adding in the over 55s and especially over 65s does it get pulled back to No. What happens in five or 10 years when that demographic has shifted? Indeed what happens over the next months when we find the promises(*) being shown for the carrot they were, and people realised it's not happening? Or in a general election year Scotland gets the backlash of a UKIP for daring to try and stand on it's own two feet?
(*) To be clear, we are told up here that we gain financially from the union, in as much as being given more benefits - and that we will be given more. I personally don't want that - such approach generates a benefits culture which is great for politicians doling it out (create dependent voters, bribing them with other people's money), but is cancer for the country, killing society and the desire/opportunity to create. I don't want the current "more benefits than other regions" and I don't want new. But I expect these promises will be smoke - Cameron is not suicidal, and following through on non-legally binding promises, against the will of other parties and against the will of the people of England - is political suicide.
BoJo for next Tory party leader....?
Interesting - Scottish indépendant was "scuppered" by the over 55's - maybe they thought that their pensions and savings were at risk
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I'd prefer that you were right, but "political promise" is an oxymoron of the first order. Remember Cameron's "cast iron guarantee" of a referendum on Europe? Smoke. This wasn't even cast iron - and day 1 commitment has already come and gone. The day after a No vote, precisely nothing happened.Mother, your slip is showing
All three major Westminster parties agreed to the additional powers to be proposed. Brown announced several of them. Clegg announced some, Cameron has already spoken about powers for all countries.
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That's like saying Tiger Woods is good at putting. He's a politician, of course he'll be good at that, as it's a huge aspect of the role. They all are.
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Seriously?
A campaign based on saying generally positive stuff only, no detail of what would actually happen, anyone questions anything are ignored or made out to be scaremongering.
An economic policy worked out on the back of a fag packet.
Chaos would ensue.
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Or alternatively, and I suggest more fundamentally: how on earth can you be required to pay income tax and yet not have any say over what the government does with those tax receipts?
"No taxation without representation." That was a popular slogan, once.
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As expected Tories now semi back tracking on promises
"English votes for English Law" must be linked with the promises made
clearly a strategy to torpedo the Labour Party
Gordon Brown has denied a political come back, so he must be on the way back
"English votes for English Law" must be linked with the promises made
clearly a strategy to torpedo the Labour Party
Gordon Brown has denied a political come back, so he must be on the way back
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That's not backtracking. It's obvious that there can't be any further devolution without addressing the West Lothian question. Anyone who thought otherwise was naive or deluded.
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... below is an analysis showing voting tendency correlated with poverty percentage by region - the higher the deprivation, the more the people wanted out from under the Westminster "help" that has been given to them their entire lives.
That's a very interesting piece of analysis but your conclusion is not sound.
Let's assume for the moment that the measure of 'deprivation' which is being used here is meaningful. There are all sorts of reasons why it might not be, but that's a separate discussion. Even so, all you can conclude from the graph is that, in general, areas with higher levels of deprivation had higher Yes votes. But you cannot infer from the data why that happened.
Here are some possible explanations:
(a) The higher the deprivation, the more the people wanted out from under the Westminster "help" that has been given to them their entire lives.
(b) Well-off people who live in areas of high deprivation have acute social consciences and believe that the less fortunate amongst them would be better helped by an independent Scottish government.
(c) People on benefits think they'd be more likely to get more benefits under a presumably left wing Scottish government.
(d) Losers who have made messes of their lives like to blame anyone but themselves for their situation, and sticking it to the evil Tories is a knee-jerk response.
Take your pick.
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I don't disagree with you, StewartR - I also think a big driver re: "haves" and "have nots" is about risk and reward. Simply, if you have nowt, you have little to risk in seeking change where there is likely greater upside than downside. The converse is also true: those who have some (but not huge amounts of) wealth will more likely view substantial/constitutional change as putting that at greater risk. Interestingly, there's a third category (let's call it the "Souter-McColl" category) who are so wealthy that even if they lost a chunk of that wealth, they'd still be crazily wealthy. For them, the Yes is more about being central to a campaign and potentially being the dukes in a new kingdom.
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Oh absolutely. My point was simply that the data may show patterns in the voting, but they are totally silent on the reasons behind those patterns.
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Nope, it's completely unfair that Scottish and Welsh MPs can vote on English only laws. That's something that should have been stopped when our regional assemblies were first set up.
Where do you get these ideas from? 16 year olds in Scotland:
- Can leave school, and are liable for NI contributions and income tax if they're working.
- Can drink beer, wine or cider with a meal in licensed premises, and there are no restrictions on consuming alcohol at home or in any other private place
- Can't buy cigarettes, but are not breaking any law by smoking unless they're in a place where it's prohibited.
- Can have a sexual relationship, and have children.
- Can get married without parental consent.
- Can take and pose for photographs which might otherwise be considered indecent, if they're married to or living in a similar relationship with the other party.
- Can join the armed forces, with parental consent.
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That is not what I said …. I may agree with you but they never mentioned what is comically known as the West Lothian question when they made the "vow".
This also plays into the hands of the Tory party as far as their representation in any English "Parliament" is concerned versus the Socialists………. if it ever comes off
Smart move on behalf of the Tories and a delaying tactic ……. the Labour lot are already voicing their disapproval
It will also be amusing to watch the Brown v Milliband struggle ……. all of a sudden Brown has become more articulate
Plenty of scope for the Westminster mob to start playing their "games" …….. would you trust any of them?
As I keep saying "a buggers muddle" …………. IMHO it would have been far better had the Yes vote prevailed and Alex S will be proved "right" looking back in a few years time.
Politicians are no different now than they were a few weeks ago and we will get the same results and performance from them ………. be sceptical and then you will not be too disappointed …… the majority of them are shyster's
An old sceptics view who has been around (voting) since the mid 1960's
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Feeling gutted about the result I was all for Independence. I just hope that we do indeed get the improved devolution thats been promised. Barely 24 hours after the results and it already looks like its going to be a struggle to get anything significant.
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It didn't need to be said. It was obvious.
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I agree, it is obvious.
Also, although I think the greater devolved powers will happen, I don't think the time scales are very realistic.
There is agreement, or so it seems amongst the Libs and Cons, but Labour seem to have issues with it.
Cameron may have played a bit of a blinder here, in one stroke, makes Millband look like the villain, gets to blame them for the delay and somehow, and I don't get this, has wormed his way into being very popular!
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Including being obvious to all the Scottish No voters, do you mean?
or just the few who follow such things
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I'm sure we'll all by listening to Her Maj since her and her family are a shining light to the rest of us. Take our money to fritter and blow on bloody thoroughbred horses when people are standing in line at food banks. The most dysfunctional family in the UK of which she is the head and you hope we listen to her. I'd rather go for a drink and swim with Michael Barrymore !!
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Well when my 6yo son saved his pocket money and bought a toy at toys r us he pays tax (vat) so surely he should have the vote too?
Does that also mean then that people who don't pay income tax should still vote?
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Hi
I agree the older voter might have scuppered your yes vote for me I was born much nearer the ww2 and feel better together
I hope that the Conservative and Labour do honour the promise but I hope you would respect scottish MPS should not vote on English issues
I think we need a vote on moving Westminster I would back you moving it to Edinburgh if the main parties do not honour the promises I will vote UKIP The majority of MPS are useless
Hope this posts ok Virgin media ips keeps dying on me
FWIW I would back Scotland on more devolution
I agree the older voter might have scuppered your yes vote for me I was born much nearer the ww2 and feel better together
I hope that the Conservative and Labour do honour the promise but I hope you would respect scottish MPS should not vote on English issues
I think we need a vote on moving Westminster I would back you moving it to Edinburgh if the main parties do not honour the promises I will vote UKIP The majority of MPS are useless
Hope this posts ok Virgin media ips keeps dying on me
FWIW I would back Scotland on more devolution
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Of course it doesn't. You've committed a logical fallacy. If "A" implies "B", it absolutely does not follow logically that "not A" implies "not B".
Now you're being silly.
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Scotland, what recourse do you have if Westminster does not deliver what you think you have been promised?
I have no idea as an Englishman what's been promised and Brown seems to make up the "I vow" as he goes along and seems to be operating in a flood of patriotic emotion.
Cameron is now more concerned about establishing "only the English can vote on English issues"
Both sides have been extremely vague in some areas, the "vow" being one of them
Milliband have been eclipsed by Brown and Clegg is not sure what day it is
The British PM visited Scotland once at the important time, made a speech to an invited select audience, and then p1ssed off back to London. Did he speak to the Scottish people, the Union may be important to him, but I am not sure what else is north of the M4.
Milliband never got a chance to say anything and just walked around in small circles for an hour or so with his cheesy grin
I suppose you can kick out any Tory, Labour or LibDem MP's that you have in the Scottish Assembly the next time around and replace them with SNP supporters.
I have no idea as an Englishman what's been promised and Brown seems to make up the "I vow" as he goes along and seems to be operating in a flood of patriotic emotion.
Cameron is now more concerned about establishing "only the English can vote on English issues"
Both sides have been extremely vague in some areas, the "vow" being one of them
Milliband have been eclipsed by Brown and Clegg is not sure what day it is
The British PM visited Scotland once at the important time, made a speech to an invited select audience, and then p1ssed off back to London. Did he speak to the Scottish people, the Union may be important to him, but I am not sure what else is north of the M4.
Milliband never got a chance to say anything and just walked around in small circles for an hour or so with his cheesy grin
I suppose you can kick out any Tory, Labour or LibDem MP's that you have in the Scottish Assembly the next time around and replace them with SNP supporters.
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Now there is a good idea...Weighting of your vote in accordance to the amount of tax you pay! I like that....
JP for Prime Minister very soon
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I think it's a bit of a stretch to set up the Tories as being Machiavellian here.
For starters, 'English votes for English laws' doesn't play into their hands as much as Scottish independence would have. If the Tories were interested in consolidating their power base in England - given that Scotland is a write-off for them - they'd have been supporting independence. But instead they campaigned against it.
And secondly, it's been obvious since at least 1977 that this is what devolution would lead to, but it wasn't the Tories who brought in devolution for Scotland and Wales. It was the Blair government. I would ask whether they thought it through properly at the time, but I think we all know what the answer to that is.
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Yes, thats right, the spongers, I mean, costing 56p from each of us, what an outrage!
Last family I saw stood outside a food bank was smoking.....Oh well, too broke to buy food, but can afford to smoke.
I wonder how much Cameron costs? How much did Salmond cost the Scots? Was it 56p each...Erm no, it's much more. And whats the alternatives costs? A president? Much more.
So what about the income from having a Royal Family? Oh yes, we'll forget that, it's not convenient to mention that we make on having a Monarchy.
Dysfunctional in your eyes maybe. But if you want to live in the past, why don't you mention that they must have terminal syphilis and behead peasants too?
At least she's tried. Salmond just ran away, so no brave heart there. Dear Nicola hasn't been heard of since yesterday morning.
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Got to agree with this...I'm not ashamed to admit to being a royalist and the younger royals are proving to be a shining light to how to behave
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I never said that the Tories were Machiavellian or had planned this - I would not credit them with that much forethought before the event …… it is just a consequence of what is now happening
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OK, fair enough. I saw you wrote "smart move by the Tories", but perhaps I was reading something into it that wasn't there. No problem.
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Try looking into the queens finances and then see how much she pays against how much the civil list pay, rather than just spouting off and showing your ignorance.