Are Red Kites A Threat?

[Stuart Philpott]

Interesting read.. @Cobra Chris cool hearing a falconers POV mate I'm preddy sure the guy looking out for 'em a Nant y arian said there was german blood brought in there.maybe I'm mistaken, but as harebrain as I am I listen hard when talkiing to folks like that.

@sphexx Rich I'm told kites predate leverets...........I have not seen this but I trust my source......what I have seen though is an adult hare literally chase a kite off the ground.....such a shame Ii didn't just raise the camera for a very long range grab shot. TBH my jaw had dropped as the hare's behaviour stunned me. Kite landed again maybe 50 yards further on and again the hare was all over it front feet flailing claws out.....twas some sight.
Frankly I see hares liying out with no cover early in the year before the crops grow regularly................ I share a fraction of those images here I make. Do I think a red kite could predate leverets..........probably yes.but primarily they are scavangers. BOPS and corvid for that matter are bright sparks individuals learn ways of nabbing food as Steve illustrated above, but not all of them learn those skills.

Me I'm pragmatic when I was little the red kite was one of our most threatened birds did their numbers dip to 28 individuals? So to see this awesome bird return and thier numbers soar, frankly makes a kidlets heart ( mine ) sing..........It a bird I thought I would never see.

Do I think any bird of prey ( OK lets us widen that to predator being brought back from the brink will have fall out in our very denuded messed up ecosystem ....well of course.we will see that with white tails we might if I have my way see it with lynx we will see it with martens.

somewhere someone or something will suffer when we as a nation try to restore past wrongs.

I was born in the west mids knew of a birdy called a common buzzard from early never saw one.moved to Devon aged 8 tagged one in my first weeks....and I have birder friends whom now worry on the impact of kite on buzz. Moved back to midlands mid 20's slowly started to see the local buzz pop rise and rise.

Buzz and kite were designed to be here live alongside each other they target different niches with overlaps..I don't really see kite impactiing buzz in a huge way ....to me they will find a balance

How one qualifies that balance in blighty with the humongous mess we have made here .I dunno tis above me pay grade.

We are better off for having the magnificance of a red kite soaring over head...that's the bit I know.

the rest well whatdaaya do @Gav.we only build houses cause folks haven't yet logged on the the cold hard simple fact that it's cool to have one child for environmental reasons. I finish a house and have work because it's wonderful to have 3,4, or 5 kids. But our planet is a finite resourse and folks see self not the big piccy

I don't apologise for trying me best daily to make a home for someone bud...but with all my heart I wish there wasn't the demand

In my lifetime we have watched the biggest global extinction since the dinos.hmm that's your amphibians guys.......but that catastrophe is slowly but surely being extended across almost all genra

so can't we just celebrate a stunning bird with a silly floppy wingspan a little boy yearned to see, as a success.

Then use that success as a positive inspiration of what we can do to build on

for what our kids would like to see?


bye
stu

 

[the black fox]

sorry but I really do have to laugh at some of the comments .. small birds or lack of is pretty general this year .most likely due to the weather and bird flu .. do kites take live prey probable if there hungry enough , but so do sparrowhawks,peregrines, buzzards, etc add gulls ,crows ,ravens to that and then add herons that love a tasty water rail … I have photos of gulls with goose eggs , egrets with voles and rats . I now presume Your getting the picture it’s nature eat to survive there not in a zoo being fed by keepers … and as for red Kites taking fish so do ospreys , but a lot of red kites will have learned that trick at nant-y-Arian which is a mid wales feeding* station over a lake a lot of food drops in the lake and sometimes fish get taken with it or instead of it .
Owls take voles,mice ,rats etc kestrels then rob the prey from the owls
Another factor in this saga is the increase in rats ,stoats and other nest raiders .,plus a Probable increase in foxes due to hunting restrictions . So after Giving your head a shake can anyone blame things on one particular species of bird .

The one apex predator that doesn’t however get a mention in that article is mankind , give a man a gun and anything that takes a breath is in danger . Nuff said

 

[jerry12953]

Red kites are so common here now that some people have been saying they ought to be culled. The first person I heard saying this was a ranting farmer who obviously hated anything with a hooked beak but more recently someone who I know and thought was reasonably sane said the same thing. Kites are very visible at just about all times of the year so it is easy to think that they are now more common than buzzards whereas the reverse was very definitely the case. However - and I have been surveying red kites this year - in the early spring when buzzards as well as kites are displaying - you realise there still are plenty of buzzards around. it's just that they are more secretive. However before any possible red kite cull (and I would hate to see it) there should be some serious research done on their breeding success, their relationship with buzzards, what they eat, etc, etc. But who would pay for it? There just isn't the money around for that sort of thing. In the past (?1980's I think) some serious research WAS done on the buzzards, kites, crows, ravens, etc in the Welsh uplands but things have changed so much since then.

It may be the case that kites do eat live prey but they are just as likely to take the young from a crow's nest than anything else that we might value rather more. As regards the article the author may have a point but has anyone heard of the "Songbird Survival Trust"? - sounds nice and cuddly doesn't it? But it's a cover for yet another branch of the "I hate anything with a hooked beak" brigade. It's possible the author may think along those lines, and The Spectator is hardly the sort of publication that any serious conservationist would think of reading (or writing for).

Re-reading the article he's linking various events like extinctions and re-introductions without having any evidence at all that any of those events are linked in any way. I rest my case.

 

[myotis]

Red kites are so common here now that some people have been saying they ought to be culled. The first person I heard saying this was a ranting farmer who obviously hated anything with a hooked beak but more recently someone who I know and thought was reasonably sane said the same thing. Kites are very visible at just about all times of the year so it is easy to think that they are now more common than buzzards whereas the reverse was very definitely the case. However - and I have been surveying red kites this year - in the early spring when buzzards as well as kites are displaying - you realise there still are plenty of buzzards around. it's just that they are more secretive. However before any possible red kite cull (and I would hate to see it) there should be some serious research done on their breeding success, their relationship with buzzards, what they eat, etc, etc. But who would pay for it? There just isn't the money around for that sort of thing. In the past (?1980's I think) some serious research WAS done on the buzzards, kites, crows, ravens, etc in the Welsh uplands but things have changed so much since then.

It may be the case that kites do eat live prey but they are just as likely to take the young from a crow's nest than anything else that we might value rather more. As regards the article the author may have a point but has anyone heard of the "Songbird Survival Trust"? - sounds nice and cuddly doesn't it? But it's a cover for yet another branch of the "I hate anything with a hooked beak" brigade. It's possible the author may think along those lines, and The Spectator is hardly the sort of publication that any serious conservationist would think of reading (or writing for).

The scientific studies I cited from in my earlier post had small mammals as the commonest live prey, along with carrion.

I can't be bothered digging the stuff out again, but I can't remember song birds being mentioned, but when birds were taken it seemed to be more chicks of larger birds: corvids, gulls and ground nesters.

 

[sphexx]

But it's a cover for yet another branch of the "I hate anything with a hooked beak" brigade. It's possible the author may think

This almost mythical brigade may exist but if it does it seems to be balanced by a “I love any thing with a hooked beak” brigade .

 

[jerry12953]

The scientific studies I cited from in my earlier post had small mammals as the commonest live prey, along with carrion.

I can't be bothered digging the stuff out again, but I can't remember song birds being mentioned, but when birds were taken it seemed to be more chicks of larger birds: corvids, gulls and ground nesters.

........ I only mentioned songbirds because of the harmless sounding charity that is in fact a cover for the removal of predators.

 

[jerry12953]

This almost mythical brigade may exist but if it does it seems to be balanced by a “I love any thing with a hooked beak” brigade .

All the scientific studies have shown that it is the availability of prey which governs the number of predators rather than the other way round. (although I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.....)

 

[sphexx]

I have no opinion on the culling of red kites but on culling generally there’s seems to be a lot of people against it in principle on the grounds that it is “interfering“ with the natural world but they seem blind to the fact that introductions/reintroductions are also “interferences” of the same or even greater order .

 

[jerry12953]

I have no opinion on the culling of red kites but on culling generally there’s seems to be a lot of people against it in principle on the grounds that it is “interfering“ with the natural world but they seem blind to the fact that introductions/reintroductions are also “interferences” of the same or even greater order .

All official introductions/re-introductions have to satisfy something like 53 conditions - agreed internationally - before they can go ahead!

 

[sphexx]

All the scientific studies have shown that it is the availability of prey which governs the number of predators rather than the other way round. (although I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.....)

That’s true as a general rule and you can see many cases where the rise and fall in numbers of prey species (usually due in turn to availability of food) is mirrored with a lag by the numbers of predators. Nevertheless this “natural” feature can be skewed by other factors in any particular case, some (many?) of them due to human activity.

 

[sphexx]

All official introductions/re-introductions have to satisfy something like 53 conditions - agreed internationally - before they can go ahead!

Of course! But while I have no direct knowledge of the reintroduction process I’m sure it operates in much the same way as our town planning system … ’nuff said? .

 

[jerry12953]

I think NRW is pretty strict about re-introductions in Wales. Pine Martens got the go-ahead but beavers still haven't - even though they have been re-introduced into countries all over Europe over the last 100 years. The farming/landowning lobby here is too powerful.

But are you suggesting that bulging brown envelopes change hands at Council meetings? Surely not!

 

[sphexx]

I think NRW is pretty strict about re-introductions in Wales. Pine Martens got the go-ahead but beavers still haven't - even though they have been re-introduced into countries all over Europe over the last 100 years. The farming/landowning lobby here is too powerful.

But are you suggesting that bulging brown envelopes change hands at Council meetings? Surely not!

No I’m not. I dare say some of that goes on but the corruption is more sophisticated generally as with the national governments. What I mean is that the processes are very complicated and often skewed to produce a desired effect. I suppose (not previously having given it much thought) that ”reintroduction” will generally be considered to be a “good thing” — because it’s just restoring ”balance” or the “status who ante” — and the process skewed to permit it. Much like there’s a built in bias towards ”development” in town planning because it’s seen as a “good thing“ and “we need more houses” or whatever.

 

[Cobra]

My info here is all a bit out of date, but the main part of their diet seems to be small mammals (50 -60%) voles and mice but also rats, young rabbits and young hares.

Location seems to play a big part of that, I've never seen a Red Kite kill.
As before, I'm not saying they don't kill, just that there are much more easy pickings in some areas,
so why bother?

The only small "pocket" of indigenous red kites was in central Wales;

I was very reliably informed by those that know, they also existed in the very north in very tiny numbers.
And pretty much extinct country wide by the late 1800's
It's like a lot of things that most people don't see, doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[sphexx]

It's like a lot of things that most people don't see, doesn't mean they don't exist.

And sometimes they know but don’t talk about them to strangers . I remember reading a long time ago that Ernest Neal wrote that when he moved to the New Forest the locals had no idea that badgers existed in the area. i can think of many reasons why they may have given him that impression

 

[Cobra]

And sometimes they know but don’t talk about them to strangers

Absolutely and that was probably more what I was getting at TBH

 

[myotis]

Location seems to play a big part of that, I've never seen a Red Kite kill.
As before, I'm not saying they don't kill, just that there are much more easy pickings in some areas,
so why bother?

Yes, the studies show marked geographical differences in diet., and that individual birds might specialise in a particular diet, but the general rule (as I'm sure you know) is that animals follow the most energy efficient approach to finding food,

However, if we are looking at a naturally expanding population, with birds pushed into new areas with varying types of available food resources, those studies, albeit old, still give an indication of the range of feeding behaviours they are capable of. From what I read, they don't seem to be the most efficient of "live" killers out there.

I still find articles like the one linked to as general scaremongering however, even if I wouldn't rule out killing an identified individual, if it's causing serious problems.

 

[jerry12953]

No I’m not. I dare say some of that goes on but the corruption is more sophisticated generally as with the national governments. What I mean is that the processes are very complicated and often skewed to produce a desired effect. I suppose (not previously having given it much thought) that ”reintroduction” will generally be considered to be a “good thing” — because it’s just restoring ”balance” or the “status who ante” — and the process skewed to permit it. Much like there’s a built in bias towards ”development” in town planning because it’s seen as a “good thing“ and “we need more houses” or whatever.

This is very much off-topic but given that national policy is to build more houses, that trickles down to all levels of government and the presumption is "build more houses". I think what happens in local government - at least what happens round here - is that councillors tend to be from a certain section of society, and that these individuals tend to favour the activities of their fellows. It's particularly the case with farmers and small businessmen. It doesn't seem to matter what "policy" is or what the Officers have recommended.

But that is all very different to re-introduction of species, which is what we're talking about here. As I said the rules about what you can and what you can't re-introduce are very strict. Perhaps with red kites there was no expectation that their numbers would expand SO quickly. But given what has happened in Wales, where there were no re-introductions of red kites, and numbers have also expanded dramatically, it doesn't follow that kites should not have been re-introduced because they would become very numerous very quickly.

 

[juggler]

Red kites are so common here now that some people have been saying they ought to be culled. The first person I heard saying this was a ranting farmer who obviously hated anything with a hooked beak but more recently someone who I know and thought was reasonably sane said the same thing. Kites are very visible at just about all times of the year so it is easy to think that they are now more common than buzzards whereas the reverse was very definitely the case. However - and I have been surveying red kites this year - in the early spring when buzzards as well as kites are displaying - you realise there still are plenty of buzzards around. it's just that they are more secretive. However before any possible red kite cull (and I would hate to see it) there should be some serious research done on their breeding success, their relationship with buzzards, what they eat, etc, etc. But who would pay for it? There just isn't the money around for that sort of thing. In the past (?1980's I think) some serious research WAS done on the buzzards, kites, crows, ravens, etc in the Welsh uplands but things have changed so much since then.

I was thinking about buzzards just this morning; red kites do seem to be displacing them here in NW Essex.

 

[jerry12953]

I was very reliably informed by those that know, they also existed in the very north in very tiny numbers.

You haven't specified which "north" that was but it is very widely accepted that red kites were exterminated across the whole of the UK other than a small remnant population in central Wales.

 

[jerry12953]

I was thinking about buzzards just this morning; red kites do seem to be displacing them here in NW Essex.

It's probably only quite a short time ago that there were no buzzards at all (or red kites) in NW Essex. Buzzard population has expanded very quickly across most of the UK in recent years. And do bear in mind that buzzards are more secretive than kites!

 

[sphexx]

On a general point about live prey versus carrion it always puzzles me why people think birds (and other animals) would make that distinction. They don’t wait around and see if it moves/breathes it’s more grab and go and given that so many young animals adopt a ”still” pose when alone it seems likely they would be vulnerable to birds such as kites.

The other factor is that parent birds do distinguish between what is appropriate food for them and what is right for chicks. Not quite the same case but tits feed on seeds but, at least in my garden, don’t feed them to offspring. My bantam hens (living “wild” in garden) would only feed live food to chicks though they would eat grain or dried mealworms themselves.

 

[sphexx]

It's probably only quite a short time ago that there were no buzzards at all (or red kites) in NW Essex. Buzzard population has expanded very quickly across most of the UK in recent years. And do bear in mind that buzzards are more secretive than kites!

I think I read somewhere that buzzards were “replacing” sparrowhawks though a quick google seems not to turn up any references.

 

[jerry12953]

I think I read somewhere that buzzards were “replacing” sparrowhawks though a quick google seems not to turn up any references.

I can't imagine why that would be as buzzards and sparrowhawks have very different habitat preferences and means of catching their prey.

 

[Cobra]

Yes, the studies show marked geographical differences in diet., and that individual birds might specialise in a particular diet, but the general rule (as I'm sure you know) is that animals follow the most energy efficient approach to finding food,

However, if we are looking at a naturally expanding population, with birds pushed into new areas with varying types of available food resources, those studies, albeit old, still give an indication of the range of feeding behaviours they are capable of. From what I read, they don't seem to be the most efficient of "live" killers out there.

I still find articles like the one linked to as general scaremongering however, even if I wouldn't rule out killing an identified individual, if it's causing serious problems.

My bolds,
1) yes that is exactly what I've been saying all along.
2) Yes, that is exactly what I've been saying all along.

I think I read somewhere that buzzards were “replacing” sparrowhawks though a quick google seems not to turn up any references.

Sparrow hawks predate "feather" Buzzards largely fur carrion but will take feather carrion and worms etc as available.
So there is no real conflict of interest food wise.
However,
they can be a threat to Sparrow hawks, inasmuch as birds of prey "mantle" over a kill on the ground, cover it over with their wings and tail, for fear of another predator circling above, coming in and rob the kill. and may take the "Killer" as well, if its small enough.

 

[sphexx]

Sparrow hawks predate "feather" Buzzards largely fur carrion but will take feather carrion and worms etc as available.
So there is no real conflict of interest food wise.
However,
they can be a threat to Sparrow hawks, inasmuch as birds of prey "mantle" over a kill on the ground, cover it over with their wings and tail, for fear of another predator circling above, coming in and rob the kill. and may take the "Killer" as well, if its small enough.

I think I misremembered and that it was probably increasing goshawk numbers outcompeting sparrowhawks particularly in more wooded areas. Makes more sense but irrelevant to present discussion .

 

[myotis]

My bolds,
1) yes that is exactly what I've been saying all along.
2) Yes, that is exactly what I've been saying all along.

Yes, and I haven't been disagreeing, just adding a bit of background from some kite feeding studies. As the "most efficient" feeding strategy varies between species, t's useful to get an idea of the ecological niche a particular species might fit into and how that might affect competition with other species. Or indeed how you need to manage for that species.

I suspect all species will take advantage of carrion, but some species are better adapted to catch live prey than others.

 

[jerry12953]

I think I misremembered and that it was probably increasing goshawk numbers outcompeting sparrowhawks particularly in more wooded areas. Makes more sense but irrelevant to present discussion .

Goshawks are something else altogether!

 

[jerry12953]

Yes, and I haven't been disagreeing, just adding a bit of background from some kite feeding studies. As the "most efficient" feeding strategy varies between species, t's useful to get an idea of the ecological niche a particular species might fit into and how that might affect competition with other species. Or indeed how you need to manage for that species.

I suspect all species will take advantage of carrion, but some species are better adapted to catch live prey than others.

This idea of ecological niches is very interesting and very relevant. In ecological studies it tends to be assumed that every ecological niche is already filled and that all ecological relationships are fixed. But the experience we have had in recent years with red kites suggests otherwise. This applies both to the areas where they have been introduced and where they have expanded more or less naturally from very low numbers (like in Wales). There are other examples such as the quite sudden arrival of species like little egrets, and now great egrets, and several other heron species. How can these newly arrived species survive unless there are vacant niches? It does suggest that "nature" is constantly changing in all sorts of ways and that some extinctions are also naturally determined, which leads to dilemmas for environmentalists!

 

[Cobra]

I think I misremembered and that it was probably increasing goshawk numbers outcompeting sparrowhawks particularly in more wooded areas. Makes more sense but irrelevant to present discussion .

Although they are both Accipiters ( True Hawks) Goshawks are muck larger and take much larger prey including "fur" they are indeed kings of the forest.
But I'm not sure there would be much conflict between them, food wise.

This idea of ecological niches is very interesting and very relevant. In ecological studies it tends to be assumed that every ecological niche is already filled and that all ecological relationships are fixed.

I remember many years ago, one professor saying that Nature abhors a vacuum.
Wise words.

 

[myotis]

This idea of ecological niches is very interesting and very relevant. In ecological studies it tends to be assumed that every ecological niche is already filled and that all ecological relationships are fixed. But the experience we have had in recent years with red kites suggests otherwise. This applies both to the areas where they have been introduced and where they have expanded more or less naturally from very low numbers (like in Wales). There are other examples such as the quite sudden arrival of species like little egrets, and now great egrets, and several other heron species. How can these newly arrived species survive unless there are vacant niches? It does suggest that "nature" is constantly changing in all sorts of ways and that some extinctions are also naturally determined, which leads to dilemmas for environmentalists!

When I was teaching this stuff, I used to tell students to think of niches as "jobs" needed to keep a society functioning rather than fixed "places" that animals move into fill. This means that niches are likely to constantly change, and the behaviour, ecology and biology of species will change dynamically as each tries to both find, and create, a niche it can survive in.

But certainly there have been apparently vacant niches. Apparently, the influx of Iberian Marsh Frogs on the Somerset levels hasn't affected native amphibians, and provide a super abundant food supply for great white egrets and possibly the other herons.

There is also a nice example with stoats in Ireland, where they don't have weasels but the stoats cover a wider body size range than stoats do in Britain, while also not becoming as large as British stoats, So it seems that Stoats in Ireland do the "job" that weasels and stoats do in Britain, but with something else in Ireland doing the job that the larger stoats do in the UK. It's much more complicated and interesting than this, but it’s a nice example of niche ecology.

 

[sphexx]

Although they are both Accipiters ( True Hawks) Goshawks are muck larger and take much larger prey including "fur" they are indeed kings of the forest.
But I'm not sure there would be much conflict between them, food wise.

It’s sort of coming back to me now that the article (and I can’t recall where I read it) was claiming that increasing goshawk numbers were “driving” sparrowhawks out of woodland since they outdid them in manoevrebility there. Seems possible. I’ll shut up now since I’m only ”quoting“ a dim though recent memory of what may have been a one-off report!

 

[Cobra]

since they outdid them in manoevrebility there. Seems possible.

Having flown both, I'll concur. Spars are much better at skimming hedgerows, darting one side to the other, flushing ut LBJ's.
But as you say, its not about the native hawks.

 

[jerry12953]

I would say that the spread of goshawks has been a mixed blessing. Although they were once a native species apparently the current population is descended from birds released by falconers, or so i've read..

 

[Cobra]

from birds released by falconers, or so i've read..

They are quite expensive, ( Last time I looked) , so I doubt that they were released deliberately.
They are a bt of a nightmare to "control" stubborn at best.
Pure arse's at worst. If they get on a tail chase they just keep going...
If they make a kill, they are usually recoverable, if they miss, they'll put up in a tree and wait for the next opportunity.

So I would suggest they are lost birds, due to poor weight management.

 

[sphexx]

They are quite expensive, ( Last time I looked) , so I doubt that they were released deliberately.
They are a bt of a nightmare to "control" stubborn at best.
Pure arse's at worst. If they get on a tail chase they just keep going...
If they make a kill, they are usually recoverable, if they miss, they'll put up in a tree and wait for the next opportunity.

So I would suggest they are lost birds, due to poor weight management.

I don’t know how many lost ‘falcons’ there may be. I’ve only come across one. I was standing on a small hill when it appeared — had jesses so I knew it was someone’s bird. I tried twirling a rope I had with me as an imitation lure to attract it but although it made a number of passes it could no doubt clearly see there was nothing on the end to eat and it got fed up (see what I did there) and buggared off. Of course it may not have been lost at all and I would have been interfering unnecessarily -- I’ve had that experience with a dog being “found” before it was lost and then whisked 40 miles away and having to go and collect it .

 

[mex]

I agree, I know a local fishing club who are dead against Otters and Kingfishers, they've even shot the nature reserves images on the sign

Kingfishers! it's not as if they could take anything much bigger than a stickleback. Cormorants too, have been given the title 'black death' by fishermen, if the inshore fish stocks were not so decimated cormorants wouldn't need to be looking to survive by feeding in inland fresh water systems. Maybe the danglers go looking for an excuse when they fail to catch anything?

 

[jerry12953]

They are quite expensive, ( Last time I looked) , so I doubt that they were released deliberately.
They are a bt of a nightmare to "control" stubborn at best.
Pure arse's at worst. If they get on a tail chase they just keep going...
If they make a kill, they are usually recoverable, if they miss, they'll put up in a tree and wait for the next opportunity.

So I would suggest they are lost birds, due to poor weight management.

I believe the theory was that if they were released they would then begin to produce young which could be collected free of charge. In other words releasing a few (males and females) would be an investment.

 

[mex]

The only small "pocket" of indigenous red kites was in central Wales; they may have been down to a handful of pairs, possibly ten, during the 2nd world war. During the war , keepering was at a very low level, and the kites began a very, very slow increase. Almost all the welsh kites are descended from one female, genetic studies have shown, so they were THAT close to extinction. It was a German bird, IIRC. There was some tinkering with the breeding population over the decades (ie moving eggs from nest to nest and the like) but all Welsh birds are genuine , proper red kites, unlike the imports and their descendants found elsewhere in the UK. They are now very very common, in fact there were about 8 breeding pairs within a mile along the valley sides below my house this year. Some Welsh kites have been taken for re-introduction projects in Ireland, apparently.

I have seen estimates that there may be as many as 2500 pairs of kites in Wales now.

The Welsh kite population was rather restricted up until quite recently, before Gigrin farm became the popular place to see them (there's a few much better places and much cheaper to see and photograph them now) Tregaron was the always the place to go in the 70's and 80's if you wanted to see these incredible birds ,I don't recall a feeding station there, but I would stand corrected. Red Kites also migrate, only 3 weeks or so ago a flock of more than 50 were seen over St.Mary's on the Scilly islands, so there is the likelyhood of DNA from naturally occuring is quite high I would think.

 

[Jelster]

Kingfishers! it's not as if they could take anything much bigger than a stickleback. Cormorants too, have been given the title 'black death' by fishermen, if the inshore fish stocks were not so decimated cormorants wouldn't need to be looking to survive by feeding in inland fresh water systems. Maybe the danglers go looking for an excuse when they fail to catch anything?

Nothing against Kingfishers, but Commorants can decimate a lakes stock, I've seen it happen. When you have about 20 plus birds feeding in the lake every day, and they take fish over a kilo in weight, so not just small stuff. This lake also had a Heronry too, in the end the angling club gave the water up, it was too expensive to keep restocking. The one good thing that did come from it was that the bigger fish grew even bigger, but they were few & far between.