Are Red Kites A Threat?

[mex]

sorry but I really do have to laugh at some of the comments .. small birds or lack of is pretty general this year .most likely due to the weather and bird flu .. do kites take live prey probable if there hungry enough , but so do sparrowhawks,peregrines, buzzards, etc add gulls ,crows ,ravens to that and then add herons that love a tasty water rail … I have photos of gulls with goose eggs , egrets with voles and rats . I now presume Your getting the picture it’s nature eat to survive there not in a zoo being fed by keepers … and as for red Kites taking fish so do ospreys , but a lot of red kites will have learned that trick at nant-y-Arian which is a mid wales feeding* station over a lake a lot of food drops in the lake and sometimes fish get taken with it or instead of it .
Owls take voles,mice ,rats etc kestrels then rob the prey from the owls
Another factor in this saga is the increase in rats ,stoats and other nest raiders .,plus a Probable increase in foxes due to hunting restrictions . So after Giving your head a shake can anyone blame things on one particular species of bird .

The one apex predator that doesn’t however get a mention in that article is mankind , give a man a gun and anything that takes a breath is in danger . Nuff said

I was sat in a hide watching and photographing a family of long tailed tits fledge the nest, a Great spotted woodpecker saw and took the opportunity, the food circle has no rules, it's all about survival.

 

[mex]

Nothing against Kingfishers, but Commorants can decimate a lakes stock, I've seen it happen. When you have about 20 plus birds feeding in the lake every day, and they take fish over a kilo in weight, so not just small stuff. This lake also had a Heronry too, in the end the angling club gave the water up, it was too expensive to keep restocking. The one good thing that did come from it was that the bigger fish grew even bigger, but they were few & far between.

I wouldn't deny they do decimate fish stocks, but they are feasting on inland fresh water species because there's chuff all left for them in the sea.

 

[Jelster]

I wouldn't deny they do decimate fish stocks, but they are feasting on inland fresh water species because there's chuff all left for them in the sea.

That I agree with....

 

[jerry12953]

The Welsh kite population was rather restricted up until quite recently, before Gigrin farm became the popular place to see them (there's a few much better places and much cheaper to see and photograph them now) Tregaron was the always the place to go in the 70's and 80's if you wanted to see these incredible birds ,I don't recall a feeding station there, but I would stand corrected. Red Kites also migrate, only 3 weeks or so ago a flock of more than 50 were seen over St.Mary's on the Scilly islands, so there is the likelyhood of DNA from naturally occuring is quite high I would think.

The feeding stations may have been important for kite survival in the past (esp. in winter) but the amount of food put down for them in relation to the number of birds that gather there is quite restricted. The theory is that the feeding stations now provide a venue where young red kites can meet other young red kites - a bit like a red kite disco really. Yes, Tregaron was a "go-to" place for them in the past but the area where they survived even at their lowest ebb was probably the Upper Tywi valley in Carmarthenshire. There's more info in The Birds of Wales, if you have access to that.

I remember when I saw my first red kite. I had moved to the Aberystwyth area in 1978 and went on a bike ride fairly soon after that. I was already into photography and saw this big raptor appear out of some trees and quickly pressed the shutter. I was please to get a photo of a buzzard, I thought. It wasn't till I got the prints back from Max Spielmann that I saw its tail! That was near Tal-y-bont in Ceredigion.

 

[Ed Sutton]

.... the rules about what you can and what you can't re-introduce are very strict.

Yet in the case of some species (certainly beavers and butterflies) there have been unregulated, unsanctioned, and illegal introductions. Which makes a mockery of research and regulation.

As for the 'powerful farming lobby,' it is more than balanced (nationally) by the 'conservation lobby' which manages it's media PR far better in influencing the general public who are mostly uninformed from either perspective. Both lobbies are spinning evidence and opinion to their own ends. In these days of confrontational politics nobody seems interested in finding, or even looking for, a middle-ground compromise.

I wouldn't deny they do decimate fish stocks, but they are feasting on inland fresh water species because there's chuff all left for them in the sea.

That I agree with....

This is not completely true though. It's an example of spin becoming gospel.

"In England, the number nesting inland in trees has increased from just 151 pairs at one colony in 1986 to 1,334 pairs at 35 colonies in 1999–2002. This growth of inland colonies has been fuelled by the immigration of the sub-species P. c. sinensis from continental Europe. " https://jncc.gov.uk/our-work/great-cormorant-phalacrocorax-carbo/

The sinensis subsecies is an inland cormorant.

 

[jerry12953]

As for the 'powerful farming lobby,' it is more than balanced (nationally) by the 'conservation lobby' which manages it's media PR far better in influencing the general public who are mostly uninformed from either perspective. Both lobbies are spinning evidence and opinion to their own ends. In these days of confrontational politics nobody seems interested in finding, or even looking for, a middle-ground compromise.

I'll have to disagree with you there. Unfortunately the farming lobby has more friends in high places than the conservation lobby.

 

[Cobra]

I believe the theory was that if they were released they would then begin to produce young which could be collected free of charge. In other words releasing a few (males and females) would be an investment.

That is actually illegal, and very much hit and miss.
You maybe thinking of "tame hack" where amount of youngsters are released, initially fed, then left for about a year.

Then trapped, and "manned" ( trained to the fist) that would be done under special licence, as trapping BoP's is illegal.
The theory being they are fitter and more switched on as they don't need to be taught to hunt.

Rather like the American system, where they are allowed to trap wild birds and train them.
If they turn out not to make good falconry birds they are released, again.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

We used to have a Cat which would regularly bring back various small Mammals and Birds It's just what they do, but I'm sure a this none natural animal should be first on the list, We have tampered with nature far to long destroying all it's balances so the best cure for nature would be to get rid of us !

 

[sphexx]

Kingfishers! it's not as if they could take anything much bigger than a stickleback. Cormorants too, have been given the title 'black death' by fishermen, if the inshore fish stocks were not so decimated cormorants wouldn't need to be looking to survive by feeding in inland fresh water systems. Maybe the danglers go looking for an excuse when they fail to catch anything?

I’ve probably told this before but a few years ago a neighbour asked to borrow an air pistol (!) to shoot a kingfisher* that was taking his fish. Needless to say I discouraged him though it’s unlikely he would have had much success. Nowt so queer as folk.

* R. wharfe is just down the hill.

 

[mex]

This is not completely true though. It's an example of spin becoming gospel.

"In England, the number nesting inland in trees has increased from just 151 pairs at one colony in 1986 to 1,334 pairs at 35 colonies in 1999–2002. This growth of inland colonies has been fuelled by the immigration of the sub-species P. c. sinensis from continental Europe. " https://jncc.gov.uk/our-work/great-cormorant-phalacrocorax-carbo/

The sinensis subsecies is an inland cormorant.

Native P.c.carbo far out numbers P.c.sinensis, with carbo also nesting on inland waterways as well as their natural nesting sites on cliff walls. There is no getting away from it, the sea has been raped by us for profit and in turn those dependant on the sea as natural food source need to look elsewhere......inland fresh waterways.

Edit to add: sinensis is a smarter looking bird IMHO.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I'll have to disagree with you there. Unfortunately the farming lobby has more friends in high places than the conservation lobby.

Doesn't that depend on which political party we're talking about?

 

[sphexx]

Yet in the case of some species (certainly beavers and butterflies) there have been unregulated, unsanctioned, and illegal introductions. Which makes a mockery of research and regulation.

It would probably be reasonable to add mink to that list. I don’t know (probably no one does) what proportion were escapes or releases by opponents of fur farming.

 

[sphexx]

As for the 'powerful farming lobby,' it is more than balanced (nationally) by the 'conservation lobby' which manages it's media PR far better in influencing the general public who are mostly uninformed from either perspective. Both lobbies are spinning evidence and opinion to their own ends. In these days of confrontational politics nobody seems interested in finding, or even looking for, a middle-ground compromise.

The way these lobbies and opinions work is that they are heavily skewed. Eg there is currently a campaign against gun (of all kinds) ownership and it’s claimed (probably accurately) that 75% of the population are against people owning guns but I’m willing to bet that includes 0% of gun owners. Pick any minority hobby/ etc and people who don’t participate are likely to say there’s no reason for others to follow it. I have no idea what the figures are but I bet football causes more human injuries than legal gun ownership but good luck with getting 75% of the population wanting it banned.

I’d have a small bet that given the right circumstances it would be possible to get a majority vote against ownership of ’big’ digital cameras with long lenses .

And so on …

 

[jerry12953]

Doesn't that depend on which political party we're talking about?

Yes, I think it does. The one that's been in power for what seems like the last million years, I meant.......

I wonder if the other one will be willing to take on the massive landowning lobby, if it gets into power. I'm not sure it will, although the last time it did change the name of the relevant department from MAFF (Agriculture, food and farming) to DEFRA (Dept for the environment, farming and rural affairs. Certainly in Scotland with the SNP and the Greens in "coalition" there are moves afoot to break the stranglehold that the grouse shooting industry has on the uplands there..

 

[Ed Sutton]

Yes, I think it does. The one that's been in power for what seems like the last million years, I meant.......

I wonder if the other one will be willing to take on the massive landowning lobby, if it gets into power.

They seem more open to promoting a 'green agenda', but actually forcing anything true will likely depend on the size of their majority.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

add mink to that list

I'm led to believe Mink were already out there in Large numbers in some areas before the Animal Rights people let them loose to kill other animals ( That was clearly well thought out)

I bet football causes more human injuries than legal gun ownership but good luck with getting 75% of the population wanting it banned.

I would like to see Football Banned . When I turn up at work on a Monday all I can here is the Lads talking about who beat who , Yet when we all get shafted by Government ( especially this one) no one mentions a word. Also on my list would be smart phones , there turning the population into Zombies ! Alcohol must be responsible for lots of deaths and injuries as well but as I enjoy real Ale ! Maybe a test something like gun ownership should be applied to drinking and car ownership.

 

[the black fox]

I'm led to believe Mink were already out there in Large numbers in some areas before the Animal Rights people let them loose to kill other animals ( That was clearly well thought out)

I would like to see Football Banned . When I turn up at work on a Monday all I can here is the Lads talking about who beat who , Yet when we all get shafted by Government ( especially this one) no one mentions a word. Also on my list would be smart phones , there turning the population into Zombies ! Alcohol must be responsible for lots of deaths and injuries as well but as I enjoy real Ale ! Maybe a test something like gun ownership should be applied to drinking and car ownership.

As far as I’m aware mink are/ were a North American species .so not sure where they already out there in large numbers comes from ,we do have stoats ,weasels and ferrets ( from captive stoats ? ) also pine martens as native species ..and look what a few american grey squirrels did to our native reds … mankind introduces things for personal greed then moans when it gets out of control ..
and I know for a fact that black panther/ pumas are out there after a really close encounter

 

[Cobra]

As far as I’m aware mink are/ were a North American species

Yep. They arrived here in the 1920's. They were first noted breeding here in the mid 50's.
Escapee's from fur farms.

Over 3000 were released from fur farms late '60's (IIRC.)

 

[sphexx]

As far as I’m aware mink are/ were a North American species .so not sure where they already out there in large numbers

Definitely N American and I too think they are all relatively recent from fur farms by several routes. Some people think the welcome return of otters is ‘discouraging’ mink but I somehow doubt that as mink have access to other areas — they are terrific tree climbers for a start.

 

[Dale.]

Mink are very fiesty, or daft. I've been stared down by 2.

Utter menace.

I'd much rather see Red Kites.

 

[Cobra]

as mink have access to other areas — they are terrific tree climbers for a start.

I'm not sure if its still the law, but at one time land / water course owners had to control, do everything they could to remove / destroy Mink.
I favoured a fen MKVI and rotting fish heads

 

[Dale.]

I'm not sure if its still the law, but at one time land / water course owners had to control, do everything they could to remove / destroy Mink.
I favoured a fen MKVI and rotting fish heads

I've been out of the loop for a few years on the law regarding what species can be killed in the UK but I would imagine the law is roughly the same for mink as grey squirrel. If you catch/trap one, it's illegal to release it. You must kill humanely any mink you trap. Same for greys.

Also, quoting Gov.UK................... 'You can shoot free mink using a suitable firearm and ammunition.' I would add that you would have to have permission from the landowner to do so, or of course, be a landowner yourself.

I know if you have rabbits on your land, for example, you're legally bound to control them. I would imagine mink are in the same category.

Edit :- don't quote me on this, the devil is often in the detail with these things, it's also quite fluid.

 

[Cobra]

but I would imagine the law is roughly the same for mink as grey squirrel. If you catch/trap one, it's illegal to release it. You must kill humanely any mink you trap. Same for greys.

What I was getting at, you are / were legally bound to kill mink on your land,
gone are the days, when it was a couple of bob, for a squirrel tail though

 

[sphexx]

I'm not sure if its still the law, but at one time land / water course owners had to control, do everything they could to remove / destroy Mink.
I favoured a fen MKVI and rotting fish heads

They are very difficult/impossible to exterminate. I know of various stretches of rivers where they are trapped out but back again in the spring. I think the main thing is they don’t depend on rivers or lakes but can make do with drainage ditches and so on. They are wonderful beasts if you are not concerned for native wildlife and so. Probably you’ve seen the YouTube videos of so called “minkenry” by that Mormon.

 

[sphexx]

Also, quoting Gov.UK................... 'You can shoot free mink using a suitable firearm and ammunition.' I would add that you would have to have permission from the landowner to do so, or of course, be a landowner yourself.

Very unwise to even attempt to shoot anything without landowners permission as you would be committing armed trespass, a criminal offence unlike the plain vanilla kind. (IANAL).

 

[sphexx]

I'm not sure if its still the law, but at one time land / water course owners had to control, do everything they could to remove / destroy Mink.
I favoured a fen MKVI and rotting fish heads

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think fen traps can only legally be set in tunnels or similar. I think people use cage traps for mink … sometimes underwater sadly which suspect is illegal.

 

[Cobra]

They are very difficult/impossible to exterminate.

As is most things unless they are tasty, like the Dodo & Unicorns.

That's why its called Pest Control & Wildlife Management
Although they did have a good go at the Coypu, (a South American fur import in the 1920s)
They claimed they were extinct, ( late 80's iirc) but it wasn't long before they were spotted again.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think fen traps can only legally be set in tunnels or similar.

Either natural or artificial, yes.
And if you don't know what you are doing, you will break your fingers.

I think people use cage traps for mink

Good luck with getting one out of a live trap.
Of course, the best option is a 2 inch .410 cartridge, assuming you have shooting permission.
Not ideal if they are in a public space.

 

[sphexx]

As is most things unless they are tasty, like the Dodo & Unicorns.

That's why its called Pest Control & Wildlife Management
Although they did have a good go at the Coypu, (a South American fur import in the 1920s)
They claimed they were extinct, ( late 80's iirc) but it wasn't long before they were spotted again.


Either natural or artificial, yes.
And if you don't know what you are doing, you will break your fingers.

Indeed, I disposed of the couple I had when my dexterity got less than perfect — terrifying things

Good luck with getting one out of a live trap.
Of course, the best option is a 2 inch .410 cartridge, assuming you have shooting permission.
Not ideal if they are in a public space.

Haven’t tried this with mink* but with live trapped rats I used to stick an air rifle barrel into the cage which the rat would invariably bite

* and I wouldn’t, paradoxically, I’m against shooting or trapping mink for reasons .

 

[Cobra]

Haven’t tried this with mink* but with live trapped rats I used to stick an air rifle barrel into the cage which the rat would invariably bite

That's all very well assuming the mesh is wide enough to do that.
I wouldn't be convinced that would work on a mink anyway, tough little buggers.

About 30 years experience, in pest control & wildlife management, + a degree in animal behaviour taught me the best and most efficient
ways of doing things. I believe in killing things fast, where necessary, not torturing them.

and I wouldn’t, paradoxically, I’m against shooting or trapping mink for reasons .

But its OK for them to decimate fish, frogs, ducks, crayfish, eggs, lizards, mice, and just about anything else that lives on or near water ?

 

[the black fox]

What I was getting at, you are / were legally bound to kill mink on your land,
gone are the days, when it was a couple of bob, for a squirrel tail though

Helpful if you know/ knew a few mods with scooters

 

[sphexx]

But its OK for them to decimate fish, frogs, ducks, crayfish, eggs, lizards, mice, and just about anything else that lives on or near water ?

Ah, but I didn’t say I was against killing them!

 

[Dale.]

Very unwise to even attempt to shoot anything without landowners permission as you would be committing armed trespass, a criminal offence.

That's exactly the point I was making!

I believe in killing things fast, where necessary, not torturing them.

100% this,

I have no time for mink, the same for greys. I've despatched many a grey in my time and always quickly and profesionally. I would do the same for mink if I was ever in that position.

 

[Cobra]

I received an interesting press release from ZSL this morning ...


<snip>
Re-introductions from Spain and Sweden helped to boost the populations ( of Red Kites) and it is considered by some to be one of the UK’s most recognised recovery programmes.
Now, the Spanish population of red kites are plummeting. At ZSL, as part of an international collaboration, we are supporting a three-year program to reintroduce red kites into Spain. In recent weeks, 30 British red kite chicks were given expert health check ups from our wildlife vets ahead of their translocation, securing a future for this species. </snip>

Of course they are plummeting , they are all over here. ( )

 

[Gav.]

I received an interesting press release from ZSL this morning ...


<snip>
Re-introductions from Spain and Sweden helped to boost the populations ( of Red Kites) and it is considered by some to be one of the UK’s most recognised recovery programmes.
Now, the Spanish population of red kites are plummeting. At ZSL, as part of an international collaboration, we are supporting a three-year program to reintroduce red kites into Spain. In recent weeks, 30 British red kite chicks were given expert health check ups from our wildlife vets ahead of their translocation, securing a future for this species. </snip>

Of course they are plummeting , they are all over here. ( )

Phew, at least I wasn't talking rubbish

 

[nandbytes]

I received an interesting press release from ZSL this morning ...


<snip>
Re-introductions from Spain and Sweden helped to boost the populations ( of Red Kites) and it is considered by some to be one of the UK’s most recognised recovery programmes.
Now, the Spanish population of red kites are plummeting. At ZSL, as part of an international collaboration, we are supporting a three-year program to reintroduce red kites into Spain. In recent weeks, 30 British red kite chicks were given expert health check ups from our wildlife vets ahead of their translocation, securing a future for this species. </snip>

Of course they are plummeting , they are all over here. ( )

Yes yes please borrow our red kites, do they need some pigeons too?
(You know dead or alive to feed those kites)

 

[Phil V]

My take (not a wildlife expert)
Red kites were hunted to extinction by humans who wanted to protect their shooting grounds (we don’t want natural predators it spoils our Sunday morning fun).

This article is in the spectator; do I believe it’s posted in the interests of large landowners or wildlife enthusiasts?

No brainer.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Well, our LBJs are starting to return - perhaps coincidentally the red kites seem to have moved on, and I've not seen one very close for a couple of weeks. Nice to have the small birds back.

 

[Cobra]

Well, our LBJs are starting to return - perhaps coincidentally the red kites seem to have moved on, and I've not seen one very close for a couple of weeks. Nice to have the small birds back.

The LBJ's and red kites happily co-exist here. Both have been here many years.

 

[ancient_mariner]

The LBJ's and red kites happily co-exist here. Both have been here many years.

I'm by no means certain there was a connection, but when RKs moved into the *immediate* vicinity then the small birds disappeared and after they moved on then those same small birds have begun to reappear. It may be pure coincidence.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Just following this up again, I've realised we no longer have a meaningful dawn chorus. When we first moved here it was so loud that even if the weather was stifling we had to keep the bedroom windows shut or be woken from 4am in summer. A couple of years back I had a feeling it wasn't so noisy, but not until this week after I left the windows open by mistake did I realise it doesn't happen at all now.

Although the tits, a couple of doves and a robin have returned, there's no sparrows & dunnocks, finches, few woodpeckers and corvids. I also don't really see kestrels & small hawks by the roads any more, although there are still pheasants and partridges. Local small bird population has really plummeted, and it's not lack of food. Avian flu? Perhaps it doesn't affect the kites and large birds, of which there is relatively lots.