Bird section debate and poll

Should Captive bird images be posted

  • In the Bird section

    Votes: 11 12.1%

  • In the Zoo section

    Votes: 33 36.3%

  • With a prefix (or header) stating "captive" / "wild"

    Votes: 42 46.2%

  • Who cares? Its Fri I'm off down the pub

    Votes: 17 18.7%
  • Total voters
    91
markyboy.1967

markyboy.1967

Messages
8,118
Name
Mark Molloy
Edit My Images
Yes
**Mod Edit**
Guys I have added a "multi choice" poll, you can click more than one answer.
Its more for info, and will probably prove nothing though.
Chris

Ok folks im starting this thread as people are crapping other threads and getting upset and that does include me. I thought we should start a thread to have a "REASONABLE DEBATE" on whether the Bird section should be used for wild birds and not captive birds.

I will start off with my take on this which others may want to add or debate with.Im a reasonable person and very open minded so if you want give me a reason to change my outlook on the subject.

If the mods see this as being more work or has the potential for more complaints on the forum then let us know why as we only see it from our side and its good to hear both sides before making our minds up.

1.There is a dedicated section to captive animals which includes pets,zoo animals etc-so what is different with it being a captive bird, should it not be in this section as it covers a wide variety of species?

2.Many birders and wildlife photographers will only shoot just that--WILD life/WILD Birds . So why have captive birds in the section as they will seldom be described as captive.

3.Many users spend allot of time helping wildlife and birds in particular and some dedicate their lives to this.Feeding, looking after and helping different wildlife. This also includes days, weeks and months trying to get that lucky photograph so why spoil all the hard work and allow captive birds.

4.There have been several instances where captive birds have had jessies etc removed to hide the captive fact and still wont admit it when proof is shown. Some users end up without doubt getting a bad first impression of the forum due to this.

5.For me capturing that one elusive species is a wonderful thing and should be shared with like minded people in a dedicated section.


So please debate this but as i said keep it reasonable or its sure to be removed or if bad i will ask for it to be locked myself.

Look forward to others points of view especially if they differ from my own.(y)
 
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Birds
A place to share your photos of all the birds and winged animals of the world.
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As it stands it's just 'Birds', nowhere does it say that images posted must be of wild birds.
If it is to be wild birds only then that forum section will have to be changed - as it stands anyone can post any bird image there without feeling that they are 'out of step'.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Totally agree with that Gramps. As it stands wild or captive birds can be posted.

Whats your thoughts on the tag " WILD " being added in the future?
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I'm not sure, there are many images from, for example, the Barn Owl Centre and I might not look for these under the Zoo & Pets forum like I would for say a budgie ... how about a sub-section for Captive Birds?
 
There are a good number of wild bird photographers on the forum so I am sure it would be busy - I don't really understand the problem with photographing non-wild though I accept that some get really uptight about it.
Obviously if someone is misrepresenting a photo that would be unacceptable, but equally so in any other forum.
 
Hi Mark, it is a two sided coin imo for reasons that I have just noticed Gramps has put up. Yes there have been those that have purposely tried to hide the fact it is a captive bird, not much that can be done about that other than ridicule them in public :D The other thing Mark is that the way the Bird section has been described we have to make allowances for newcomers or even just those that are keen to show off their pictures and innocently just plonk it in where they think it best fits, and as you probably know putting threads in the wrong section happens quite frequently on TP anyhow. Perhaps the word "Wild" might be a solution in the section title :shrug: Although there will always be one or two that slip through imho, but as in my other reply if we had a resident Mod like we used to have then any stray threads could be just moved along without too much controversy.
 
Gramps, im glad you said you cant really see the problem as you have a differing view from me and thats what i want to hear and hoping your the same.

Ok situation--an owl image gets posted and it looks spectaticular. Lovely setting, perch ,background etc etc...I then give praise on the image based on my assumption ( rightly or wrongly )that the bird is wild and the photographer has been lucky or has worked very hard to get the image......What im saying is that im not only praising the image but also the work/luck behind the image. I then find out that the image was staged by a falconer---my thoughts change from then on in.

Situation 2-Same owl image but the photographer says he has been watching this bird for months and finally got the shot--only for us to find he is lying..

Situation 3-Same image but tog says nothing and people assume its wild and praise him again for hard work or being lucky...Others comment the same as now everyone thinks its wild. One observant tog states its not wild and it then upsets everyone..

All 3 situations have been observed on the forum hence why my thoughts are to give the wild birds section a stand alone status.It wont stop it happening but it then gives us the right to ask for the image to be removed.
 
u8myufo said:
Hi Mark, it is a two sided coin imo for reasons that I have just noticed Gramps has put up. Yes there have been those that have purposely tried to hide the fact it is a captive bird, not much that can be done about that other than ridicule them in public :D The other thing Mark is that the way the Bird section has been described we have to make allowances for newcomers or even just those that are keen to show off their pictures and innocently just plonk it in where they think it best fits, and as you probably know putting threads in the wrong section happens quite frequently on TP anyhow. Perhaps the word "Wild" might be a solution in the section title :shrug: Although there will always be one or two that slip through imho, but as in my other reply if we had a resident Mod like we used to have then any stray threads could be just moved along without too much controversy.
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Rich, thanks for joining in.. So your thoughts seem to be with the WILD tag and a resident MOD...

I take your point about newcomers hence this thread as i and others have crapped their threads and made them feel unwelcome--which i fully regret doing and apologise for.
 
As a newcomer to photography and taking pictures of birds, I have and only would post pictures of wild birds in the bird section, I don't know, it just seemed an unwritten rule to me. Any captive birds I've shot I've put in the zoo section.
 
Mark I feel that if they are not putting them in the zoo section, the post should be clearly identified as captive, cloning out jessies and attempting to mislead the origin of the bird is wrong.

Some of us spend hours locating, stalking or just sat tight waiting for the shot, which is a major part of the fun for me, and also part of the skill capturing the image.

Personally I do not comment on captive bird shots, bit like taking up fishing and buying a couple of trout from the fishmongers, then saying look what I caught.

But as Gramps points out there is nothing saying they should not be posted in there.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Rich, thanks for joining in.. So your thoughts seem to be with the WILD tag and a resident MOD...
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Well if it could be set up then it is one option, the other would be, and I cannot see why not, is that the same as the Nature Wild and free section, it is described underneath with " Stuff that nature has given us but we have not locked up, tamed or tied down " :shrug: Well apart from a Robin that is :D
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Gramps, im glad you said you cant really see the problem as you have a differing view from me and thats what i want to hear and hoping your the same.

Ok situation--an owl image gets posted and it looks spectaticular. Lovely setting, perch ,background etc etc...I then give praise on the image based on my assumption ( rightly or wrongly )that the bird is wild and the photographer has been lucky or has worked very hard to get the image......What im saying is that im not only praising the image but also the work/luck behind the image. I then find out that the image was staged by a falconer---my thoughts change from then on in.

Situation 2-Same owl image but the photographer says he has been watching this bird for months and finally got the shot--only for us to find he is lying..

Situation 3-Same image but tog says nothing and people assume its wild and praise him again for hard work or being lucky...Others comment the same as now everyone thinks its wild. One observant tog states its not wild and it then upsets everyone..

All 3 situations have been observed on the forum hence why my thoughts are to give the wild birds section a stand alone status.It wont stop it happening but it then gives us the right to ask for the image to be removed.
Click to expand...

I see where you are going Mark and I certainly prefer open & honest discussion.

Situation 1 I see no problem other than the fact that you have made an assumption which is incorrect - currently there is no requirement for the bird to be 'wild'.

Situation 2 That's dishonest and should not be tolerated in any forum ... bit like me photographing a poster in the travel agents and posting it in Landscapes :D

Situation 3 I would expect the O/P to point out the wrong assumptions.

None of these situations change my view - in any of the other forums we are presented with images with little knowledge of what preceded the shutter being pressed.
We judge the image ... understandably ... this is Talkphotography - if we were Talkstalking or Talkcamouflage then I would be more inclined to agree with you but as it is the forum is for looking at images of birds not really how they came to be taken (though the addition of such information would be useful and interesting to the viewer).
So as it stands I see no need to only post pictures of wild birds.
 
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Gramps-

Situation 1-an image is more than just whats viewed on paper/screen etc. A good image will lead the viewer into a train of thought and this leads to assumptions being made.

Situation 2-The image poster may be correct and not lying--he could be watching the bird for months but in his shed in the garden where he keeps it--remember post 1 ( assumptions ):wacky::LOL:

Situation 3-Its happened several times in the bird section. The OP just doesnt reply to his/her own thread and it ends up with loads saying how great it must have been only for the OP to sit back and take that praise as well as for the image itself.
 
milster said:
I think it's mainly because there's a zoo section and I see that as a section to cover all captive animals, be it a zoo or a rescue centre or falconry centre etc.
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Very similar to my train of thought however as pointed out the Bird section is for ANY bird at the moment.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Gramps-

Situation 1-an image is more than just whats viewed on paper/screen etc. A good image will lead the viewer into a train of thought and this leads to assumptions being made.
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I'm not sure that is a problem though, I see an image of a beautiful seashore, I see myself there and imagine the tropical sun, the girls in grass skirts etc ... but actually it was taken in Hastings!
Unless it was posted as being in Sri Lanka I don't see a problem, a good image will get us thinking and imagining and we are most likely totally wrong.

markyboy.1967 said:
Situation 2-The image poster may be correct and not lying--he could be watching the bird for months but in his shed in the garden where he keeps it--remember post 1 ( assumptions ):wacky::LOL:
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:LOL: indeed.

markyboy.1967 said:
Situation 3-Its happened several times in the bird section. The OP just doesnt reply to his/her own thread and it ends up with loads saying how great it must have been only for the OP to sit back and take that praise as well as for the image itself.
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Annoying, but to what benefit ... the O/P is only really fooling himself.
 
There is a Nature: Zoo, pets..etc forum that some birds may come under. BUT there is also a Nature: Wild and free forum that most birds can also be posted in.
I don’t see the problem, the bird forum is for what it says, birds. Be that captive or wild.
This is a photography forum where photographs are posted, admired and commented on. If you want to know how or where the picture was taken then ask and I’m sure the poster will be happy to tell.
As for deceiving other forum members and making out a captive bird photo was a wild bird photo, I don’t know why someone would do this and even if they do, calling the bird section the wild bird section isn’t going to stop them doing it.
 
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gramps said:
I'm not sure that is a problem though, I see an image of a beautiful seashore, I see myself there and imagine the tropical sun, the girls in grass skirts etc ... but actually it was taken in Hastings!
Unless it was posted as being in Sri Lanka I don't see a problem, a good image will get us thinking and imagining and we are most likely totally wrong.

I would like to see that image...:nuts:

:LOL: indeed. (y)



Annoying, but to what benefit ... the O/P is only really fooling himself.
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Agree on that one.



Would a sub section of the birds section for captive birds be busy enough to warrant having its own section...??????
 
Hi Mark,

Appreciated that you've taken the time out to start a separate thread on this. This is something that keeps rearing its head whenever a newcomer gets blasted for posting a captive bird shot in that section, so as long as it stays civil it won't be a bad thing to get it all out in the open.

As already said, the section is titled "birds" and that encompasses all birds be they wild or captive.
It does make it hugely unfair when a newcomer feels the wrath for daring to post a captive bird - and we're not going to start moving captive bird shots out of there because they do meet the definition for that section.

However, I do 'get' what you're saying in that the context will (and absolutely should) influence the critique due to the degree of skill and investment in time involved in taking the shot. Unfortunately, I just don't know what the solution is.

The separate sub-sections idea for "wild birds" / "captive birds" has been discussed many, many times before and I don't know that anything has changed significantly since last time to warrant a change in stance on this.

There does seem to be a very close-knit community on the bird forum though, with lots of regular, frequent contributors.
Is this something that you could start addressing yourselves by starting to head up your thread titles with <wild> or <captive> ?
I think there are enough core members in that sub forum that newcomers would soon catch on and start follow that naming convention.
 
I would like to see that image
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Best I can do ... and it is Hastings :D


Fishing-boat by photogramps, on Flickr


I'm sure that if there was a captive bird section it would be used ... Barn Owl Centre, Gigrin Farm, BWC etc etc (Ok probably not Gigrin :D )
 
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SarahLee said:
Is this something that you could start addressing yourselves by starting to head up your thread titles with <wild> or <captive> ?
I think there are enough core members in that sub forum that newcomers would soon catch on and start follow that naming convention.
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Seems like a good idea.
 
gramps said:
Seems like a good idea.
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The issue is see with this is that some will do it and others wont and they will fall back on the " it doesnt say anywhere that we need to state if its wild or captive"

I think its something thats doomed to fail over time and we are right back here again or with as Sarah states new users getting slated or regular forum users getting banned.
 
I like all the birds in one place regardless of whether they're wild or captive however I like to know straight away whether a particular shot is of a wild or captive bird and that would rely on people stating it in their thread. Asking for it to be stated has the potential to create a right old ding dong as people may simply forget or aren't aware that the info is required.

I think there are lot of people interested in birds that might not bother looking through the zoo section so I'm not convinced captive birds should go in there.

I suppose you could argue that wild birds could be included in 'wildlife'.

The more I think about it - my preference would be for a wild bird section and a captive bird section.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
The issue is see with this is that some will do it and others wont and they will fall back on the " it doesnt say anywhere that we need to state if its wild or captive"

I think its something thats doomed to fail over time and we are right back here again or with as Sarah states new users getting slated or regular forum users getting banned.
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Simple adjustment to the forum title explanation would do it ...

"A place to share your photos of all the birds and winged animals of the world - please state whether photographed in the wild or in captivity"
 
dinners said:
I like all the birds in one place regardless of whether they're wild or captive however I like to know straight away whether a particular shot is of a wild or captive bird and that would rely on people stating it in their thread. Asking for it to be stated has the potential to create a right old ding dong as people may simply forget or aren't aware that the info is required.

I think there are lot of people interested in birds that might not bother looking through the zoo section so I'm not convinced captive birds should go in there.

I suppose you could argue that wild birds could be included in 'wildlife'.

The more I think about it - my preference would be for a wild bird section and a captive bird section.
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Phil, loks like another one thinking that a birds sub sections would be a good idea? Why have you come to that train of thought?
 
gramps said:
Simple adjustment to the forum title explanation would do it ...

"A place to share your photos of all the birds and winged animals of the world - please state whether photographed in the wild or in captivity"
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That looks simple to me however as the mods arent liking the idea behind adding the word " wild " what makes this any better?
 
Adding 'Wild' precludes anything else, adding to the forum description allows for captive but declared as such.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
So how would they declare it? Would i be in their heading or stated in their thread? Or does it really matter?
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I really cant see why it matters?
If you feel you need to know, then ask if its a wild bird or not.
 
I would have thought within the post ... if someone doesn't, then first of the regular 'birders' asks the question. No response from O/P then no further input from those 'birders' - on response, remind politely of the need to declare.
 
It's never crossed my mind to differentiate between photos of wild or so called captive birds, I just see pictures of birds some good, some not so good but all beautiful creatures and how wild is wild, how about the friendly Chaffinches that come to your garden,how long do you have to sit and how far do you have to walk before you can consider your photograph worthy, I appreciate fieldcraft I embrace it myself but I also get plenty of opportunities from my garden, where I live I get Black grouse in the garden and short eared Owls just over the fence but given the opportunity to photograph birds of prey from two feet away at a local show I take that as well, I just like birds.
 
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gramps said:
Simple adjustment to the forum title explanation would do it ...

"A place to share your photos of all the birds and winged animals of the world - please state whether photographed in the wild or in captivity"
Click to expand...
That works for me. (y)
 
ynot said:
If you feel you need to know, then ask if its a wild bird or not.
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If you have followed any of the debates from way back you will find it is precisely that which can cause problems with the OP ;)
 
Just discovered this discussion :D

I have since first joining only a year or so ago, taken little notice of captive bird photos, but that's my taste. I've been to one country fair and took pics and afterwards thought "So what? It just sat there."

Maybe more controversially, I have found little satisfaction in looking at photos of garden birds on a staged perch, something I have voiced before. I appreciate that many members might not be as mobile and therefore I appreciate that a lot of pleasure can be gained from it, but it's not my thing ... yet.

I recently moved back to Northants and learned that it is one of the hot beds of Red Kite reintroduction and together with the amount of buzzards I have seen in the last couple of weeks, I think it's exciting to see them floating around the countryside having never seen/noticed them before. I dont have the best lens for the job, but I enjoy trying to get them in the wild and wouldn't entertain the thought of even going to Gigrin Farm (only just found out about the feeding frenzy they put on each day)

Each to their own I say. Why fight about it though?
 
Captive birds tied to a perch or restricted by Jessies should be in the zoo and captive section, though I understand the discrepancy in the section headings can cause confusion to some. I feel ghat only wild, truly wild birds, should be in the bird section.

I have no problem with baited birds, as longs it is stated, likewise with workshop birds, unless they are captive birds.

What grates more than anything, is whencaptive birds are trying to be passed as wild.

Just my thoughts.
 
fracster said:
Captive birds tied to a perch or restricted by Jessies should be in the zoo and captive section, though I understand the discrepancy in the section headings can cause confusion to some. I feel ghat only wild, truly wild birds, should be in the bird section.

I have no problem with baited birds, as longs it is stated, likewise with workshop birds, unless they are captive birds.

What grates more than anything, is whencaptive birds are trying to be passed as wild.

Just my thoughts.
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Who let you out your cage :D I think it is all down to the Mods at the moment Ade.
 
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