Bird section debate and poll

Should Captive bird images be posted

  • In the Bird section

    Votes: 11 12.1%

  • In the Zoo section

    Votes: 33 36.3%

  • With a prefix (or header) stating "captive" / "wild"

    Votes: 42 46.2%

  • Who cares? Its Fri I'm off down the pub

    Votes: 17 18.7%
  • Total voters
    91
fracster said:
Captive birds tied to a perch or restricted by Jessies should be in the zoo and captive section, though I understand the discrepancy in the section headings can cause confusion to some. I feel ghat only wild, truly wild birds, should be in the bird section.

I have no problem with baited birds, as longs it is stated, likewise with workshop birds, unless they are captive birds.

What grates more than anything, is whencaptive birds are trying to be passed as wild.

Just my thoughts.
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Cant believe that its been 24hrs already, maybe need the mods to check the timings...:LOL:
 
Thanks guys, get stuffed, the pair of you......:LOL:
 
It's all down to the honestly of the poster. No matter what rules are in place if someone wants to try and circumvent then they will do so. I can't see why they would want to but it happens.

I don't photograph captive birds and animals. A personal choice for personal reasons but I wouldn't criticise anyone for doing so nor for posting their images so long as they are identified as such.

As for whether photographing wild birds that are drawn to staged perches and, as in the example given, of red kites at Gigrin is classed as photograhing wild birds. For me if a bird has the choice of whether it lands or not, feeds or not and it hasn't come out of a cage then they are wild.

As an example. We feed birds all year round, not for photographic purposes, in fact I've never tried to photograph any of them, but just to help them out through hard weather. We have had a sparrow hawk visiting for the last two years and a few months ago I saw it on the grass eating a sparrow it had caught. Snapped a few shots off and was very thrilled to have caught it. It that a baited bird or is it wild? Acceptable or not.
 
Well, what can I say?
Lets be honest about this, the (recent) post in question, was clearly labeled "Saker"
Now, as all you "bird experts" are aware, Sakers are non native, that should give you a hint, Jesses or no jesses ;)

But I would also suggest that a "wild" or "captive" prefix to the posts should stop all this
argument.
Especially for the "borderline" species, such as Peregrine Barn owl etc.
However most display birds are hybrids rarely is a Kessie used, ( peregrine hybrids are favoured over pure breds.....)
nor a common buzzard, not a Sparrow hawk, nor a Goshawk. Granted
the Accipiters are Falconry birds, but how many people in reality have access
to these?




markyboy.1967 said:
Cant believe that its been 24hrs already, maybe need the mods to check the timings...:LOL:
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Time off for good behaviour ( besides we (well I anyway :D) missed the miserable sod :p)
 
markyboy.1967 said:
I think your right about 1 thing--he is a miserable sod...(y)
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:D

Brought over from the other thread...........

fracster said:
Alright then Chris.
Sorry fella, totally disagree with you, mark is bang on the money though.
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Disagree all you like Ade I have no problem with that (y)
But as I have already mentioned that's a "Saker" (still not convinced BTW ;))
And a non indigenous species, jesses or no jesses.
So surely you would have worked out that its captive?
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Sarah, many thanks for joining in and i really apreciate the time you took to reply.

You said this was spoken about many times before--so what was the conclusion as to WHY this isnt a good idea?

What are the onjections to NOT adding a word "Wild" in the bird section.
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Mark,

Previous debates on this have raised pretty much the same pros and cons as in this thread.

The biggest issue being that if birds was to be made for "wild" only - where should captive birds go?
They don't necessarily fit under zoos or pets - and if they did go in there we'd have birds treated in two completely different ways which would cause more confusion.
And there's just not enough volume of posts to justify yet another sub-forum for captive birds. We probably have too many sections already.

fracster said:
Captive birds tied to a perch or restricted by Jessies should be in the zoo and captive section, though I understand the discrepancy in the section headings can cause confusion to some. I feel ghat only wild, truly wild birds, should be in the bird section.
Click to expand...

The problem is though that that section is "pets, plants and trips to the zoo", so they don't really fit in there either - and even captive they are most certainly birds so under current classifications that's where they belong.

I can't help feeling that the onus should be on the poster to make it clear what the circumstances of the shot were, whether by using a prefix or disclosing it in their OP.

fracster said:
I have no problem with baited birds, as longs it is stated, likewise with workshop birds, unless they are captive birds.

What grates more than anything, is whencaptive birds are trying to be passed as wild.

Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...

Now that's a whole different issue altogether.
But if people want to pass something off as something it isn't, is a different sub-section or even a prefix really going to stop them?

markyboy.1967 said:
Yip its down to the mods but it doesnt stop us putting our point across and allowing others to express their own opinions.(y)
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Ultimately it will be an admin decision, but it is currently being discussed in the staffroom.


EDIT : And while I was typing, I see that our pink birdie mod has appeared - so I'll bow out of this now.
Besides which, it's my birthday and I'm just about to open a bottle of wine :)
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Ok back onto the subject.What are your thoughts on the Nature section getting the wild and free heading and a seterate forum. Why do it for one and not the other? Suggestions?
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Not quite sure what you mean by this? Care to expand?

Nature wild and free is just that, birds are wild and free.
If you want to post in there then that's fine
 
Cobra said:
Not quite sure what you mean by this? Care to expand?

Nature wild and free is just that, birds are wild and free.
If you want to post in there then that's fine
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Cobra, there are 2 sections for nature? Was this a split in the past or has this always been the case? What is the thinking behind 2 sections for nature?
 
Cobra said:
:D

Brought over from the other thread...........



Disagree all you like Ade I have no problem with that (y)
But as I have already mentioned that's a "Saker" (still not convinced BTW ;))
And a non indigenous species, jesses or no jesses.
So surely you would have worked out that its captive?
Click to expand...

Of course Chris .point is that people are passing captives off as wild. Plus, the cost of sakers and gyrs, how many do you see without rc or jesses?
 
SarahLee said:
They don't necessarily fit under zoos or pets - and if they did go in there we'd have birds treated in two completely different ways which would cause more confusion.
And there's just not enough volume of posts to justify yet another sub-forum for captive birds. We probably have too many sections already.
Click to expand...
Both excellent points (y)


SarahLee said:
The problem is though that that section is "pets, plants and trips to the zoo", so they don't really fit in there either - and even captive they are most certainly birds so under current classifications that's where they belong.
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'Scuse me miss :wave:
Mine arn't captive (well this little Gyr x Pere doesn't think so anyway :D)
and the pictures I take and post are either in my garden, or "working" on site,
and certainly not in a zoo ;)
So I think a section for garden birds, where I can post my static shots
would be good (y)
Oh hang on that would upset the Blue tit (et al) brigade :thinking: :D

SarahLee said:
I can't help feeling that the onus should be on the poster to make it clear what the circumstances of the shot were.
Click to expand...
Absolutely
 
I honestly cannot see where the confusion is. Nature : Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo. This is where imo display or captive Birds should be sent to, also a reminder under the bird section heading should be added. I see what Mark is getting at enquiring as to why Nature has a sub forum but in all honesty Mark, the percentage of captive or display birds posted up is not that big so does not really need a seperate one.
 
u8myufo said:
I honestly cannot see where the confusion is. Nature : Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo. This is where imo display or captive Birds should be sent to, also a reminder under the bird section heading should be added. I see what Mark is getting at enquiring as to why Nature has a sub forum but in all honesty Mark, the percentage of captive or display birds posted up is not that big so does not really need a seperate one.
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Again i agree with you Rich but what i have done all along this thread is to ask questions to get people to think as to why we do things in a certain way.
 
Birds in 'Birds' but identifying whether wild or captive ... simples!
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Cobra, there are 2 sections for nature? Was this a split in the past or has this always been the case? What is the thinking behind 2 sections for nature?
Click to expand...
Ah Ok got ya,
IIRC Many years ago it was just the one section, but as the forum grew
it was decided that pets & zoo animals should be split from "wild" animals.
Then there was an increased number of birds being posted so the "birds"
got their own bit too.
But it was never intended to be an elitist forum for kingfisher et al.
Hence the discription of "winged animals"

fracster said:
Of course Chris .point is that people are passing captives off as wild. Plus, the cost of sakers and gyrs, how many do you see without rc or jesses?
Click to expand...
Not many Ade, but my point also is that the experts can spot a non native a 50 paces.
(or at least should be able to ;))
And its the "experts" that are taking an exception.
I bet that 90% of other people don't really care if its native or not.
And just admire, (or not) the image presented before them.
 
u8myufo said:
but in all honesty Mark, the percentage of captive or display birds posted up is not that big so does not really need a seperate one.
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Exactly (y)

markyboy.1967 said:
Again i agree with you Rich but what i have done all along this thread is to ask questions to get people to think as to why we do things in a certain way.
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And a good healthy debate it is too (y)

**Poll now added**
 
Cobra said:

Not many Ade, but my point also is that the experts can spot a non native a 50 paces.
(or at least should be able to ;))
And its the "experts" that are taking an exception.
I bet that 90% of other people don't really care if its native or not.
And just admire, (or not) the image presented before them.
Click to expand...


Cobra, i think Ade did have a point even if he didnt hang around long enough. The OP of the Saker didnt disclose where it was--how were we to know he wasnt in eastern Europe ,Asia or Manchuria where the Saker was native..

Just to point out that i dont believe the OP of the Saker was trying to fool anyone but as his is a recent thread it just so happens that his was used and has brought the subject back to light.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Cobra, i think Ade did have a point even if he didnt hang around long enough. The OP of the Saker didnt disclose where it was--how were we to know he wasnt in eastern Europe ,Asia or Manchuria where the Saker was native..
Click to expand...
I take your (and Ade's) point (y)
But people tend to make the point if something is normally posted as captive,
and it was "wild caught"
Take a Lion for example, they would prefix "Serengeti" or something.


markyboy.1967 said:
Just to point out that i dont believe the OP of the Saker was trying to fool anyone but as his is a recent thread it just so happens that his was used and has brought the subject back to light.
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I don't think anyone is accusing you of "stirring things"
This subject does come up every now and again.
As I said in an earlier post, its good to have healthy debate (y)
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Thanks for the Poll Chris, i had thought about adding one but didnt like the idea of a 24hr or longer ban...:bonk:
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(y) & :LOL::LOL::LOL:

And I see one person is already "off down the pub"
Short attention span I guess ?
Edit make that 2 :D
 
markyboy.1967 said:
I can see why your not a Wildlife photographer--no attention span..:shrug:
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Tis her 21st birthday, so she has been allowed to clock off early tonight ;)
 
SarahLee said:
Oh I've spent many happy hours with bees, bugs and hoverflies.
But I'm afraid that when it comes to birds the stuffed ones that were mentioned earlier are more my sort of level :LOL:
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The thing is this isnt a new debate as i remember many years ago my dad told me about the birds and the bees and his dad told him as well so we arent alone in discussing where the birds go and where the bees go.(y)
 
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I also remember years ago about a wild gorilla being livid and he was talking to some sort of bird ...
 
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markyboy.1967 said:
Looks pretty clear going by the poll....(y)
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And the best bit about that option is, that it doesn't need a "rule change" or
staff intervention to impliment.
The OP can "just do it" (y)
An unwritten rule if you like :)
 
The saker could have been a wild bird photographed by someone where they exist in the wild,.

For me the question of captive birds and animals is against my belief that things should be held captive, but i accept others have different opinions. I did however believe that captive
belongs in Nature : Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo, all your zoo shots, your pets and captive creatures.

As to people questioning things about a post, i did not see anything like a personal attack on the OP, the bird section are among the most helpful and positive posters on TP.
 
Cuddy said:
The saker could have been a wild bird photographed by someone where they exist in the wild,.
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Post 62
Cobra said:

But people tend to make the point if something is normally posted as captive,
and it was "wild caught"
Take a Lion for example, they would prefix "Serengeti" or something.
Click to expand...
Cuddy said:
For me the question of captive birds and animals is against my belief that things should be held captive, but i accept others have different opinions.
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Thats an interesting point of view
But I think that most others would disagree, no cats, no dogs, no goldfish,
No milk no meat etc ... I guess you must be a vegetarian?
That's not a criticism BTW just an observation, and I applaude the courage of your convictions (y)
 
Rather than get the OP to state in the title as Wild/Captive, could there just be a checkbox that must be ticked when starting a new thread.

Choosing 'Wild' automatically adds that to the thread title as does "Captive". The thread doesn't get added unless one of the boxes is ticked.

Then anyone not interested in seeing captive shots knows just to ignore that thread and move onto another. Also, OP can't be slated for posting in the wrong section but may be, of course, for selecting the wrong option.
 
Ploddles said:
Rather than get the OP to state in the title as Wild/Captive, could there just be a checkbox that must be ticked when starting a new thread.

Choosing 'Wild' automatically adds that to the thread title as does "Captive". The thread doesn't get added unless one of the boxes is ticked.

Then anyone not interested in seeing captive shots knows just to ignore that thread and move onto another. Also, OP can't be slated for posting in the wrong section but may be, of course, for selecting the wrong option.
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If it's a prefix it can be made enforceable (y) so one has to be selected into to make the thread (y)
 
MWHCVT said:
I personally think that it could be made really simple
Have a "Wild Animals" and a "Captive Animals" section and that's it 3 sections into 2 tidy (y)
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That's the first sensible suggestion I've seen you make for a while Matt (y):LOL:

Things aren't always as black and white as they seem, I have seeing cows, horses in fields with head collars etc in the Nature Wild & Free section but they don't really fit in pets and zoos section either :shrug:

Same with birds, as has been pointed out some Raptors are working birds so not pets or zoos either, perhaps the descriptions have just made things far too complicated
 
MWHCVT said:
I personally think that it could be made really simple

Have a "Wild Animals" and a "Captive Animals" section and that's it 3 sections into 2 tidy (y)

FYI I vote for the last options :cautious:
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I agree with this too, as a wild bird photographer, I have to work dam hard to get some shots :LOL:


Les :D
 
Cobra said:
And the best bit about that option is, that it doesn't need a "rule change" or
staff intervention to impliment.
The OP can "just do it" (y)
An unwritten rule if you like :)
Click to expand...

I may have read the option wrongly as i assumed that the prefix would be added to the heading on the forum just under the Bird section and not by the OP themselves..May have to have a re-think..:wacky:
 
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