Bird section debate and poll

[markyboy.1967]

Ok lets ask this question--

Do we know why the mods have a differing opinion to the majority who have added their opinions to this thread? In that most want something other than what we have now and to either add the word "Wild" or to add a sub section etc...

 

[gramps]

Look into the minds of the mods? ... oh no :shake:

 

[MartynK]

Seems to me that the problem is in the forum titles. We have Nature: Wild and Free for everything that's not ' locked up, tamed or tied down'; Nature: Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo for 'All your zoo shots, your pets and captive creatures' and Birds. That puts birds into a special category of their own, unlike mammals, reptiles etc.

Personally, I'd say that falconry birds and raptors in rescue centres definitely belong under Trips to the Zoo. These are 'captive creatures' not wild birds living in their natural environment. The problem is that you're entitled to post the images under 'Birds' too. Split the 'Birds' forum into Captive and Wild? Ask posters to state if a bird is captive?

I

 

[u8myufo]

Look into the minds of the mods? ... oh no :shake:

I see only Jaffa`s

 

[Cobra]

I may have read the option wrongly as i assumed that the prefix would be added to the heading on the forum just under the Bird section and not by the OP themselves..May have to have a re-think..

The poll is not necessarily going to change "anything"
which ever way it goes, having said that it is under discussion
in the staff room

Ok lets ask this question--

Do we know why the mods have a differing opinion to the majority who have added their opinions to this thread? In that most want something other than what we have now and to either add the word "Wild" or to add a sub section etc...

There are about 20 "site staff" and only a couple have posted in here, so you can't really say that
Besides, there is no way to tell what goes on inside our heads.
(even we don't know half the time )

Look into the minds of the mods? ... oh no :shake:

Wise move

I see only Jaffa`s

What no pips :shrug:

 

[u8myufo]

That's the first sensible suggestion I've seen you make for a while Matt

Things aren't always as black and white as they seem, I have seeing cows, horses in fields with head collars etc in the Nature Wild & Free section but they don't really fit in pets and zoos section either :shrug:

Same with birds, as has been pointed out some Raptors are working birds so not pets or zoos either, perhaps the descriptions have just made things far too complicated

Sorry Ingrid I personally think with those comments you are making it complicated. Lets be honest how many people on here use working birds

Seems to me that the problem is in the forum titles. We have Nature: Wild and Free for everything that's not ' locked up, tamed or tied down'; Nature: Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo for 'All your zoo shots, your pets and captive creatures' and Birds. That puts birds into a special category of their own, unlike mammals, reptiles etc.

Personally, I'd say that falconry birds and raptors in rescue centres definitely belong under Trips to the Zoo. These are 'captive creatures' not wild birds living in their natural environment. The problem is that you're entitled to post the images under 'Birds' too. Split the 'Birds' forum into Captive and Wild? Ask posters to state if a bird is captive?

I

Any animal be it bird or anything else that is locked up, tied down or controlled by humans by whatever method, and is not allowed to live in it`s natural habitat is not " Wild " Why not just lable the bird section unerneath with " wild and free birds only " :shrug: anything else goes in the Zoo section, let it run and see if this debate pops up again.

 

[Cobra]

Seems to me that the problem is in the forum titles. We have Nature: Wild and Free for everything that's not ' locked up, tamed or tied down'; Nature: Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo for 'All your zoo shots, your pets and captive creatures' and Birds. That puts birds into a special category of their own, unlike mammals, reptiles etc.

Personally, I'd say that falconry birds and raptors in rescue centres definitely belong under Trips to the Zoo. These are 'captive creatures' not wild birds living in their natural environment. The problem is that you're entitled to post the images under 'Birds' too. Split the 'Birds' forum into Captive and Wild? Ask posters to state if a bird is captive?

I

That does seem to be the favourite among the "birders"
So I don't really see a problem, just ask the OP to Prefix their title with
captive / wild / falcon on hack / feral hawk OK maybe not the last two

 

[Cobra]

Things aren't always as black and white as they seem, I have seeing cows, horses in fields with head collars etc in the Nature Wild & Free section but they don't really fit in pets and zoos section either :shrug:

Exactly

Sorry Ingrid I personally think with those comments you are making it complicated. Lets be honest how many people on here use working birds

 

[u8myufo]

There are about 20 "site staff" and there is no way to tell what goes on inside our heads.
(even we don't know half the time )

I see the potenial for a new Political Party

 

[u8myufo]

Exactly

Exactly Chris, what I should have said is the shots you post up are very few and far between and always come with an explanation, so the Bird forum is rairly bombarded with those types of images. Chris if for arguements sake the outcome is that any BOP image posted in the Bird forum has to have a prefix, how do you enforce that?

 

[Cuddy]

Post 62


Thats an interesting point of view
But I think that most others would disagree, no cats, no dogs, no goldfish,
No milk no meat etc ... I guess you must be a vegetarian?
That's not a criticism BTW just an observation, and I applaude the courage of your convictions

No Cobra my views about captive birds are based around seeing the sad specimens ive encountered in the wild. Turkey Vulture, Red-tailed hawk, American Kestrel, several Saker and crosses trying to survive in for them unnatural surroundings. also watching a berk deliberately flying a Harris Hawk at a Golden Plover flock at a nationally important site for this species.

And an escaped Barn Owl i found starving to death when it was surrounded by food it could not take advantage of. Also a visit to a zoo where the animals spent the day pacing back and forth.

I actively try to avoid looking and commenting on captive creatures, based on the above, there may be others like me, just thought it was a point of view worth adding to the posts.

I simply belive that captive and wild should be separated as photography subjects, as has been done with the animals etc.

I would like to see separation or at the least a prefix used, though i doubt a prefix would be adhered too, so my preference would be seperate completely.

Dont know why you assummed in a vegetarian, this is about where captive photos should go, Mods move posts all the time, its just about establishing whether the birds forum needs to change or not

 

[Cobra]

No Cobra my views about captive birds are based around seeing the sad specimens ive encountered in the wild.

I understand what you are trying to say here, and some "feral" birds are more successful than others, take the breeding Harris Hawks and those damned
parrot-likes in Kent for example.

I simply belive that captive and wild should be separated as photography subjects, as has been done with the animals etc.

I have no problem with that either.
Zoo animals / nature wild and free, birds are part of the animal kingdom,
I see no reason that wild birds can't be posted in the nature wild and free
section either.
So actually there are 2 forums that Wild birds can be posted in,
the bird section and the nature wild and free

Dont know why you assummed in a vegetarian,

captive birds and animals is against my belief that things should be held captive, but i accept others have different opinions. .

It wasn't intended as a derogatory remark in the slightest.
Its just that I have heard that many times before from other vegetarian (friends)
Who believe that animals shouldn't be captive.
and of course "our food source" is captive.
Thats all I meant

 

[markyboy.1967]

[QUOTE=Cobra;
So actually there are 2 forums that Wild birds can be posted in,
the bird section and the nature wild and free



So you are saying that we are spoilt for choice then

 

[markyboy.1967]

Off now to do a wedding with some captive doves which will be let free--- now where should i post these.

 

[*gold*]

I honestly cannot see where the confusion is. Nature : Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo. This is where imo display or captive Birds should be sent to, also a reminder under the bird section heading should be added. I see what Mark is getting at enquiring as to why Nature has a sub forum but in all honesty Mark, the percentage of captive or display birds posted up is not that big so does not really need a seperate one.

Totally agree with Rich

I also agree with the point that captive birds should be identified as the effort to get wild shots can be very different to captive and carry a lot more respect IMO.

As for Sakers not being native, i didn't know and although i love birds and taking photo's of them, very often i am not going to know if a bird is native or not.
A simple (C) after a captive bird title should do the trick or in trips to the Zoo/wildlife park/bird of prey centre.
It is a bit of a storm in a teacup, well, was on the other thread but when effort has been taken to remove jesses etc it just seems like an attempt to fool people like me who wouldn't know even if it is just some great work to make a good photo brilliant, i did think the Saker was taken in the wild :bonk:
Atb
Cliff

 

[Kerioak]

It has been a while since I posted in the bird section but what is the real difference to a well caught flying bird of prey at a display to birds on bird tables or near feeders or say kingfishers at known locations with feeding poles placed so that pictures can be taken, bird sancturies where they are wild but there is a good chance of seeing them, often from hides. Hides are another thing - are they still "wild" if you are not standing in the open away from any man made or induced feeding areas ?

They all require a degree of skill especially for flying birds but many "wild" birds are still in situations that are set up to some degree so maybe the poll needs more options - captive and tied down, captive flying free, in cage, near feeding station, from hide, in sanctury/protected area, near fishing pole, totally random sighting out in woodland/moorland/estuary/beach

I can understand that some people might get upset if someone posts a brilliant picture of a bird in a captive or induced situation when they have spent hours sitting outside trying to get it but they are all photos and if someone did not enjoy the "hunt" they they would not be doing it in the first place so they are getting the enjoyment and satisfaction from that whereas someone else might not have the physical capabilities to do that but still get the enjoyment of photographing birds

 

[sturs]

It doesn't really bother me to be honest.

Yes it can be easier to photograph a captive bird sometimes but you still need the same amount of skill to make a nice photo.

BUT

There are also a lot of times where people have spent many hours and days trying to capture that one particular photo of a wild bird.

The next problem is what do you call wild and what is captive??????

Example:

1) You turn up to a workshop where Kingfishers turn up every day on a regular basis. Food is even put out for them along with perches etc. They are still wild but everything else is set up. IS THIS WILD OR CAPTIVE???

2) You turn up to a workshop where a Barn Owl is left to fly around on its own accord and you take photo's. IS THIS WILD OR CAPTIVE????

Obviously if you go to a Zoo then this is captive.

For me I like to know about of history behind the photo i.e. taken at a workshop, taken in local woods, taken at a reserve, taken at the zoo.

Captive or not it doesn't change the fact of it being a good photo or not. If you have spent hours and days trying to get the picture then why not tell us about it. If you had a nice day out to the zoo or had a great day at a workshop then again why not tell us about it.

Just my thoughts.

 

[gramps]

It doesn't really bother me to be honest.

Yes it can be easier to photograph a captive bird sometimes but you still need the same amount of skill to make a nice photo. [SNIP]

[/SNIP]
Captive or not it doesn't change the fact of it being a good photo or not. If you have spent hours and days trying to get the picture then why not tell us about it. If you had a nice day out to the zoo or had a great day at a workshop then again why not tell us about it.

Just my thoughts.

Totally agree with these thoughts.

 

[u8myufo]

It has been a while since I posted in the bird section but what is the real difference to a well caught flying bird of prey at a display to birds on bird tables or near feeders or say kingfishers at known locations with feeding poles placed so that pictures can be taken, bird sancturies where they are wild but there is a good chance of seeing them, often from hides. Hides are another thing - are they still "wild" if you are not standing in the open away from any man made or induced feeding areas ?

They all require a degree of skill especially for flying birds but many "wild" birds are still in situations that are set up to some degree so maybe the poll needs more options - captive and tied down, captive flying free, in cage, near feeding station, from hide, in sanctury/protected area, near fishing pole, totally random sighting out in woodland/moorland/estuary/beach

I can understand that some people might get upset if someone posts a brilliant picture of a bird in a captive or induced situation when they have spent hours sitting outside trying to get it but they are all photos and if someone did not enjoy the "hunt" they they would not be doing it in the first place so they are getting the enjoyment and satisfaction from that whereas someone else might not have the physical capabilities to do that but still get the enjoyment of photographing birds

There is no difference merit wise to capturing either a bird at a display or a well presented image of a Sparrow imo Christine. Unless I have misunderstood the whole thing :shrug: the problem arises when a Bop gets posted up in the bird forum, the OP gets questioned as to whether or not it is wild, as in the past some images have been portrayed to make them look like a wild bird. It seems to me that depending on the species there are those on here that are clued up enough to spot any small tale tale signs, I believe they have the right to warrant challenging the OP over it. If however in future a similar shot is posted in the Nature : Pets, Plants and Trips to the Zoo it would stand to reason to most folk that they are not in a sense wild. If any offending articles are cloned out from the shot to present it I see no problem with that, hopefuly the OP would be kind enough to point that out in the opening thread. What we must learn from all this is that there will always be people who join TP experienced in photography or not, we should not automatically assume that they know about the etiquette of this or any other genre of Photography.

 

[Deleted member 34016]

Off now to do a wedding with some captive doves which will be let free--- now where should i post these.

Posting Doves, is frowned upon by the Royal Mail & the RSPB


Les

 

[LCPete]

It doesn't really bother me to be honest.

Yes it can be easier to photograph a captive bird sometimes but you still need the same amount of skill to make a nice photo.

BUT

There are also a lot of times where people have spent many hours and days trying to capture that one particular photo of a wild bird.

The next problem is what do you call wild and what is captive??????

Example:

1) You turn up to a workshop where Kingfishers turn up every day on a regular basis. Food is even put out for them along with perches etc. They are still wild but everything else is set up. IS THIS WILD OR CAPTIVE???

2) You turn up to a workshop where a Barn Owl is left to fly around on its own accord and you take photo's. IS THIS WILD OR CAPTIVE????

Obviously if you go to a Zoo then this is captive.

For me I like to know about of history behind the photo i.e. taken at a workshop, taken in local woods, taken at a reserve, taken at the zoo.

Captive or not it doesn't change the fact of it being a good photo or not. If you have spent hours and days trying to get the picture then why not tell us about it. If you had a nice day out to the zoo or had a great day at a workshop then again why not tell us about it.

Just my thoughts.

Agree, I dont do much bird photography but think that as long as the poster is honest and states how he got the shot I dont think it really matters

 

[Cobra]

So actually there are 2 forums that Wild birds can be posted in,
the bird section and the nature wild and free

So you are saying that we are spoilt for choice then

Since you mention it it does look like doesn't it ?

They all require a degree of skill especially for flying birds but many "wild" birds are still in situations that are set up to some degree so maybe the poll needs more options - captive and tied down, captive flying free, in cage, near feeding station, from hide, in sanctury/protected area, near fishing pole, totally random sighting out in woodland/moorland/estuary/beach

All very valid points Christine

 

[gramps]

pro·cras·ti·na·tion  [proh-kras-tuh-ney-shuhn, pruh‐]
noun
the act or habit of procrastinating, or putting off or delaying, especially something requiring immediate attention

 

[u8myufo]

Since you mention it it does look like doesn't it ?


All very valid points Christine

C`mon Chris, how can they be valid points? The discussion is about where these types of images are best posted. Whilst I appreciate the points Christine raised they are yet again just splitting hairs. I could start a thread asking for all pictures that are in macro, and are of peoples pet spider be put in the appropriate section. Same as any bug that has been caught chilled in the fridge a picture taken of it. Those should have a captive section as it is not technically wild and free whilst sat motionless on a leaf and it`s Balls are as cold as a brass toilet seat on the shady side of an iceberg

Patience is a Virgin Gramps

 

[SLRUser]

I have only read this thread partially, but my thoughts are that if the bird in the photo posted is not wild then the OP should say so, unless it is obvious that it isn't. It doesn't have to be in the title, the text within the thread is fine. I know that the title is just "Birds" and not "Wild Birds", but I am sure that most people who view and post in this category expect them to be wild birds.

Likewise if the bird was not photographed in the UK and surrounding Isles, then I'd also like to know.

Someone recently posted some Barn Owl photos which looked too good to be true, they were cracking shots (unfortunately I can't find the post or remember the OP...it wasn't one of the regulars ). In the one shot, the Owl was ringed which looked like it had a leather jess attached, it looked like a captive bird which instantly turned me off...yes they were great photos, but technically not as challenging...however after looking at the OP's Flickr site it was clear that they were wild...If they were captive, I would have expected the OP to have said so, but knowing that they are wild makes me take my hat off to them.

 

[Cobra]

C`mon Chris, how can they be valid points? The discussion is about where these types of images are best posted. Whilst I appreciate the points Christine raised they are yet again just splitting hairs.

Rich, you make fair points.
Its all to do with open discussion,
And reaching a "conclusion"
I don't see that any points warrens exclusion TBH.

 

[Gremlin]

C`mon Chris, how can they be valid points? The discussion is about where these types of images are best posted. Whilst I appreciate the points Christine raised they are yet again just splitting hairs. I could start a thread asking for all pictures that are in macro, and are of peoples pet spider be put in the appropriate section. Same as any bug that has been caught chilled in the fridge a picture taken of it. Those should have a captive section as it is not technically wild and free whilst sat motionless on a leaf and it`s Balls are as cold as a brass toilet seat on the shady side of an iceberg

You could but I've yet to see any one in macro complain about things like that, they understand that macro is a close up of all things and not all pictures in there are of living objects.

 

[u8myufo]

Rich, you make fair points.
Its all to do with open discussion,
And reaching a "conclusion"
I don't see that any points warrens exclusion TBH.

And I know what you are saying Chris As you know I aint the best when it comes to putting things down. All I was trying to say, and yes it is an open discussion with all views welcome, is that from the original request of either prefixing the thread or having display or captured BOP`s placed elswhere, the more we all chip away at it and throw more if`s and but`s at it, the harder it will be to come to a final decision. If all the Mods are debating this, I assume you have all come up with a few pro`s and con`s for whichever you decide to do. So as far as being an open discussion is concerned, is there any reason why you or any other Mod involved cannot post up those pro`s and con`s for all to see? It is hardly top secret stuff is it? Polls are all well and good but it depends how many vote, as it is leaning towards prefixing threads, then why not just close it and have done with it. I will ask again as nobody has bothered to answer my earlier question. If prefixing is the outcome, how can you enforce it?

You could but I've yet to see any one in macro complain about things like that, they understand that macro is a close up of all things and not all pictures in there are of living objects.

You have a fair point Ingrid However the arguement here, is that there are a those in the bird section who understand that any Bop picture portrayed as being wild is in fact not :shrug: and therefore either the OP has to inform people of this or it has to be placed elswhere.

 

[RKC]

Personally I have no problems with all birds being posted in the bird section, although I fully understand that some people like to know how certain birds were captured.
As far as I can remember these sort of posts are not that frequent, so not sure what the fuss is about, if you think someone is trying it on then a polite few questions is more than likely to sort it.

This prefix thing could be a bit of nuisance in as much as if you have to select every time if it's enforced.

Just my thoughts

 

[Cobra]

. If all the Mods are debating this, I assume you have all come up with a few pro`s and con`s for whichever you decide to do. So as far as being an open discussion is concerned, is there any reason why you or any other Mod involved cannot post up those pro`s and con`s for all to see? It is hardly top secret stuff is it?

No big secret Rich,
And as you can imagine there are dozens of "things" being discussed
at anyone time, some are more important than others
and we do have to prioritise, so you will have to forgive us
if we seem "a bit "slow" at times.
Having said that, all the points raised here are pretty much the
same in the staff room. I think that its safe to say that there will not be
a seperate forum for captive and wild, as we have more than enough forums
as it is
It would be nice if people "self moderated" in this instance though.

I will ask again as nobody has bothered to answer my earlier question. If prefixing is the outcome, how can you enforce it?

We can't force people to post in any <correct> forum, Rich.
Or "prove" the
fact that something is "as stated".
There are hundreds of posts, being posted in the incorrect forum, and the
obvious ones that are spotted, or RTM'd are moved.
Its not a crime, as some people seem to think, to post a captive bird
in the bird sections.
I will however, give the adminnie types a gentle nudge on this one,
to see if we can bring the subject to a close.
Hope that answers your questions.

 

[Kerioak]

Another thought on this - what if for instance I spot a BOP flying and I am not at a display, workshop etc, I spend ages trying to get pictures of said bird only to see when I get home and look on computer that it is wearing jessies - is this counted as captive even though I did not know it was an owned bird at the time ?

Edit: The reason I ask is that I was watching a buzzard (I think) a while ago, too far out of reach for me to get a picture of but I have followed them up the valley before now in an unsuccessful attempt to get a decent shot

 

[u8myufo]

No big secret Rich,
And as you can imagine there are dozens of "things" being discussed
at anyone time, some are more important than others
and we do have to prioritise, so you will have to forgive us
if we seem "a bit "slow" at times.
Having said that, all the points raised here are pretty much the
same in the staff room. I think that its safe to say that there will not be
a seperate forum for captive and wild, as we have more than enough forums
as it is
It would be nice if people "self moderated" in this instance though.



We can't force people to post in any <correct> forum, Rich.
Or "prove" the
fact that something is "as stated".
There are hundreds of posts, being posted in the incorrect forum, and the
obvious ones that are spotted, or RTM'd are moved.
Its not a crime, as some people seem to think, to post a captive bird
in the bird sections.
I will however, give the adminnie types a gentle nudge on this one,
to see if we can bring the subject to a close.
Hope that answers your questions.

Fair enough points there Chris, mind you I am not sure about your reply about it will not have a seperate section I did not think anybody was asking for one, but just that those types of posts were put in the trips to the zoo section :shrug: Self explanitory, no confusion and nobody would have the need to ask if it is a wild bird or not. It is now well past Beer O`clock and I am on my third bottle, nothing really more for me to add so I await the outcome

 

[Cobra]

Another thought on this - what if for instance I spot a BOP flying and I am not at a display, workshop etc, I spend ages trying to get pictures of said bird only to see when I get home and look on computer that it is wearing jessies - is this counted as captive even though I did not know it was an owned bird at the time ?

I would say that as it was wearing jesses, then technically it gets posted in captive.
And this is where the argument would kick off, if you cloned out the
jesses, and posted it as wild, and it was "spotted"


And along the same lines, I took a picture of a moorhen recently, she was
feeding 3 chicks by the side of a pond.
Wild birds yes?

However that pond was at the side of the Cheetah enclosure at Whipsnade.
Trips to the Zoo then Eh?

 

[u8myufo]

Another thought on this - what if for instance I spot a BOP flying and I am not at a display, workshop etc, I spend ages trying to get pictures of said bird only to see when I get home and look on computer that it is wearing jessies - is this counted as captive even though I did not know it was an owned bird at the time ?

Sorry Christine, I do not want to come across as rude or negative but if you look at point #4 raised by the OP, I think you will find that this is really what it is all about, and not some hypothetical situation.

 

[Cobra]

Fair enough points there Chris, mind you I am not sure about your reply about it will not have a seperate section I did not think anybody was asking for one,

TBH Rich, it was more of a preemptive strike
I'm sure that was mentioned somewhere, but maybe it was the time
before, I can't remember now..

but just that those types of posts were put in the trips to the zoo section :shrug: Self explanitory, no confusion and nobody would have the need to ask if it is a wild bird or not.

And using the same arguement, please post your wild bird shots,
in Nature WILD & FREE, self explanatory no?
<cat / pigeons >

It is now well past Beer O`clock and I am on my third bottle, nothing really more for me to add so I await the outcome

Enjoy your have one for me

 

[Kerioak]

Sorry Christine, I do not want to come across as rude or negative but if you look at point #4 raised by the OP, I think you will find that this is really what it is all about, and not some hypothetical situation.

Whilst this is no where near as serious I have never forgotten the original DDA which was rushed though without sufficient thought being given to all the ifs, buts and permutations resulting in the unnecessary deaths of many dogs, I now have the habit of trying to look at things from as many angles as possible

 

[Matt]

Personally, I couldnt care less. I just like looking at good photos.
You're all adults, and can make up your minds what should go where. we can put a prefix in, then if you need to use it, you can do.

 

[u8myufo]

Personally, I couldnt care less. I just like looking at good photos.
You're all adults, and can make up your minds what should go where. we can put a prefix in, then if you need to use it, you can do.

Case closed then Matt :shrug:

 

[markyboy.1967]

Personally, I couldnt care less. I just like looking at good photos.
You're all adults, and can make up your minds what should go where. we can put a prefix in, then if you need to use it, you can do.

So Matty, does this mean the mods have made a decision.

 

[u8myufo]

So Matty, does this mean the mods have made a decision.

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