broadband

Zen here. They’re not cheap but very good. Knowledgable UK based staff if there’s a problem and zero throttling.

My son downloads the entire internet once a day and we have a constant 76mbps down and 19 up.
 
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tijuana taxi said:
If you ran a business would you supply ten customers at great cost or a thousand and make a profit?
BT isn't a nationalised company and need to satisfy shareholders along with paying employees and tackling a large pension deficit.

I believe the service guarantee only specifies speech not data, if that has changed I expect the data would only be at low speed.
Same in towns and cities, tightly packed terrace houses offer a far better return than an expansive estate of mini mansions.

That's privatisation for you, same goes for transport too, no profit in an empty train or bus
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Except they are constantly been given extra funding specifically to cover areas like this.
It depends if you think modern communications are now an almost indispensable service like electricity and water or some kind of sideshow.
Since practically everything like submitting VAT and banking is moving online places with borderline broadband that goes down for days at times are often extremely frustrated by lack of progress.
It's easy to make it seem trivial when where you live has 3G/4G and 10mb+
It's like when power goes off you only fully appreciate it when suddenly nothing work anymore.
 
It depends if you think modern communications are now an almost indispensable service like electricity and water or some kind of sideshow.
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No light, heating or sanitation vs internet, bit of a mismatch there, so no its not remotely like an indispensable service.
Can't submit the vat return or unable to flush the toilet, can't you see how far apart those two things are?
 
TalkTalk are bloody appalling, I don't think we go a day where it doesn't drop out at least once. It's also slow in our area. As soon as possible I'll be changing over to Virgin cable.
 
onomatopoeia said:
I have a 1000GB of download allowed per month, so I get by without too much trouble.
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Oh. I only saw 200GB Option. How much is that 1000GB one? I’d switch to them if zen aren’t any good over the long term. I’d need to check on how much I burn through though. I’ve never really kept track.
 
srichards said:
Oh. I only saw 200GB Option. How much is that 1000GB one? I’d switch to them if zen aren’t any good over the long term. I’d need to check on how much I burn through though. I’ve never really kept track.
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Top Zen package is unlimited and I guess probably subject to peer to peer restrictions. I hit about 100GB with various things (not really watching films though) and I get maximum speeds down and up (OK, I am probably near the BT box).
 
4wd said:
Rural area just get ever more left behind but they are good at making empty promises and massaging statistics to make it sound like progress is being made.
It's the same story as mobile phone cover which is still non-existent in many North Yorkshire villages - but because you can get a signal over the moor tops where no-one lives they make out it's 90% coverage or whatever is this week's target.
In reality nothing new has been installed for 20 years locally.
It's so annoying to see new investments going into 4G and 5G, and 200mb superfast when we can't send a text and have 2mb "Broadband" speeds if the wind is in the wrong direction.
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I stayed at the Lion inn for a bit earlier this year up on Blakey ridge, not a darn thing up there, then whilst parked in a car park in Kirbymoorside which ain't 5 miles away, I was using google maps and noticed it was a bit zippy, speed tested it and it was off the scale, 100mbs +...on 4G ??
Patchy I'd say....verrry patchy
 
Having worked in this industry for many years, and for one a the major providers for 10 years, here's how the broadband industry works in this country. TalkTalk, Sky, Vodafone (for current services), PlusNet and BT all use the Openreach last mile of either copper, fibre or a mixture of both (fibre to the cabinet). Openreach deliver the service to the local exchange from where it is handed over to your service provider. Depending on what the service provider has deployed at the exchange determines what type of broadband they offer. Most of the larger providers then 'backhaul' this service onto their own network deployment. It is usually at this point that contention comes into play. Imagine 20 houses in a street all taking a 50Mbps download service, that would require 1Gbps of backhaul bandwidth. That doesn't usually happen as the providers will use some (usually) very clever algorithms to calculate average usage and what they can get away with.
Other providers buy a wholesale service from one of the big guys, usually BT Wholesale, who look after the local exchange and network side for them and aggregate the traffic and deliver it to a smaller number of handover points. Depending on how they design the handover and how much they want to pay the wholesaler, they can end up with a low contention product.
So, it's usually a trade off between having enough backhaul capacity to handle peak time traffic, but not wasting money by have unused capacity. Some providers, such as TalkTalk, deliver both their business and residential traffic over the same network. Theoretically this should be efficient, as businesses peak use is during the day and residential use is during the evening and night time. Doesn't always work out that way. By the way, PlusNet is actually a BT subsidiary that we nickname "BT Sheffield".
Things outside of the providers control that can affect your broadband speeds? Distance from the exchange, poor external wiring (BT made the mistake of using aluminium cabling when copper prices hit a record high a couple of decades ago. Terrible stuff), bad cabling inside the house (don't plug your router into a long extension cable from the main BT socket), and poor or congested wireless signal inside the house. Sometimes just upgrading the router from the usually crappy unit that most ISPs supply makes a noticeable upgrade.
Finally, apologies for the long thread, both the ASA and Ofcom are going to be introducing new rules around broadband advertising and speeds. No more 'up to', the advertising will have to show the average speed available for that postcode. In addition Ofcom are proposing a minimum speed to be advertised for both download and upload (the latter for business). If you get below that minimum speed for a period of time then you will be able to cancel without penalties, get any upfront costs refunded, and move to a new provider.
 
I think they're all probably as bad as each other. You check the review sites and not one has more than 3 stars which is pretty appalling. I'm with virgin at the moment and i rubbish in my area. Never had an issue for 10 years until moving to this property. I've had the engineers out lots but still rubbish. I'm leaning towards BT at the moment.
 
Things outside of the providers control that can affect your broadband speeds? Distance from the exchange, poor external wiring (BT made the mistake of using aluminium cabling when copper prices hit a record high a couple of decades ago. Terrible stuff), bad cabling inside the house (don't plug your router into a long extension cable from the main BT socket), and poor or congested wireless signal inside the house. Sometimes just upgrading the router from the usually crappy unit that most ISPs supply makes a noticeable upgrade.
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A couple of decades ago is incorrect, it was during the 1970's, I remember when I began in 1975 learning how to terminate it.
At the time Aluminium conductors only needed to carry speech, admittedly it has proven to be unreliable in later years.

Conductor diameter is another factor as is interference from outside sources (RAID) such as electric fences, pendolino trains are one of the worst culprits.
The festive season brings its own problems with Christmas tree lights especially those of the flashing variety.

Another factor that causes certain areas to not have FTTC (Fibre To The Cabinet) is the intransigence of some residents to the siting of the additional DSLAM cabinet.
This needs to be within a set distance of the existing cabinet and requires AC power other than that used by street lighting.

I worked for nigh on forty years for BT and had a fairly significant role in the provision of ADSL services and latterly FTTC and FTTP
One other problem that may have been solved since I retired is what is known as an EO or exchange outlet method of cabling
This is a cable direct from the exchange not routed via a cabinet hence no FTTC service. Distance from the exchange is usually well within range, but fibre broadband is not (or at least wasn't) an option
Quite maddening for those affected as these direct cabled premises were often in city centres. One area I know of was around the Old Bailey area in the City of London and parts of Canary Wharf
 
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The EO problems are still an issue in Scotland. There were a couple of places I fancied moving to but it said the entire area had EO cabling an no estimate on when they'd get proper broadband.
 
srichards said:
The EO problems are still an issue in Scotland. There were a couple of places I fancied moving to but it said the entire area had EO cabling an no estimate on when they'd get proper broadband.
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Appears its not sorted yet then, thought something like a DSLAM sited in the exchange might have solved the problem.
Usually from my experiences the EO cabling rarely extended further than 1.5km which would be within range for fibre based services.
Admittedly some exchanges do have space restrictions and its not always a simple solution to find extra room.
One of my earliest tasks when ADSL began was having an extension built on an Aberdeen exchange to accommodate additional equipment

One crumb of comfort is broadband over copper in these areas should be of a decent and reliable nature due to the short distance from the exchange,
In general bigger cables are also used which should mean larger conductor diameter and usually no Alu.
Typically I would say around 10-15 mbps which is more than adequate for most services
 
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tijuana taxi said:
One crumb of comfort is broadband over copper in these areas should be of a decent and reliable nature due to the short distance from the exchange,
In general bigger cables are also used which should mean larger conductor diameter and usually no Alu.
Typically I would say around 10-15 mbps which is more than adequate for most services
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Sadly when I checked the property in question the speed was listed as 4mbit! They've changed the broadband speed checker on right move now. Away from actual average speed and onto what the fastest product is that is available. This disguises how bad the broadband is in some places.
 
tijuana taxi said:
No light, heating or sanitation vs internet, bit of a mismatch there, so no its not remotely like an indispensable service.
Can't submit the vat return or unable to flush the toilet, can't you see how far apart those two things are?
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You're right ... only one of those will (potentially) get you locked up! :)
 
tijuana taxi said:
No light, heating or sanitation vs internet, bit of a mismatch there, so no its not remotely like an indispensable service.
Can't submit the vat return or unable to flush the toilet, can't you see how far apart those two things are?
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Not really if you're trying to run a business you simply can't manage without reliable internet these days.
It's also a complete pain when there is no mobile cover - so some days you have to hang about near home waiting for a call, and have no means to call for help if working alone and suffer some incapacitating accident.
Two friends have had exactly this happen recently, I will spare you the gory details.
It's unbelievable that we can have no service at all in well populated parts of the UK, yet a lot of remote parts of the world now have decent 3G
 
4wd said:
Not really if you're trying to run a business you simply can't manage without reliable internet these days.
It's also a complete pain when there is no mobile cover - so some days you have to hang about near home waiting for a call, and have no means to call for help if working alone and suffer some incapacitating accident.
Two friends have had exactly this happen recently, I will spare you the gory details.
It's unbelievable that we can have no service at all in well populated parts of the UK, yet a lot of remote parts of the world now have decent 3G
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Sorry don't think we will ever agree on this matter, we did cope before mobile telephony and accidents happened then.
Broadband isn't anywhere near an essential service, would you really choose it over those already mentioned.

In my professional capacity I often dealt with people who moved into the back of beyond then complained bitterly about the internet coverage.
There was a reason they bought a barn for next to nothing for their start up and tech parks were considerably dearer.
 
tijuana taxi said:
No light, heating or sanitation vs internet, bit of a mismatch there, so no its not remotely like an indispensable service.
Can't submit the vat return or unable to flush the toilet, can't you see how far apart those two things are?
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I don’t entirely agree with you. Depending on the situation light, heating or sanitation have other temporary solutions and I suppose if your internet connection is broken you could drive somewhere and use 4g on your phone. VAT returns might not be much of a problem but if you can’t receive bills or pay them it could be disastrous for your business and you could also suffer loss of income if working from home and so on. I do think broadband is, or is becoming, an essential service but in any case good broadband to country areas could solve other problems with housing, transport and work.
 
sphexx said:
I don’t entirely agree with you. Depending on the situation light, heating or sanitation have other temporary solutions and I suppose if your internet connection is broken you could drive somewhere and use 4g on your phone. VAT returns might not be much of a problem but if you can’t receive bills or pay them it could be disastrous for your business and you could also suffer loss of income if working from home and so on. I do think broadband is, or is becoming, an essential service but in any case good broadband to country areas could solve other problems with housing, transport and work.
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You can pay and receive bills in other ways, royal mail delivers the length and breadth of our shores
No I totally disagree about the internet being an essential service, we obviously have very different priorities
 
I was lucky 12 months ago when Virgin Media was installed on my street - a salesman offered their Full House TV (inc BT Sport) and 200mb broadband for £30pm for 12 months - it's been brilliant but the price goes up to £75pm and the best they'll renegotiate is £65pm. Reluctantly switching to BT Infinity with Max TV for £45pm on yesterday's 'Cyber Monday' deal - hope it's acceptable until the contract ends then will probably be able to rejoin Virgin cheaply
 
tijuana taxi said:
Sorry don't think we will ever agree on this matter, we did cope before mobile telephony and accidents happened then.
Broadband isn't anywhere near an essential service, would you really choose it over those already mentioned.

In my professional capacity I often dealt with people who moved into the back of beyond then complained bitterly about the internet coverage.
There was a reason they bought a barn for next to nothing for their start up and tech parks were considerably dearer.
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Unacceptable urban-centric policy.
I don't consider Rosedale Farndale and Westerdale locally to be 'the back of beyond'.
These are vibrant communities with several hundred residents and a large influx of holiday makers year round.
The solution is probably put a big dome over the city centres and move everyone in there.
Let loose bears and wolves in 'the back of beyond' to clear out any stragglers
 
4wd said:
Unacceptable urban-centric policy.
I don't consider Rosedale Farndale and Westerdale locally to be 'the back of beyond'.
These are vibrant communities with several hundred residents and a large influx of holiday makers year round.
The solution is probably put a big dome over the city centres and move everyone in there.
Let loose bears and wolves in 'the back of beyond' to clear out any stragglers
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Bit extreme, but ok, nice to see such a rational response, how about self funding?
One community I liased with in Oxfordshire had a very successful local broadband initiative.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/community-led-broadband-schemes/guidance

Get those several hundred residents signed up before the voracious mammals get them.
A scene from An American Werewolf In London springs to mind, have you got a local pub?
 
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tijuana taxi said:
You can pay and receive bills in other ways, royal mail delivers the length and breadth of our shores
No I totally disagree about the internet being an essential service, we obviously have very different priorities
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Ah well, there’s the problem since you work in the industry it explains a lot :(
 
sphexx said:
Ah well, there’s the problem since you work in the industry it explains a lot :(
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Explains nothing, I retired four years ago and don't give a monkeys, but its always nice to hear both sides of the debate.
 
tijuana taxi said:
You can pay and receive bills in other ways, royal mail delivers the length and breadth of our shores
No I totally disagree about the internet being an essential service, we obviously have very different priorities
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Perhaps in the past that was acceptable solution... but as a business these days good internet IS (effectively) essential. If your customer can’t contact you they will go elsewhere.
 
As a business, if your internet is essential there are EFM, LL, FTTPoD and PTP/PTMP solutions around.

A previous client had 1Mbps broadband at a hotel and refused EFM/LL services, so we setup a point-to-point link with a neighbouring town and they now get around 200Mbps over the 9 mile link.

It's usually a case of it being financially viable, however EFM can be had for around £250 a month, damn good I'd say
 
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