Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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Many of those are 1990's Prius level hybrid though....... energy still comes from burning fossil fuel and generating CO2 at the tailpipe in the city.

We need more pug-in hybrid at very least, to have zero emissions for short journey. Remove the unregulated pollution of cold engines during short journey in cities.
 
Let us assume (and I do not think this will ever be a reality), that in twenty years time, the 31.7 million cars on the road in the UK (2016 estimate) are replaced by electric vehicles.
Where is the power going to come from to run all of those vehicles?
 
Mr Bump said:
Diesel engines are already more expensive to develop than gasoline units, given their turbos and complex injection systems. After-treatment systems make them even pricier.
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Diesel engined cars have predominantly always been more expensive. In the 90's there could be anything up to £1k extra for a diesel variant although some of that could be attributed to different gearbox etc.
Injection systems are not much more complex than modern petrol engines in fact some petrol engines have two sets of injectors which would make them more complex than diesel. More and more modern petrol engines have turbos as it means more power from a smaller displacement meaning better economy and reduced emissions. Also petrol engines are now having GPF's fitted so there is very little or no price difference between petrol and diesel cars now.
 
Mr Bump said:
Also the top 10 Hybrid SUVs

  1. 1. Volvo XC90 T8 Twin Engine
  2. 2. Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid
  3. 3. BMW X5 xDrive 40e
  4. 4. Audi Q7 e-tron
  5. 5. MINI Countryman S E
  6. 6. Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV
  7. 7. Lexus RX 450h
  8. 8. Kia Niro
  9. 9. Mercedes-Benz GLE 500e
  10. 10. Lexus NX 300h
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Not fully electric though which the new Jag will be.
I thought you said SUV's were reader than a dodo, evidence by that list suggests not.
Year to date, there are 2 SUV's in the UK's top 10 selling cars, one of them taking 3rd spot, in August there are 3 SUV's in the top 10 which would infer they are far from dead as a dodo.
I will say it again, do a bit of simple research before making your silly comments. All you are doing is showing your ignorance and making yourself look an even bigger fool.
 
nilagin said:
Diesel engined cars have predominantly always been more expensive. In the 90's there could be anything up to £1k extra for a diesel variant although some of that could be attributed to different gearbox etc.
Injection systems are not much more complex than modern petrol engines in fact some petrol engines have two sets of injectors which would make them more complex than diesel. More and more modern petrol engines have turbos as it means more power from a smaller displacement meaning better economy and reduced emissions. Also petrol engines are now having GPF's fitted so there is very little or no price difference between petrol and diesel cars now.
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Ha totally typical of you Ostrich burying your head in the sand and only quoting the bit in my post you had issue with not the main bit why the USA doesn't have diesel engines so I have put it again for you to read

Even our EU 6 standards, due in 2015, do not quite match the States’ strict limits on smog- and acid rain-causing emissions.

Relative to a gasoline-burning engine, it is more difficult to control NOx in a diesel, which is why, to meet those comparatively stricter emissions limits, diesels in the US are required to use expensive, onboard after-treatment systems, which decrease the amount of particulate matter that leaves the tailpipe.
 
nilagin said:
Not fully electric though which the new Jag will be.
I thought you said SUV's were reader than a dodo, evidence by that list suggests not.
Year to date, there are 2 SUV's in the UK's top 10 selling cars, one of them taking 3rd spot, in August there are 3 SUV's in the top 10 which would infer they are far from dead as a dodo.
I will say it again, do a bit of simple research before making your silly comments. All you are doing is showing your ignorance and making yourself look an even bigger fool.
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Oh so JAG making a rich mans electric toy 10 years after other more technically savvy companies were doing it makes it ok?

JAG are going down and the mismanagement of the company and its rubbish forward thinking will be to blame.
At least Ford abandoned the UK years ago.
 
Mr Bump said:
Ha totally typical of you Ostrich burying your head in the sand and only quoting the bit in my post you had issue with not the main bit why the USA doesn't have diesel engines so I have put it again for you to read

Even our EU 6 standards, due in 2015, do not quite match the States’ strict limits on smog- and acid rain-causing emissions.

Relative to a gasoline-burning engine, it is more difficult to control NOx in a diesel, which is why, to meet those comparatively stricter emissions limits, diesels in the US are required to use expensive, onboard after-treatment systems, which decrease the amount of particulate matter that leaves the tailpipe.
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But the USA does have diesel engines, did you miss the post I made earlier where I said Ford produce diesel engines in the UK for the F150 pick up truck and a 6.5 litre v8 diesel in America for their larger F series pick up trucks. If they didn't sell them in enough numbers they wouldn't bother making them.

This "little" diesel powered pick up truck sitting next to a Range Rover sells quite well in America.
https://goo.gl/images/8bLbxj
 
Mr Bump said:
Oh so JAG making a rich mans electric toy 10 years after other more technically savvy companies were doing it makes it ok?

JAG are going down and the mismanagement of the company and its rubbish forward thinking will be to blame.
At least Ford abandoned the UK years ago.
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There aren't any tech savvy car manufacturers that were making electric SUV's 10 years ago, there weren't even that many hybrids.
The reason most manufacturers haven't bothered building them before is because there has been so little interest before and not worth the investment. It is much easier and cheaper to let others start and then come in later when a lot of things like range etc have been developed and improved.
Ford haven't abandoned the UK, they are still here, they are still paying my wages 39yrs on, just in our testing facility there are 4500 people alone, plus the manufacturing plants.
 
andy700 said:
Where is the power going to come from to run all of those vehicles?
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And lets not forget the governments latest brain child of adding yet more tax to fuel, to fund the NHS to the tune of £800m a year

Without going to far off topic, And as an aside, the anti smoking campaign,
  • In 2015, of all adults in Great Britain who had previously smoked 56.7% had quit – the highest proportion of quitters since 1974.
On a typical pack of 20 cigarettes the total tax burden of £6.98
Smokers used to pay far more into the treasury than they used to take out via the NHS.

So smoking is on a rapid decline and so is the tax collected, the same will happen when ( well if, really) Derv and Spirit are no more ...
Of course the whole tax burden then relies on the EV's and *you* still think it will be free, or virtually free?
Think again!


Back on topic, @nilagin what ever happened to the gas powered car fad of a few years ago I wonder?
 
nilagin said:
:)
You mean lpg? I don't know, I haven't heard anything of it for a few years, nor people running their diesels on used cooking oil.
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LPG seems to be quite popular in parts of Europe but for whatever reason not so much here and as for the cooking oil common rail and direct injection put a stop to that ( i thought you would know about that )
 
cosmicma said:
as for the cooking oil common rail and direct injection put a stop to that ( i thought you would know about that )
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There are still a few older diesels knocking (pun not intended) around that could run on it. I had a couple of workmates who were "refining" their own cooking oil to run in their cars only 5yrs ago, it wouldn't surprise me if one of them still was.
 
I hate diesel. Every morning when I leave the house to take my son to school you can smell its stench in the air. Vauxhall seem to be particular bad, especially those people carrier things which were all going on fire not so long ago. Really hate it when people driving around the school accelerate hard, not just because of the danger but you can see the crap bellowing out from the tailpipe.

I went for a n/a petrol and whilst it may lack punch and is a few mpg worse the engine is almost silent and very refined, it suits the car. It's still got some decent poke when you hit 4k but it's not really that kind of car, I'll probably trade it in a few years for the next generation which has a turbocharged petrol. I was tempted with a 6.4 Hemi SUV but where the hell am I going to use it on our roads? It's just throwing money away to the Government and they get more than enough as far as I'm concerned.
 
I've had a long hard think following my trip to Cornwall and back this weekend in my 2Litre Focus Diesel. I'll be getting another one if this one dies, either that or a 185 bhp petrol version.
Stopped twice for a pit stop (10minute tea and wee) on the way down as it took so long to get there due to morons smashing into each other, years ago they would have been fatal accidents, so Darwinism would have worked and someone might have got an organ they desperately needed, now though due to cars being so safe the morons survived, caused massive hold-ups and someone dies because they cant get an organ they need.

Anyway that's all by the way, when we stopped for the first time there was one car on charge in a bay for 3. Second time just off the motorway but still flagged as a motorway service stop they didnt have any charge points at all. Glad I wasnt in an EV, 350 miles so at least 3 charges assuming I had a fully charged car to start with on the way back (which I wouldnt have because where I stayed they had no charging facilities, unless draping a 13amp cable out of the window of the mobile home counts, which given it was raining and the owner of the site probably wouldnt have been too happy about given it was raining and no doubt the rain would have got into their brand new vans and ruined them.

So having had a long hard think I've come to the conclusion fossil fuel is going to be my "fluid" for a good while yet, given it returned over 50mpg fully loaded with "stuff" ( we dont do travelling light) up hill and down dale, across motorways and country lanes (sometimes at "just" over the speed limit on the motorway - to try and claw back some time because of the crashes).
To compare with EV I started off with a full tank, refilled once when it was convenient to me after we had arrived and at the cheapest petrol station, got home with more than 50% fuel remaining, so best part of 900 miles with one mid-holiday refuel and collected the cats from the cattery which I wouldnt have been able to do in an EV because I would have been stuck somewhere getting a charge and then held up on the M25
 
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nilagin said:
You mean lpg?
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Ok so I missed out the Liquefied petroleum bit :p


MatBin said:
years ago they would have been fatal accidents,
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I don't know if you are old enough to remember, when Volvo introduced and and made a huge thing about it, some years ago,
the amount of Volvo's that would pull out of a side turning, regardless, all because they had a "SiPs" sticker :D
(Side Impact Protection System) google says 1991, but I'm damned sure it was a lot earlier than that. :thinking:
 
MatBin said:
I've had a long hard think following my trip to Cornwall and back this weekend in my 2Litre Focus Diesel. I'll be getting another one if this one dies, either that or a 185 bhp petrol version.
Stopped twice for a pit stop (10minute tea and wee) on the way down as it took so long to get there due to morons smashing into each other, years ago they would have been fatal accidents, so Darwinism would have worked and someone might have got an organ they desperately needed, now though due to cars being so safe the morons survived, caused massive hold-ups and someone dies because they cant get an organ they need.

Anyway that's all by the way, when we stopped for the first time there was one car on charge in a bay for 3. Second time just off the motorway but still flagged as a motorway service stop they didnt have any charge points at all. Glad I wasnt in an EV, 350 miles so at least 3 charges assuming I had a fully charged car to start with on the way back (which I wouldnt have because where I stayed they had no charging facilities, unless draping a 13amp cable out of the window of the mobile home counts, which given it was raining and the owner of the site probably wouldnt have been too happy about given it was raining and no doubt the rain would have got into their brand new vans and ruined them.

So having had a long hard think I've come to the conclusion fossil fuel is going to be my "fluid" for a good while yet, given it returned over 50mpg fully loaded with "stuff" ( we dont do travelling light) up hill and down dale, across motorways and country lanes (sometimes at "just" over the speed limit on the motorway - to try and claw back some time because of the crashes).
To compare with EV I started off with a full tank, refilled once when it was convenient to me after we had arrived and at the cheapest petrol station, got home with more than 50% fuel remaining, so best part of 900 miles with one mid-holiday refuel and collected the cats from the cattery which I wouldnt have been able to do in an EV because I would have been stuck somewhere getting a charge and then held up on the M25
Click to expand...
So how often do you do your 350 miles trip? How often do you drive more than 100 miles in one day? Might be cheaper to rent an ICE car for your long trip.

All I know is that I'll never be buying another fossil car ever again. Not only I've never had to consider recharging the EV on my daily use, because everyday I begin with a full charge. On my EV, I've been getting 2.5p/mile, compared to 10p/mile of fuel in my 55mpg diesel. That 10p is not including engine oil, timing belt and gearbox oil costs (£75 every 10k, £500 every 5 years, £180 every 40k => 20p/mile of ICE maintenance costs)

Similar to smart phones vs feature phones. How often do you actually need a phone that lasts a week? I've gladly adopted smart phones (the original iPhone) over 10 years ago, I recall having the similar conversations........
 
And those HUGE bumpers!!
Cobra said:
Ok so I missed out the Liquefied petroleum bit :p



I don't know if you are old enough to remember, when Volvo introduced and and made a huge thing about it, some years ago,
the amount of Volvo's that would pull out of a side turning, regardless, all because they had a "SiPs" sticker :D
(Side Impact Protection System) google says 1991, but I'm damned sure it was a lot earlier than that. :thinking:
Click to expand...
And those HUGE bumpers, bloody death traps to anyone else, driven by myopic dont give a damn old farts
 
wuyanxu said:
So how often do you do your 350 miles trip? How often do you drive more than 100 miles in one day? Might be cheaper to rent an ICE car for your long trip.

All I know is that I'll never be buying another fossil car ever again. Not only I've never had to consider recharging the EV on my daily use, because everyday I begin with a full charge. On my EV, I've been getting 2.5p/mile, compared to 10p/mile of fuel in my 55mpg diesel. That 10p is not including engine oil, timing belt and gearbox oil costs (£75 every 10k, £500 every 5 years, £180 every 40k => 20p/mile of ICE maintenance costs)

Similar to smart phones vs feature phones. How often do you actually need a phone that lasts a week? I've gladly adopted smart phones (the original iPhone) over 10 years ago, I recall having the similar conversations........
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If you want to define your motoring in purely financial terms then I've never done the figures but if we look at motoring as something more, say convenience (i.e. not having to sort out a rental car etc) then I want to own a vehicle that satisfies my needs be they one day a year or 200 days a year, I could do without the hassle.
I'm glad you are enjoying EV ownership, I know for me at present it's a non starter and as pointless as it is for me to tell you to get rid of your EV so it is for you to try and convince me that ICE arent for me (for the moment at least).
In the same way, I didnt swap to digital cameras until they offered more than film but I wouldnt swap back as a daily tool to film ever again.
 
MatBin said:
I've had a long hard think following my trip to Cornwall and back this weekend in my 2Litre Focus Diesel. I'll be getting another one if this one dies, either that or a 185 bhp petrol version.
Stopped twice for a pit stop (10minute tea and wee) on the way down as it took so long to get there due to morons smashing into each other, years ago they would have been fatal accidents, so Darwinism would have worked and someone might have got an organ they desperately needed, now though due to cars being so safe the morons survived, caused massive hold-ups and someone dies because they cant get an organ they need.

Anyway that's all by the way, when we stopped for the first time there was one car on charge in a bay for 3. Second time just off the motorway but still flagged as a motorway service stop they didnt have any charge points at all. Glad I wasnt in an EV, 350 miles so at least 3 charges assuming I had a fully charged car to start with on the way back (which I wouldnt have because where I stayed they had no charging facilities, unless draping a 13amp cable out of the window of the mobile home counts, which given it was raining and the owner of the site probably wouldnt have been too happy about given it was raining and no doubt the rain would have got into their brand new vans and ruined them.

So having had a long hard think I've come to the conclusion fossil fuel is going to be my "fluid" for a good while yet, given it returned over 50mpg fully loaded with "stuff" ( we dont do travelling light) up hill and down dale, across motorways and country lanes (sometimes at "just" over the speed limit on the motorway - to try and claw back some time because of the crashes).
To compare with EV I started off with a full tank, refilled once when it was convenient to me after we had arrived and at the cheapest petrol station, got home with more than 50% fuel remaining, so best part of 900 miles with one mid-holiday refuel and collected the cats from the cattery which I wouldnt have been able to do in an EV because I would have been stuck somewhere getting a charge and then held up on the M25
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We had a thoroughly relaxed time on our recent two week trip to France and Germany. I had already made the decision to take the Alfa GT, because the boot is a decent size and it has aircon which our old Skoda Octavia lacks. If I am honest, I also wanted to see how the Alfa would perform on the fuel front at highish speeds. Like the Skoda the Alfa is a 1.9 diesel, is 10 years old, so 3 years younger than the Skoda. The trip to Burgundy was around 380 miles, mostly completed around 85 - 90MPH which was really comfortable, and according to the computer (I will do a more accurate calculation soon) the average MPG was 47.8 which given the speed and the age of the car impressed me, particularly as we were taking off like a scalded cat from the peage booths:D
On the German motorway near Freiburg I was hitting 120 at times when it was quiet and the car was rock steady and the MPG dropped to 47.2. I completed just over 2000 miles in the two weeks in absolute comfort (well, when the road surface was good - most of the time), and I just do not think it would have been possible in an electric car.
 
MatBin said:
I'm glad you are enjoying EV ownership, I know for me at present it's a non starter and as pointless as it is for me to tell you to get rid of your EV so it is for you to try and convince me that ICE arent for me (for the moment at least).
Click to expand...

I'm just pointing out the hidden costs of ICE maintenance I recently noticed, using your post as a springboard. Your reasons are entirely valid, and it's the same reason I still have an ICE car.

For my Skoda Octavia 2.0 diesel DSG, returning around 55mpg, less in winter, more in summer: 10p/mile in diesel refuelling. PLUS engine oil change £75 every 10k, timing belt £500 every 5 years, gearbox oil £180 every 40k => 20p/mile. So before any other parts of the car is concerned, or possibility of any faults, that's 30p/mile to drive the car.

In comparison, 2.5p per mile on my inefficient Nissan Leaf. My lifetime efficiency is 3.8miles/kWh. Hyundai Ioniq or Tesla Model 3 can get close to 4.5 miles/kWh, meaning less than 2p/mile. None of the above maintenance for EV powertrain. Only a coolant change required every 5 years, which is similar on ICE. Rest are suspension, brake and bodywork checks, which are also needed on ICE car.

Financial savings was the original reason I went EV (wanted rock solid local automatic, Toyota hybrid has proven gearbox so either Yaris/Auris hybrid or Leaf EV, both cost the same). We needed 2 cars in the household, secondary local EV makes perfect sense. But we both ended up loving the EV driving characteristics and now loath the noisy, hesitant family ICE car. We will never buy another ICE car again, the Skoda will serve us for next 3+ years until a suitable EV comes along.
 
wuyanxu said:
So how often do you do your 350 miles trip? How often do you drive more than 100 miles in one day? Might be cheaper to rent an ICE car for your long trip.

All I know is that I'll never be buying another fossil car ever again. Not only I've never had to consider recharging the EV on my daily use, because everyday I begin with a full charge. On my EV, I've been getting 2.5p/mile, compared to 10p/mile of fuel in my 55mpg diesel. That 10p is not including engine oil, timing belt and gearbox oil costs (£75 every 10k, £500 every 5 years, £180 every 40k => 20p/mile of ICE maintenance costs)

Similar to smart phones vs feature phones. How often do you actually need a phone that lasts a week? I've gladly adopted smart phones (the original iPhone) over 10 years ago, I recall having the similar conversations........
Click to expand...

Every two weeks for me - 360 mile round trip, nowhere to charge an electric car at the other end. An EV would make sense for my current daily 60 mile commute but I cannot guarantee being at this client for much longer

my phone charges in my car
 
EV's make total sense to those that fit the profile of where they are suited, small low mileage commutes, driveway, external power, driving miss daisy etc. Obviously we are not talking of the expensive end of the market, bmw i8, Tesla etc with the bigger range
 
I was chatting to a mate on holiday and as they tend to between blokes, the chat turned to cars. Among the questions was "Which is your best car?" There's no single answer to that! For trips down to town and up to a 60 mile round trip, the Leaf wins - as long as we don't need to carry anything particularly long. For longer trips (and/or loads), the XF wins while for fun (well, as much as is available on the public highway these days!) it's the MX-5, although I'd take a bike if I was going out alone and not expecting a monsoon!
 
wuyanxu said:
I'm just pointing out the hidden costs of ICE maintenance I recently noticed, using your post as a springboard. Your reasons are entirely valid, and it's the same reason I still have an ICE car.

In comparison, 2.5p per mile on my inefficient Nissan Leaf. My lifetime efficiency is 3.8miles/kWh. Hyundai Ioniq or Tesla Model 3 can get close to 4.5 miles/kWh, meaning less than 2p/mile. None of the above maintenance for EV powertrain. Only a coolant change required every 5 years, which is similar on ICE. Rest are suspension, brake and bodywork checks, which are also needed on ICE car.

Financial savings was the original reason I went EV (wanted rock solid local automatic, Toyota hybrid has proven gearbox so either Yaris/Auris hybrid or Leaf EV, both cost the same). We needed 2 cars in the household, secondary local EV makes perfect sense. But we both ended up loving the EV driving characteristics and now loath the noisy, hesitant family ICE car.
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You keep quoting costs of EV against ICE, I and I suspect quite a few people actually dont care about the costs, environmental (oh the shame of it) or financial, in the same way people smoke or drink or gamble or buy camera gear or whatever, I will pay whatever it costs to drive my diesel because I love the way it drives, hesitancy isnt one of its characteristics, it pulls from anywhere in any gear (just like my bike) because it has so much torque everywhere in its rev range. It isnt ridiculously expensive to run, if it was I probably would get rid of it and there are no "hidden" costs (environmental or financial) because I pay for its running costs, so if it needs parts I pay for them, how can they be hidden.

You have made a decision for you but please dont bang on about how everyone should make the same decision, one size doesnt fit all and until they come up with a comparable EV there isnt going to be the rush to EV that you want.
As an aside one of those EV bast....s nearly ran me over it was so damn quiet!!! :) Darwinism again maybe :)
 
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MatBin said:
Darwinism again maybe :)
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Yup! :p:p:p


Nearly had a few phombies who rely on their ears rather than bothering to use their eyes... Of course, blocking their ears with (usually white...) ear buds doesn't help improve their chances of survival either. Mind you, I've had almost as many in my Diesel as well as I have in the Leaf.
 
MatBin said:
I suspect quite a few people actually don't care about the costs, environmental (oh the shame of it) or financial,
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I drive a V6 3.2 petrol and get less than 30 MPH, that's a fun vehicle. For week-ends and fast trips somewhere or other.
I drive a 1.6 diesel Citroen van for work and get about 50 mpg out of that, at and about the appropriate speed limits, and that is surprisingly quick too !
1) I don't care about fuel costs on that, its a company van and I have a fuel card.
2 My car as already stated is a fun car insurance is cheap ( less than £200) the road tax is a lot more.
But as you said, I don't care. Its for fun (y)
 
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Cobra said:
I drive a V6 3.2 petrol and get less than 30 MPH, that's a fun vehicle.
2 My car as already stated is a fun car insurance is cheap ( less than £200) the road tax is a lot more.
But as you said, I don't care. Its for fun (y)
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That's cos it only goes at less than 30mph, needs a service and some new plugs I reckon :)
 
The Kia Niro EV is a 300 mile car. The nowhere to charge at a destination will become less and less of a problem over time as well.
 
srichards said:
The Kia Niro EV is a 300 mile car. The nowhere to charge at a destination will become less and less of a problem over time as well.
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I make several calls, a week, all over Norfolk, None of the garages that I have dieseled up in, nor any of my customers premises have charging points.
I average about 250 miles a day, I certainly wouldn't risk an EV, I may well get sent / diverted somewhere else other than my fairly regular routes.
 
Cobra said:
I don't know if you are old enough to remember, when Volvo introduced and and made a huge thing about it, some years ago,
the amount of Volvo's that would pull out of a side turning, regardless, all because they had a "SiPs" sticker :D
(Side Impact Protection System) google says 1991, but I'm damned sure it was a lot earlier than that. :thinking:
Click to expand...

Me too, "planet ovlov" anyone?
 
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