Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[broc]

Before everyone gets carried away with the EV hype, don't forget there is a global problem with the availability of the rare earth elements as well as cobalt, lithium, zinc & copper needed to make all of the electric motors & batteries that will be required.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ll-require-twice-the-world-s-supply-of-cobalt

Some of these minerals are mined by children in places like the Democratic Republic of Congo

 

[wyx087]

But the example was to hire out your home charger to someone else, whilst you aren't using it. That is a long time to lose the use of your driveway. I am intrigued to know where these car owners are going to be all day whilst their car occupies your drive too.

I agree that idea is a bit... out there. But if people are happy to make money on the side by doing park-on-my-drive, why would this be any different?

My 2 car driveway is unfortunately a 2 cars end-to-end driveway, not a side-by-side driveway. If I had side-by-side driveway, where anyone parking here would not affect me, I would happy to participate in similar activity, including making my 7kW home charger available.

By start up car manufacturer you are referring to Tesla, they were founded in 2003, first went into production in 2008, but never had any public chargers of their own until 2012, they relied on what was already in place.

The Tesla Roadster in 2008 was not compatible with their supercharger network.
The Model S was introduced in June 2012 promised supercharging, "by mid-July 2013, 15 stations were open across the United States" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger#North_America)
The Nissan Leaf was introduced in UK in March 2011 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Markets_and_sales), "In July 2011 Ecotricity launched a free vehicle charging network sited around the country at 14 of the Welcome Break Motorway service" areas" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotricity#Vehicle_recharging), part funded by Nissan, later Renault.

VW e-Golf, and Hyundai/Kia EV's had been for sale for years now, but there isn't any publicly-aware en-route quick chargers funded by them....... Until very recently.

 

[gman]

Before everyone gets carried away with the EV hype, don't forget there is a global problem with the availability of the rare earth elements as well as cobalt, lithium, zinc & copper needed to make all of the electric motors & batteries that will be required.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ll-require-twice-the-world-s-supply-of-cobalt

Some of these minerals are mined by children in places like the Democratic Republic of Congo

Would this also leave us open to being at the mercy of such countries? Like China is threatening to do with America over the tech war?

 

[wyx087]

Before everyone gets carried away with the EV hype, don't forget there is a global problem with the availability of the rare earth elements as well as cobalt, lithium, zinc & copper needed to make all of the electric motors & batteries that will be required.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ll-require-twice-the-world-s-supply-of-cobalt

Some of these minerals are mined by children in places like the Democratic Republic of Congo

https://www.speakev.com/threads/if-everyone-is-going-to-have-an-ev-were-gonna-need-more.140352/
I'm sorry there are no sources for the claims below, but the takeaway is the same:

Cobalt is not essential for li ion batteries, there was none in LEAF 24 and 30 AFAIK.

Neodymium is not essential for motors, there is none in Renaults and Model S.

The reason for using them is because engineers are good at maximising a given performance for a given price at a given time. While using those particular commodities make a given design 'cost effective' they'll be designed with them in.

In some cases, problems occur when a given design can only use a particular material or class of materials (like fuel cells, for example, expensive platinum and/or palladium is required). It is not an issue for EVs in the future; if cobalt and neodymium aren't available, EVs won't be designed with them in. That's all. Non-story. I don't know who this 'team of scientists' is, but looks like they might have got the wrong end of the stick.

I guess that's what happens when scientists try to do engineering!

Answer from green vehicle promoter to the AutoExpress article:
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/11/nope-cobalts-not-problem-ev-revolution-will-march/

 

[MatBin]

I agree that idea is a bit... out there. But if people are happy to make money on the side by doing park-on-my-drive, why would this be any different?

My 2 car driveway is unfortunately a 2 cars end-to-end driveway, not a side-by-side driveway. If I had side-by-side driveway, where anyone parking here would not affect me, I would happy to participate in similar activity, including making my 7kW home charger available.

I suspect in our exceptionally litigious society these days you may be prevented from this by your home insurance, what happens if the other car has a fault, catches light and burns your house down? Who pays up, who works out whose fault it was, the other car or your charger, what happens if there are people inside the house caught in a fire etc, I can just see a whole new world of 'fun' getting all that sorted.
Lovely idea but I cant see it working.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I seldom get to park in the same place everyday, my son would have the same problem where he lives.

This is a big issue with EVs and it will remain a sticking point until it is solved.

 

[MatBin]

I never said it was a good thing but seeing as I had to go through the exact same thing 6yrs ago, I know for a fact it isn't as bad as it may seem.
Apparently around 2/3rds of the workforce are over 50. Anyone over 55 can take early retirement and get the voluntary redundancy package as well. Anyone between 50 and 55 can also take both but can't start getting their pension until they turn 55.
Redundancy package is 1 weeks wages with shift rate per years service up to the age of 40, for every years service it will be 1.5 weeks with shift rate. On top of that there is 9 months pay with shift rate, then another 12 weeks for breach of contract. Plus because they will be required to carry on building engines until February, there will be approximately another 6 months wages which they will accrue weekly so long as there is no disruption to production. According to the BBC, the average wage at Bridgend is £45k. The closure will involve management, not all management will be local people they come from various other Ford locations so some of them will likely relocate. For people who do relocate, Ford pay for estate agent and solicitor fees as well as the actual move, all the employees have to pay for is their new home.
When car production ceased at Dagenham and the assembly plant closed in 2002, many employees relocated to the Ford Transit plant in Southampton, and as I said, one of my workmates relocated to Bridgend in 2013, so there is every chance that some may decide to relocate. Anyone who does move to another plant is given a month to decide if they like the new job, if not they can still take the voluntary redundancy and early retirements.
For those leaving the company, Ford will also pay for training courses so people will have a better chance of finding alternative work. A few of my previous workmates went on plumbing courses, brick laying, block paving etc. bought themselves vans and some tools and set themselves up in business as handymen and are doing quite well out of it, others had hgv lessons and tests paid for. The only people likely to suffer will be the local support industries.

That's a bloody site more generous than anything I have ever been offered, and that's the way it should be, although I suspect if history tells us anything they wont get many Welsh people relocating.

 

[nilagin]

That's a bloody site more generous than anything I have ever been offered, and that's the way it should be, although I suspect if history tells us anything they wont get many Welsh people relocating.

I found out yesterday that the money they will get if they don't disrupt production is a lot bigger than I first thought, more than the yearly average wage in fact. Ok it will be taxed, but they won't have to take all the money in one hit anyway. If required, Ford will delay payment of some of the money until April 2021 to reduce the tax liability.
As for relocation, as already mentioned at least one relocated from Dagenham in 2013 and some relocated from Southampton in the same year. I believe some workers relocated from Dagenham to Southampton in 2002, so if any of those had then gone onto Bridgend, they may well want to return to Dagenham. I have read that their will be 4 remaining locations, but I can only think of 3 as the 4th is a joint venture with Getrag, manufacturing gearboxes in Liverpool, I guess that would be the closest if that is included.

 

[MatBin]

I found out yesterday that the money they will get if they don't disrupt production is a lot bigger than I first thought, more than the yearly average wage in fact. Ok it will be taxed, but they won't have to take all the money in one hit anyway. If required, Ford will delay payment of some of the money until April 2021 to reduce the tax liability.
As for relocation, as already mentioned at least one relocated from Dagenham in 2013 and some relocated from Southampton in the same year. I believe some workers relocated from Dagenham to Southampton in 2002, so if any of those had then gone onto Bridgend, they may well want to return to Dagenham. I have read that their will be 4 remaining locations, but I can only think of 3 as the 4th is a joint venture with Getrag, manufacturing gearboxes in Liverpool, I guess that would be the closest if that is included.

I can understand those that relocated coming back to Dagenham but those in Wales coming out of Wales, cant see that happening, times past when pits closed they wouldn't go 5 miles down the road.

 

[stryvya]

What we need is some kind of battery that you replace on route at a Charging Station to allow you to continue on your way.
A bit like the old Accumulator we used to have to keep your Radio going, anyone remember those.?

 

[gman]

Or at the least some form of smaller backup battery which you could choose to take if you wish. Kinda like a powerbank but much bigger.

 

[stryvya]

What we need is some kind of battery that you replace on route at a Charging Station to allow you to continue on your way.
A bit like the old Accumulator we used to have to keep your Radio going, anyone remember those.?

or is that too simple?

 

[wyx087]

What we need is some kind of battery that you replace on route at a Charging Station to allow you to continue on your way.
A bit like the old Accumulator we used to have to keep your Radio going, anyone remember those.?

Would you change out your well-looked-after car engine for someone else's that is knackered? If you drive a 1 year old car, but get a 5 years old knackered battery when you did the battery swap, would you be happy? There is no way for the battery swap stations to guarantee a battery that has been well looked after, so would you exchange the most valuable piece of your car for a worse one?

Put it another way, would you rather sit through car wash machines, or park the car up and come back to a clean car (ignoring their quality of wash and cost for a moment)? The former you are involved, the latter sees a higher utilisation of your asset without wasting any of your time.

EV is like the latter. Vast majority of charging is done slowly when it is parked at your destination. You come back to a fully charged car.
If you drive beyond its range, new cars are now more than 200 miles, you'll likely need the loo. The car recharges while you take the break. Unlike petrol stations, you don't have to stand there wasting time holding the nozzle.


Of course, we'll need 150kW chargers to make 200 miles car recharge fast enough. There is currently a total of 6 operational charging stalls in two locations that can do 150kW or faster......
(4 Ionity near the channel tunnel, 2 in Fastned station in Sunderland)

 

[nilagin]

Would you change out your well-looked-after car engine for someone else's that is knackered? If you drive a 1 year old car, but get a 5 years old knackered battery when you did the battery swap, would you be happy? There is no way for the battery swap stations to guarantee a battery that has been well looked after, so would you exchange the most valuable piece of your car for a worse one?

Put it another way, would you rather sit through car wash machines, or park the car up and come back to a clean car (ignoring their quality of wash and cost for a moment)? The former you are involved, the latter sees a higher utilisation of your asset without wasting any of your time.

Anyone who subjects their cars to such cleaning, really isn't going to be concerned about how old the battery is that they have been given for the next 100+miles.

 

[wyx087]

Anyone who subjects their cars to such cleaning, really isn't going to be concerned about how old the battery is that they have been given for the next 100+miles.

Once again, well done for completely missing the point and taking the words out of context to cater for your side of argument.

Just saw this: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/top...sensor-faulty/?do=findComment&comment=5253210
A small P sensor switch in gear leaver failure? whole new gear leaver!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Vast majority of charging is done slowly when it is parked at your destination.

How does that work for the huge number of homes without off street parking?

 

[nilagin]

Once again, well done for completely missing the point and taking the words out of context to cater for your side of argument.

It's not out of context though. The majority of EV aren't cars to feel excited or passionate about. They are just a means to get from A to B. They will be owned by the same people who will fill up with any cheap supermarket fuel instead of the premium fuels that burn better and cleaner and keep the engine running better.

 

[wyx087]

How does that work for the huge number of homes without off street parking?

Road-side: lamp post charger, bollard with charger built-in; Car parks: supermarket car park charging, workplace charging.

Granted, currently, the infrastructure isn't there yet, you have to own a driveway otherwise EV is very difficult to live with.

It's not out of context though. The majority of EV aren't cars to feel excited or passionate about. They are just a means to get from A to B. They will be owned by the same people who will fill up with any cheap supermarket fuel instead of the premium fuels that burn better and cleaner and keep the engine running better.

The point was comparing time spent attending to the car, against time spent doing other stuff while the car gets cleaned/charged.

But if you want to talk about mindset of car-as-appliance people: The same people who use supermarket fuel will surely going to be very concerned if their 250 miles range car becomes 200 miles after a battery swap, because that is the minimum guaranteed (eg. 80%). Essentially de-valuing their car by a huge amount just to save 10min.

Are Taycan, E-Tron GT, Rimac and Tesla's not exciting? Is quicker acceleration not exciting? Does the inherent low centre of gravity not make the car more exciting to drive? Is more interior space and possibility of new shape of personal transport not exciting?
What is exciting by your definition? Doing something that computer can do better? Making noises?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Road-side: lamp post charger, bollard with charger built-in;

So: if the average distance between lamp posts is 30 yards (as a rough guess) then each post will have to charge 3 cars. That suggests there will be 30 yard long cables trailing along each pavement. Does that seem like a good idea to you?

 

[broc]

So: if the average distance between lamp posts is 30 yards (as a rough guess) then each post will have to charge 3 cars. That suggests there will be 30 yard long cables trailing along each pavement. Does that seem like a good idea to you?

The copper thieves will be very happy at the prospect of all of those cables just laying there .....

 

[nilagin]

Road-side: lamp post charger, bollard with charger built-in; Car parks: supermarket car park charging, workplace charging.

Granted, currently, the infrastructure isn't there yet, you have to own a driveway otherwise EV is very difficult to live with.


The point was comparing time spent attending to the car, against time spent doing other stuff while the car gets cleaned/charged.

But if you want to talk about mindset of car-as-appliance people: The same people who use supermarket fuel will surely going to be very concerned if their 250 miles range car becomes 200 miles after a battery swap, because that is the minimum guaranteed (eg. 80%). Essentially de-valuing their car by a huge amount just to save 10min.

Are Taycan, E-Tron GT, Rimac and Tesla's not exciting? Is quicker acceleration not exciting? Does the inherent low centre of gravity not make the car more exciting to drive? Is more interior space and possibility of new shape of personal transport not exciting?
What is exciting by your definition? Doing something that computer can do better? Making noises?

But you would be changing the battery again next time it needs a recharge so you wouldn't be saddled with a poor battery devaluing your vehicle. It would be very easy to monitor the battery capacity and as they get too low they can be recycled for storage purposes.

I did say most EV which will be the ones the majority can afford. You have just picked the expensive ones that are even more expensive when you require those characteristics.

What is my idea of exciting? Go and test drive a Focus RS, no longer available new but when new available for around the same price as some of the affordable EV available, fantastic handling, plenty of power, the ability to accelerate through corners which almost defies physics, excellent traction, fantastic brakes so you don't need to scrub off a little speed until the last second, should you need to. As for noise, it isn't important, but just the burble from the exhaust as the engine starts will continuously put a smile on your face as you get an inkling of the enjoyment ahead. The car doesn't even have to be pushed hard to enjoy it.

No the thought of more interior space doesn't excite me. What an odd notion!!!!

 

[MatBin]

So: if the average distance between lamp posts is 30 yards (as a rough guess) then each post will have to charge 3 cars. That suggests there will be 30 yard long cables trailing along each pavement. Does that seem like a good idea to you?

Andrew Hi, we have done this one to death. There are loads of reasons why the person without a drive is going to be hard done by.
Ev's really are the preserve of well-off people with dual driveways and enough money to upfront the cost of ownership due the their higher initial price.
ICE cars have given personal transport to the masses Ev's are going to reverse that, but why would that worry some people.

 

[4wd]

How are lamp posts going to supply power to charge three cars each drawing at least 3kw.
That's a lot more amps than one lamp, which would be needed too I expect.
Combined with the insoluble cables everywhere issue it's a complete non starter.
(overlooking for now where the power would come from on a calm cold night since we have now also committed not to burn gas apparently)

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

How are lamp posts going to supply power to charge three cars each drawing at least 3kw.
That's a lot more amps than one lamp, which would be needed too I expect.
Combined with the insoluble cables everywhere issue it's a complete non starter.
(overlooking for now where the power would come from on a calm cold night since we have now also committed not to burn gas apparently)

If each lamp post has a 240V supply, I don't think it would be difficult to wire it to supply 9kw.
My shower is 10.5 kw off a 240v feed.

 

[dod]

Would you change out your well-looked-after car engine for someone else's that is knackered? If you drive a 1 year old car, but get a 5 years old knackered battery when you did the battery swap, would you be happy? There is no way for the battery swap stations to guarantee a battery that has been well looked after, so would you exchange the most valuable piece of your car for a worse one?

Personally I relate it to buying range. I go into a petrol station, buy petrol and leave. I don't really see the battery as my problem. I'd like it to be a rental thing, I go in, battery gets swapped out, same thing at the next stop. Saves a huge amount of infrastructure being installed at a huge carbon cost.

So, to answer your question, provided the battery had the required capacity, I don't really care about the condition of it, that's the worry of the battery owner. Up to them to make sure it's fit for purpose.

 

[gman]

A terraced street has many houses too far away from lampposts and what about flats? Unless they fill the street with charging stations hooked up to each lamppost but then they would have to be on the road side of the pavement which would cause a serious parking problem as many roads are too narrow.

 

[stryvya]

Lets be honest EV`s for everyone is just Pie in the Sky.
It`s never going to happen.

 

[4wd]

If each lamp post has a 240V supply, I don't think it would be difficult to wire it to supply 9kw.
My shower is 10.5 kw off a 240v feed.

This disregards how many amps are being drawn, as an example the transformer which supplies our house and a neighbour is itself only rated to 15kv and would not cope with two of those 10kw showers.
If the street lighting circuits are going to need upgrading to goodness knows how may amps it would be easier to install a completely separate line.
More copper!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

...which would cause a serious parking problem as many roads are too narrow.

How dare you sully this discussion with plain good sense? Don't you realise that EVs are the way of the future and second only to flying cars in their practicality?

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

This disregards how many amps are being drawn, as an example the transformer which supplies our house and a neighbour is itself only rated to 15kv and would not cope with two of those 10kw showers.
If the street lighting circuits are going to need upgrading to goodness knows how may amps it would be easier to install a completely separate line.
More copper!

Apparently a lamp post charger can supply between 3-7kw/hr, and each lamp post has one charge point.
In most cases no further modification to the supply is required.
Not suitable for fast charging though.

 

[4wd]

Apparently a lamp post charger can supply between 3-7kw/hr, and each lamp post has one charge point.
In most cases no further modification to the supply is required.
Not suitable for fast charging though.

This is unlikely, a circuit intended for lighting won't have anywhere near the capacity to run that sort of power over practically every lamp post.
It might work if only one per street had the additional outlets.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

This is unlikely, a circuit intended for lighting won't have anywhere near the capacity to run that sort of power over practically every lamp post.
It might work if only one per street had the additional outlets.

That's not what I've been reading.
Commercial lighting circuits are unlikely to be the same as domestic.
I'd imagine the companies supplying and installing them know what they're doing, and will have considerably more knowledge than you or I.

 

[wyx087]

https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/b2b-local-authorities/
The current leading lamppost solution does not say whether it does or doesn't require replacement of existing cable. But there's already so many already installed and I've personally not seen newly laid road near the lampposts.

Flats car parks can get chargers built-in. The new block of flats next to North Circular bottleneck point (end of Bowes Road) has an EV charger at every bay. The houses behind those flat has no garden (booo), but has solar panels on the roof and EV charger pre-installed (yay).

But you would be changing the battery again next time it needs a recharge so you wouldn't be saddled with a poor battery devaluing your vehicle. It would be very easy to monitor the battery capacity and as they get too low they can be recycled for storage purposes.

Personally I relate it to buying range. I go into a petrol station, buy petrol and leave. I don't really see the battery as my problem. I'd like it to be a rental thing, I go in, battery gets swapped out, same thing at the next stop. Saves a huge amount of infrastructure being installed at a huge carbon cost.

So, to answer your question, provided the battery had the required capacity, I don't really care about the condition of it, that's the worry of the battery owner. Up to them to make sure it's fit for purpose.

So in your view, it is better to have battery-swap facilities instead of re-charging? Every 200-300 miles you are required to visit a battery-swap station?

Or, battery swap only happens for long distance drive. Then, if someone only travels long distance every 2 blue moons, other times they drive their car close to its range limit. Each and every battery swap becomes a gamble, whether this newly swapped in battery will be able to sustain the same driving style.

Battery rental has proven to be pointless and unpopular by early Leaf and Zoe. Battery swap had been tested by EV manufacturers and had not taken off. En-route charging time is ever decreasing, with infrastructure cost covered by on-site batteries also getting paid to provide grid services. And there are so many different shapes and sizes of cars. So it's unlikely we'll ever see battery swap stations ever........

Ev's really are the preserve of well-off people with dual driveways and enough money to upfront the cost of ownership due the their higher initial price.
ICE cars have given personal transport to the masses Ev's are going to reverse that, but why would that worry some people.

I personally see the opposite when EV's begin to trickle down in the used market and budget segment. AEB and ACC used to be a high-end car option, now it's in almost every segment.

The current stumbling blocks for the less well-off are: (as been pointed out)
- EV purchase price, due to lack of choices of EV, many manufacturer did not make their EV available in volume here (Focus EV, Fiat 500e, etc)
- Driveway requirement, due to lack of investment on public charging. Start-ups does not have the resource to do these install, need the car companies and local government support. See Ubitricity install coverage in a well supported borough, see Milton Keynes.

Then, there's possibility of cheaper AI driven taxi. Something my parents, who are approaching 70, are looking forward to.

 

[gman]

There are a huge amount of flats in Glasgow never mind the rest of the country which are simply roadside. They don't have their own car parks, on street charges will never be suitable for them.

 

[viv1969]

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of older blocks of flats which don't have a dedicated parking space for every flat. Most of them in cramped urban locations.
How will that be resolved?

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

There are a huge amount of flats in Glasgow never mind the rest of the country which are simply roadside. They don't have their own car parks, on street charges will never be suitable for them.

If they park on the street, why won't on street chargers ever be suitable?
I understand that there is unlikely to be enough chargers for everyone, but that's a different issue.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I understand that there is unlikely to be enough chargers for everyone, but that's a different issue.

On the contrary: that's the main issue. The problem with all "great ideas" is that they always neglect the needs and wishes of those who make the "great idea" difficult or impossible.

 

[wyx087]

It's unlikely not a single location the car regularly parked, will have a charging point in the future. (that sentence reads funny...)
Supermarket? workplace? shopping centre? gym? retail park? restaurant? cinema?

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of older blocks of flats which don't have a dedicated parking space for every flat. Most of them in cramped urban locations.

What is the car ownership percentage in flats situated in cramped urban locations? If I lived in central London, shops and step-free public transport at my doorstep, I wouldn't own any car.

On the contrary: that's the main issue. The problem with all "great ideas" is that they always neglect the needs and wishes of those who make the "great idea" difficult or impossible.

Isn't early adopters of great ideas always the more well-off? What's the point of complaining when it's a matter of time the not-so-well-off will benefit. Of course, it require looking into the future, rather than dwelling in the current.
Back in 2008, how many not-so-well-off people had a touch screen smartphone? Was that a great idea? yet, now, the same people are reaping smart phone benefits by no longer needing a computer to access internet services.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Back in 2008, how many not-so-well-off people had a touch screen smartphone? Was that a great idea? yet, now, the same people are reaping smart phone benefits by no longer needing a computer to access internet services.

Not quite the same thing.

 

[MatBin]

What is the car ownership percentage in flats situated in cramped urban locations? If I lived in central London, shops and step-free public transport at my doorstep, I wouldn't own any car.

That was my point earlier, swathes of people will feel the cost of car "ownership" for the occasional travel that isn't covered by public transport is too expensive. If they have little or no possibility of charging their car they will be forced onto public transport.
How many people commute each day, leaving a the car doing nothing all week and then just use it at weekends for a weekly food shopping trip etc, affordable because of the relatively inexpensive price of ICE cars on top of their commuting costs.

So you really fancy doing that weekly food shop on the bus laden down with 6 bags of stuff in the rain/cold/late at night.
Not everyone wants to kill off high street shops by using the internet, getting fresh produce via Ocado etc isn't always a good option. Lots of shopping requires actually visiting the "shop", for instance I purchased some plants recently via the web for my garden, absolute rubbish, never again, I want to go to the garden centre and see what I am buying, same thing for fresh produce. There's no public transport to the garden centre, I could take a taxi, and get a different one back but how inconvenient is that compared to my own "cheap" ICE car, plus I don't fancy carting home 3 bags of compost on the bus.

Personal transport is an ingrained thing in the UK, a few times I have worked abroad and I have used their excellent public transport as I didn't have a car, despite affordability, frequency etc it never replaced my desire to have my own vehicle for the odd time when public transport didn't suffice.

Mass car ownership is ingrained in modern UK culture and if people cannot afford an EV they will continue to use old ICE, I can see a return to the 50/60 when only the rich drove their own vehicles and ordinary people either had motorbikes (with or without sidecars) or ended up driving rusty old bangers. Progress, I don't think so.