Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

Status
Not open for further replies.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric-cars-already-cheaper-own-run-study

EV are already cheapest to own. One study by ICCT on cost of ownership over 4 years in 5 EU countries show EV is cheapest to own in all 5 countries. A separate report by Leeds Uni published in 2017 also came to the same conclusion.

At the same time, ICCT study suggests PHEV is most expensive to own.

Of course, it does point out:
Sandra Wappelhorst, from the ICCT, said: “Most trips are within an electric vehicle’s range, and it is the battery electric vehicle that turns out to be the most cost effective over four years. But if you’re a country doctor, who might have to respond to emergency calls at odd hours in odd places, you’ll have to evaluate a battery electric car differently to a London surgeon.”
Click to expand...

Cheap to run AND instant torque response, PLUS Rolls-like quiet acceleration. ;)
 
wuyanxu said:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric-cars-already-cheaper-own-run-study

EV are already cheapest to own. One study by ICCT on cost of ownership over 4 years in 5 EU countries show EV is cheapest to own in all 5 countries. A separate report by Leeds Uni published in 2017 also came to the same conclusion.

At the same time, ICCT study suggests PHEV is most expensive to own.

Of course, it does point out:


Cheap to run AND instant torque response, PLUS Rolls-like quiet acceleration. ;)
Click to expand...

Of course they are cheap to run, they don't do much mileage :D
 
Nod said:
And I know for a fact that plenty of the little sh!ts who wanted a day off school and to get on the telly "strikers" were delivered to the sites in cars, many of them diesels.
Click to expand...
It half term next week ( for most of the country) Couldn't they have just done this on Monday and not disrupted term / learning time?
In fact they could have protested all week without missing lessons (y)
:D
 
wave01 said:
Let's get this straight late 20th century 1997 the then labour government encouraged people to buy diesel to be green. What are we trying to say now is they are bad. THEY NEW what was in the fumes then. If they want to make cities cleaner then target the ageing buses and lorries and vans of the council first. Let's see them spend before the duped public who thought they were doing the right thing
Click to expand...
This. My understanding is that these vehicles are still exempt from emission tests.
 
The final paragraph of that article says all that needs to be said, really.

Probably worth mentioning that (as Mr McScrooge points out) the article is a year or more old so several of the figures are well out of date.
 
The comment in the RAC article by Andy T is well put:

I'm underwhelmed by the journalistic quality here. There's a lot of vague sweeping statements with very little reference to the sources. One fact that hasn't been talked about is the carbon footprint of petrol and diesel BEFORE you've even burned it. It takes a very large amount of electricty to refine these fuels. Electricity that can be used to fuel EVs when we don't need so much petrol and diesel! I don't believe the hype regarding the need for twice the number of power stations either. I don't hear the National Grid panicking! Charging is mostly done at night and there is plenty of excess power at those times.
The article also talks about it not being possible to store renewable electricty. Well that's another trick that EVs have up their sleeve!
I think it's important to remain optimistic about new technology. Five Ten years ago I wouldn't have dreamed about some of the possibilities of electrification. Now we are talking about electric airoplanes and not just single seaters! The future is cleantech and I personally can't wait.


Changed one word, as 5 years ago, 2014, I was already looking at EV's. Heck, I was intrigued by Nissan Leaf back in 2012. But in 2009, I was enjoying every gearshift, refuse to drive an automatic gearbox and laughing at Prius. I think Tesla as flagship EV and Nissan Leaf as affordable EV changed my perception of EV's.
 
So is it just me or are Ford just pushing a new car the ALL-NEW FOCUS Active X that contains either a petrol or diesel engine.
No electric, Hybrid or even PHEV version?
Are they just looking to go extinct or do they just think they are to big to fail?
 
Mr Bump said:
So is it just me or are Ford just pushing a new car the ALL-NEW FOCUS Active X that contains either a petrol or diesel engine.
No electric, Hybrid or even PHEV version?
Are they just looking to go extinct or do they just think they are to big to fail?
Click to expand...
The only fail is your distinct lack of knowledge on anything to do with cars. Do you do it just for the attention?
Ford have already said that there will be hybrid and electric versions of all their cars as well as petrol and diesel.
 
Really quite tempted by the ST estate. Need to start work on getting the missus to warm to the idea.
 
bass_junkie83 said:
Really quite tempted by the ST estate. Need to start work on getting the missus to warm to the idea.
Click to expand...
Although the new ST has just been unveiled, I think it will be summer before they are actually on sale so you have a few months.
There is a black ST-line X that I see every day at work, looks really nice.
 
Mr Bump said:
So is it just me or are Ford just pushing a new car the ALL-NEW FOCUS Active X that contains either a petrol or diesel engine.
No electric, Hybrid or even PHEV version?
Are they just looking to go extinct or do they just think they are to big to fail?
Click to expand...
Shock News car manufacturer brings out new car. So yes I think it is just you.
 
nilagin said:
Ford have already said that there will be hybrid and electric versions of all their cars as well as petrol and diesel.
Click to expand...
All non plug-in versions are only 48v system though isn't it?
Not even 1999 Prius level electrification, still a predominantly ICE car with some electrification to get pass emissions tests.
 
This was interesting from another forum, as the owner debated the woes of charging in London of all places:

I live 60 miles outside London and for two years have had access to a plug-in hybrid which I use periodically to drive in, not least for the current parking and congestion zone perks. It's also nice to waft around town on electric and save the locals from my fumes, but when I get there my electric range is gone, so I really need to plug in.

My failed efforts to do this would have been comical, were they not so irritating. Zap-Map (the 'integrated source' of charging info) is clunky and often has incorrect data on whether charging points are working, or available. The charging points near where I stay over are operated by Ubitricity and Charge Your Car (CYC).

Ubitricity will sell you something called a SmartCable which works out for me at several times more expensive per mile than using the fuel in the car, so they can forget that. Their website also mentions Pay as you Go using your own cable and a credit card but that system apparently isn't working yet.

CYC's App is so poor that the nice people in their Customer Service Centre say don't bother with it. It has never yet worked for me, despite my opening an account with them and providing DD details. In any case, their one local charger is often broken, or worse, shows as free on Zap-Map but when you drive there it is occupied. CYC have been bought out and a new, better App is supposed to be in testing, but there is no sign of that yet either.

Altogether, in two years I have only ever managed to charge once, and that was after pleading on the 'phone with CYC's Customer Service to connect me. I'm hoping to switch to an EV later this year, and have been mulling the options. Because of the above experiences it boils down to Tesla, who have a supercharger en route into town where half an hour would fill any range gap for me. Even then, the forums say that is often full with a queue.
I'm not a fan of lingering at a charger for an hour and a half to get enough juice to get home, so anything else seems much too risky.
 
wuyanxu said:
Changed one word, as 5 years ago, 2014, I was already looking at EV's. Heck, I was intrigued by Nissan Leaf back in 2012. But in 2009, I was enjoying every gearshift, refuse to drive an automatic gearbox and laughing at Prius. I think Tesla as flagship EV and Nissan Leaf as affordable EV changed my perception of EV's.
Click to expand...

I'd like a Tesla, thought about swapping the TVR and MX-5 for one, but just couldn't make the figures work, and I'd still need my big diesel/petrol estate for trips to Pembroke because no charging infrastructure.
I've looked at and tried old leaf and new leaf, but our regular/irregular journey patterns don't fall into where this would work. Yes it would be ok for 60% of the time and journeys but I'd need another car to cover where it couldn't go (or would be inconvenient to charge at the other end). Pop to swansea, pick up lad from Uni, sorry got to wait hours to recharge to get back after a 2 hour journey. That just doesn't work. Keeping a second car of the same size to cover doesn't offset the cheaper running of an EV.

I can see the advantages, they just don't work for me yet and several other drivers and their journey types. We need more range, lots and lots more infrastructure.
 
nilagin said:
They plan to cover all options so customers will be able to chose which ever suits their requirements best.
Click to expand...
Nice advertising, doesn't really answer why the massive electrification gap between 2019 all new Ford (micro?) hybrids with tiny 48v and 1999 Toyota Prius hybrid that can actually drive a few miles in EV mode. All I see is empty promises and zero full electric options from Ford.

Byker28i said:
This was interesting from another forum, as the owner debated the woes of charging in London of all places:

I live 60 miles outside London and for two years have had access to a plug-in hybrid which I use periodically to drive in, not least for the current parking and congestion zone perks. It's also nice to waft around town on electric and save the locals from my fumes, but when I get there my electric range is gone, so I really need to plug in.

My failed efforts to do this would have been comical, were they not so irritating. Zap-Map (the 'integrated source' of charging info) is clunky and often has incorrect data on whether charging points are working, or available. The charging points near where I stay over are operated by Ubitricity and Charge Your Car (CYC).

Ubitricity will sell you something called a SmartCable which works out for me at several times more expensive per mile than using the fuel in the car, so they can forget that. Their website also mentions Pay as you Go using your own cable and a credit card but that system apparently isn't working yet.

CYC's App is so poor that the nice people in their Customer Service Centre say don't bother with it. It has never yet worked for me, despite my opening an account with them and providing DD details. In any case, their one local charger is often broken, or worse, shows as free on Zap-Map but when you drive there it is occupied. CYC have been bought out and a new, better App is supposed to be in testing, but there is no sign of that yet either.

Altogether, in two years I have only ever managed to charge once, and that was after pleading on the 'phone with CYC's Customer Service to connect me. I'm hoping to switch to an EV later this year, and have been mulling the options. Because of the above experiences it boils down to Tesla, who have a supercharger en route into town where half an hour would fill any range gap for me. Even then, the forums say that is often full with a queue.
I'm not a fan of lingering at a charger for an hour and a half to get enough juice to get home, so anything else seems much too risky.
Click to expand...
Haha, that's poor, and I fully understand his frustration.

Zap-map information on whether a charger is broken is crowd sourced. The Polar based chargers (CYC) update availability every 5 min, so can't be relied upon. CYC is now part of Polar, they have their own fee structure, but you can get a Polar plus card using free 3 months membership (remember to cancel) and gain access to most CYC chargers for free.

Over the whole of my EV ownership, I've not put myself in situations to relied on public destination (7kW) chargers. I'd use them if they are free or if I need to use it as cheap parking space (bad I know).

I personally still think rapid (50kW+) charging infrastructure is more important. Like the Electric Highway by Ecotricity or Superchargers by Tesla. Destination charging is nice to have, but not necessary (or even useful) when we move away from PHEV, when 200+ miles EV is common place.
 
wuyanxu said:
Nice advertising, doesn't really answer why the massive electrification gap between 2019 all new Ford (micro?) hybrids with tiny 48v and 1999 Toyota Prius hybrid that can actually drive a few miles in EV mode. All I see is empty promises and zero full electric options from Ford.
Click to expand...
As I have said before, Ev's are currently selling at a loss. Recharging infrastructure still appears to be fragile even with the few Ev's on the road at the moment. Ford actually introduced a fully electric Focus 4yrs ago with similar range to the Leaf at the time. But it was withdrawn again soon after. I suspect from poor sales. The only ones I have ever seen are the fleet of cars that security use on site at work.
The car is still on sale in the US however.
So no it isn't empty promises, it is a matter of selling large numbers of cars that will actually sell and try to make a profit, rather than selling just a few cars that won't make a profit.
 
wuyanxu said:
Over the whole of my EV ownership, I've not put myself in situations to relied on public destination (7kW) chargers. I'd use them if they are free or if I need to use it as cheap parking space (bad I know).
Click to expand...

Since the discussion on EV parking spaces I've bothered to check. I've often seen EV cars parked in EV only space without being charged. Is this because those spaces are free compared to the rest of the car park? i.e. they are supposed to get the money from the charging of the car?
 
nilagin said:
As I have said before, Ev's are currently selling at a loss. Recharging infrastructure still appears to be fragile even with the few Ev's on the road at the moment. Ford actually introduced a fully electric Focus 4yrs ago with similar range to the Leaf at the time. But it was withdrawn again soon after. I suspect from poor sales. The only ones I have ever seen are the fleet of cars that security use on site at work.
The car is still on sale in the US however.
So no it isn't empty promises, it is a matter of selling large numbers of cars that will actually sell and try to make a profit, rather than selling just a few cars that won't make a profit.
Click to expand...
In other words: Ford is a "fast follower".

Good for Ford, and all of the traditional auto industry. But when there's actual innovation going on, when there are more than tiny evolutionary compliance changes every 5 years:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-top-priority-automakers-bmw-dealer-model-3-affecting-sales/

Byker28i said:
Since the discussion on EV parking spaces I've bothered to check. I've often seen EV cars parked in EV only space without being charged. Is this because those spaces are free compared to the rest of the car park? i.e. they are supposed to get the money from the charging of the car?
Click to expand...
You still need to pay for parking at car parks (sensible). Only road-side charging spots in and around London are free or cheaply for 4 hours (often abused)

Problem is with destination charging, there's no expectation for you to move your car when charging has finished. So parking attendants can't ticket an EV plugged in but not charging. Some chargers lock their port flap to prevent this, but I know Source London chargers doesn't, which opens to abuse.
 
wuyanxu said:
In other words: Ford is a "fast follower".

Good for Ford, and all of the traditional auto industry. But when there's actual innovation going on, when there are more than tiny evolutionary compliance changes every 5 years:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-top-priority-automakers-bmw-dealer-model-3-affecting-sales/
Click to expand...
That is just for the American market. Hardly a good example for saloon car ownership. As a whole Tesla sold 169,390 cars in the US in 2018, if they could have done that with just the model 3, that would have put it 9th in America's top 10 selling cars for 2018.
But it still falls short of America's No.1 for 35 consecutive years which, last year, sold over 451k units. That no.1 seller makes a profit, Tesla don't. Tesla has only made a profit for something like 2 quarters in all the years they have been making and selling cars. It is a wonder they are still in business, it was expected they would have run out of money last year, but somehow they are still going. Recently Tesla has been reducing it workforces in an attempt to bring costs down so they can reduce the prices of their cars as well as try to make a profit.
As I have mentioned before, Ford sell electric and hybrid vehicles in America and have done so for quite a few years because the size of the market and their sales have made it worthwhile. But in the UK and the rest of Europe the market and sales haven't made it worthwhile yet.
Although over the last 12 months there has been a dramatic increase in EV sales in the UK with almost 60,000 registered, that total from all EV sales falls behind the number 1 selling car by almost 36k units.
So I repeat, until it isn't really worthwhile until it can make a profit so as manufacturers and for the sake of employees, they can remain in business.
 
Don't confuse him with facts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top