Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[wyx087]

When I initially moved here with a Mercedes C-coupe 5 years ago, insurance for one car was eye-watering £1300.
We had a banger Fiat Panda for a year, wife's learner insurance was almost £2 a day. Around £2000 in total.

So able to insure 2 spacious cars for same price as previous 1 car, combined with saving lots money on fuel, meant my 2 newer car ownership cost is not much more expensive than driving 1 ~10 years old car. All thanks to the EV have so cheap total cost of ownership.

Apart from car insurance cost, we like it here very much

 

[wyx087]

Are Ford still saying no demand for EV's?

VW receiving 10,000+ preorders for ID 3 in first 24 hours. https://electrek.co/2019/05/09/vw-10000-preorders-id3/

 

[nilagin]

Are Ford still saying no demand for EV's?

VW receiving 10,000+ preorders for ID 3 in first 24 hours. https://electrek.co/2019/05/09/vw-10000-preorders-id3/

Compared to Tesla's 232k preorders in 24hrs for the Model 3 in 2016 it looks like demand is falling.

 

[decigallen]

Compared to Tesla's 232k preorders in 24hrs for the Model 3 in 2016 it looks like demand is falling.

That was worldwide. Id3 is Europe only. Also, the model 3 had greater hype. 10k blind for what is essentially a golf, is incredible.

 

[nilagin]

That was worldwide. Id3 is Europe only. Also, the model 3 had greater hype. 10k blind for what is essentially a golf, is incredible.

Out of 232k worldwide preorders for a Tesla 3, I would imagine the preorders from Europe would still be a substantial number and likely to have been a lot higher than 10k.

 

[MatBin]

Had a go in my son's plug-in hybrid S Class Merc today, very refined, superb suspension and very rapid both under battery and when the ice kicked in. Then again at £130k it ought to be nice.

 

[wave01]

I am in Spain at the moment. Nice to see they are starting to put charging points on the street. I saw a Tesla charging. While I was on the way to the bank. So on my way back some 20 minutes later still charging. Looking round the shops for another 25 minutes. Still charging with a very frustrated driver who had been there all that time. This looks like a real world situation low charge and needed to go somewhere. So is the world ready for this or are we backing the wrong technology

 

[Mr Bump]

Are Ford still saying no demand for EV's?

VW receiving 10,000+ preorders for ID 3 in first 24 hours. https://electrek.co/2019/05/09/vw-10000-preorders-id3/

FORD don't give a s*** about the planet, come on dude @nilagin he just a corporate pension chaser, you're better than that.

 

[nilagin]

FORD don't give a s*** about the planet, come on dude @nilagin he just a corporate pension chaser, you're better than that.

Bold statement. Care to provide the evidence to back it up?

Meanwhile

https://www.electrive.com/2019/04/03/ford-presents-european-electrification-plans/

https://corporate.ford.com/microsit...t-2017-18/driving-change/electrification.html


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BRAB&usg=AOvVaw1mHX8jhyJNdNl0EPS-E_xK&ampcf=1

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw3hqcEddPOH-BrEFvQJCsfD&ampcf=1

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3vWBDI6dovve1E1qzTWVAj



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BBAB&usg=AOvVaw0XwdF-bA49QxkceyizoM1Z&ampcf=1



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw3wOcPje-q15rxAswUUNXrm&ampcf=1



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BRAB&usg=AOvVaw10Y7MMDjRfOrOSnHuJ_f6D&ampcf=1

 

[wyx087]

Bold statement. Care to provide the evidence to back it up?

Meanwhile

https://www.electrive.com/2019/04/03/ford-presents-european-electrification-plans/

https://corporate.ford.com/microsit...t-2017-18/driving-change/electrification.html


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BRAB&usg=AOvVaw1mHX8jhyJNdNl0EPS-E_xK&ampcf=1

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw3hqcEddPOH-BrEFvQJCsfD&ampcf=1

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3vWBDI6dovve1E1qzTWVAj



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/transit/106491/new-all-electric-ford-transit-van-to-arrive-in-2021?amp&ved=2ahUKEwjAptTfyZXiAhXq8eAKHUgiDswQFjACegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0XwdF-bA49QxkceyizoM1Z&ampcf=1



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ARAB&usg=AOvVaw3wOcPje-q15rxAswUUNXrm&ampcf=1



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BRAB&usg=AOvVaw10Y7MMDjRfOrOSnHuJ_f6D&ampcf=1

Mr Bump's comment has some merit. Ford, like pretty much all of the motor industry, is a follower, not actively leading the charge to help everyone into greener vehicles.

Snippets from articles you have provided:

Ford (F) is playing catch-up to a number of other automakers' efforts to develop electric vehicles. It does not currently sell any pure electric vehicles, although it sells some plug-in hybrid cars.

Older firms such as Ford and VW are also being forced to catch up with newer, tech-focused firms such as Uber and Tesla in developing self-driving and electric cars.

“We see in different markets that consumers are more willing to drive battery-electric vehicles,” and EVs are “a strong trend in markets like China,” Marakby said. Consumers in such main markets “have become more willing ot adapt to battery electrics. In the past, we’ve seen range anxiety and other reasons for people to be hesitant. We see that changing significantly.”

A change of tune from 2017:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/22/business/energy-environment/automakers-pruitt-mileage-rules.html

The Obama administration’s fuel-economy targets “threaten to depress an industry that can ill afford spiraling regulatory costs,” Mitch Bainwol, the chief executive of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, wrote in a letter on Tuesday. The group represents 12 manufacturers, including General Motors, Ford Motor and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles.

I am in Spain at the moment. Nice to see they are starting to put charging points on the street. I saw a Tesla charging. While I was on the way to the bank. So on my way back some 20 minutes later still charging. Looking round the shops for another 25 minutes. Still charging with a very frustrated driver who had been there all that time. This looks like a real world situation low charge and needed to go somewhere. So is the world ready for this or are we backing the wrong technology

Must be a very badly informed driver who don't understand EV offers flexible charging speeds. On-street parking near the High Street usually means they are "destination charging". They are no different to parking spots with a bonus: you leave with a full charge after parking there.
The driver, if wanted to go somewhere quickly, should have used "en-route charging". I see Tesla have a very nice supercharger network in Spain, unlike other manufacturer backed Ionity network, which is still non-existence in Spain and UK.

 

[nilagin]

Mr Bump's comment has some merit. Ford, like pretty much all of the motor industry, is a follower, not actively leading the charge to help everyone into greener vehicles.

No it doesn't, How many more times are you going to ignore the fact that Ford have had Ev's in the past and lack of interest in such vehicles and cost has made them uneconomical to produce?
What other manufacturer has a fleet of electric vans operating in Germany delivering parcels? Name another manufacturer that has supplied a fleet of EV vans to various companies to use in London and other cities.
Name another company that has been testing and developing an EV minibus to provide good usable range whilst keeping passengers warm and comfortable.
Name another manufacturer that has been recording and making use of the data from how and where people use their ev's and charging habits so people will be able to get better use from their ev's.
As for your 10k VW pre orders in 24hrs. Seeing as only 30k cars will be produced with capped free recharging for initial buyers, it was bound to raise a false impression of mass interest, especially with the base vehicle priced at under €30k. Obviously a price they can't sustain otherwise why limit the production run?

As for the quoted piece about Ford and VW being forced to catch up with the likes of Tesla and Uber for autonomous and electric vehicles, Ford have been developing autonomous vehicles for several years now and as mentioned in a previous post are rated much higher than Tesla on that score. Also to add the only autonomous cars I have read about that have been involved in accidents, some resulting in fatalities, are Tesla, Uber and Google.

 

[wyx087]

Name another manufacturer that has supplied a fleet of EV vans to various companies to use in London and other cities.

Not sure about Germany, but there's lots of Nissan e-NV200 vans about in London. You make them available to purchase and people will buy it.

Name another company that has been testing and developing an EV minibus to provide good usable range whilst keeping passengers warm and comfortable.

I've been in Nissan e-NV200 minibus as hotel-airport transfers in Prague, Malaga and Florence 2-3 years ago. Where are the Ford EV minibuses, I don't see any available to purchase?

Name another manufacturer that has been recording and making use of the data from how and where people use their ev's and charging habits so people will be able to get better use from their ev's.

I'm sorry, how is this relevant to actually making the EV's available for purchase? I also don't see how, with zero Ford EV on sale in the UK, Ford can claim they are able to gather data to profile UK EV use-cases. Those kind of data is only really useful for building charge infrastructure, which Ford does not do here in UK, only fund a third party.

How many more times are you going to ignore the fact that Ford have had Ev's in the past and lack of interest in such vehicles and cost has made them uneconomical to produce?

So in 2018, Ford announced $11 billion investment in EV and hybrids. Whereas good city EV (Leaf, Zoe, Soul, etc) had been on sale for many years in UK.
Looking at US, Ford's front lawn, apart from Focus EV, there's no other battery-EV from Ford. No small van version of the Focus EV like Nissan, no update on the Focus EV. In fact, it is now no longer available for purchase, with no replacement announced.
Lack of interest is due to high asking price on Ford's only EV for sale. It's like when you don't want to sell something, you'd price it high so people be less likely to be interested in it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric

When compared to other plug-in electric vehicles available in the U.S., the Focus Electric had essentially the same price as the 2012 Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid, and it costs US$3,945 more than the base-model 2012 Nissan Leaf SV.

Currently EV production is constrained by battery production, because no traditional auto manufacturer have invested in those until last year or so. This is the reason for limited EV production despite high demand. Thankfully, there's this one car manufacturer that does own multiple battery factories, they have another one almost finished in Shanghai.

 

[nilagin]

2018 Ford announced a further $11Bn investment. That is on top of previous investments.
The Nissan e-NV200 is only a small van/minibus and as such only worth using for hotel-airport transfers. If it had to pick up and drop off passengers during winter with it's heating on, it's range could be reduced by 50%. The minibus Ford are developing will have a longer range, be able to perform multiple pickups rather than just simple transfers and transport a minimum of 10 passengers rather than the 7 passengers the Nissan can carry.
There is no Focus EV in America for one reason only, that size car is uneconomical to build in America and due to Trump's import duties would be too expensive to ship in from abroad. The only "car" Ford will be selling in America will be the Mustang, everything else will be SUV s, vans and pickup trucks.
The Focus EV wasn't priced highly to make sure people didn't buy them, they were priced highly to reduce the losses they were making by actually building and selling them. You truly don't have any grasp on car manufacturing and being able to make a profit.
Do Tesla own the battery factories, I maybe wrong but I was under the impression Panasonic produced the batteries in the Tesla gigafactories.
If you knew anything about the car manufacturing industry, it isn't always advisable to own everything in the car industry because if demand falls for any number of reasons, you then have the expense of laying off your workforce. Tesla still struggle to make a profit, they are only surviving on the pre-order deposits for future cars, what investment they can raise, or Musk buying shares in the company with his own money.

 

[PaulF]

Mr Bump's comment has some merit. Ford, like pretty much all of the motor industry, is a follower, not actively leading the charge to help everyone into greener vehicles.

You keep making this statement about Ford being late to the EV party, which is factually incorrect. I'm no fan of Ford myself, not on my top 5 list of cars I'd purchase, but, they did as @nilagin keeps stating invest in EV long before Tesla where even thought of or Musk born for that matter.

1914 - First Ford EV - Detroit Electric, 80 mile range, Mrs Ford had one!

1966 - Ford developed battery technology which it planned to use in it's new EV cars.

1967 - Ford unveiled an experimental all electric Comuta Minicar (built in Britain) - nothing came of it though.

1998 - Ford produced the Ranger EV - 80 mile range pickup, mainly to Government departments.

1999 - Ford bought Think Global for $23 million, a European EV production company since 1991.

1999 - Ford invested £100 million in battery development

1999 - Ford launched the Think City, 53 mile range with a top speed of 55mph - didn't sell many though, around 1000.

2003 - Tesla was founded.

As I mentioned, I'm not a Ford fan but repeatedly making incorrect statements does nothing to support your argument/view, it leads the reader to ignore/dismiss your other possibly correct statements as just more incorrect bias rubbish.

I know Tesla's goal is to promote EV to the masses and are not too concerned about making a profit but that is ultimately unsustainable unless a profit can be made by the mass production manufacturers. This is proving difficult at the moment for various reasons already discussed in this thread.

Source https://insideevs.com/features/342330/ford-electric-cars-past-present-and-future/

 

[wyx087]

Let's look at figures: $23 million, £100 million. They are a far cry from $11 billion they promised to spend last year, a small portion compared to $500 million they gave Rivian this year. In comparison, how much was spent on ICE development back then, in the same year?

The truth is far from black and white, while Ford does do EV development, but it had not done it in earnest with a goal to lead the industry away from fossil fuel. No manufacturer did until Dieselgate. Now, VW appears to be pushing EV as their next big thing.

As I mentioned, I'm not a Ford fan but repeatedly making incorrect statements does nothing to support your argument/view, it leads the reader to ignore/dismiss your other possibly correct statements as just more incorrect bias rubbish.

Same can be said for you. I have never made the incorrect statement as you claimed. You claim I am suggesting Ford never did EV development prior. Whereas I am assessing a company from its products: no Ford EV can be found on Autotrader, only recently a mostly hybrid vehicles announcement. Too little too late for Ford.

There is no Focus EV in America for one reason only, that size car is uneconomical to build in America and due to Trump's import duties would be too expensive to ship in from abroad. The only "car" Ford will be selling in America will be the Mustang, everything else will be SUV s, vans and pickup trucks.

Then why isn't there any electric Ford "car" available for sale elsewhere? Is it because it had served its purpose to avoid paying the emission fine faced by FCA? Its purpose seems no different to the Fiat 500e, which was only available in California to comply with regulations.

Do Tesla own the battery factories, I maybe wrong but I was under the impression Panasonic produced the batteries in the Tesla gigafactories.

Actually, good point. I'm not entirely sure who owns what. But I don't see any other car manufacturer has their names on a battery factory that is producing battery exclusively for them. Although there is probably a few in China, who will be leading in EV technology in 2-3 decades.

 

[nilagin]

Let's look at figures: $23 million, £100 million. They are a far cry from $11 billion they promised to spend last year, a small portion compared to $500 million they gave Rivian this year. In comparison, how much was spent on ICE development back then, in the same year?

The truth is far from black and white, while Ford does do EV development, but it had not done it in earnest with a goal to lead the industry away from fossil fuel. No manufacturer did until Dieselgate. Now, VW appears to be pushing EV as their next big thing.


Same can be said for you. I have never made the incorrect statement as you claimed. You claim I am suggesting Ford never did EV development prior. Whereas I am assessing a company from its products: no Ford EV can be found on Autotrader, only recently a mostly hybrid vehicles announcement. Too little too late for Ford.


Then why isn't there any electric Ford "car" available for sale elsewhere? Is it because it had served its purpose to avoid paying the emission fine faced by FCA? Its purpose seems no different to the Fiat 500e, which was only available in California to comply with regulations.


Actually, good point. I'm not entirely sure who owns what. But I don't see any other car manufacturer has their names on a battery factory that is producing battery exclusively for them. Although there is probably a few in China, who will be leading in EV technology in 2-3 decades.

Ford never promised to spend $11Bn last year. They pledged a further investment of $11Bn over the next few years.
Yet again you are ignoring the fact that there has only been a surge in EV ownership over the last 12 months or so, prior to that the number of Ev's on UK roads was very small.
If Ford only had the Focus EV to avoid paying the FCA emissions fines, explain how they are still avoiding the emissions fines without an EV in their current range.
Fiat, as i have already mentioned twice recently in thiscthread,have just paid Tesla a large sum of money to use their CO2 figures.
Yet again your maths fails you. Ford have announced a 24 hybrid/electric vehicle programme over the next few years, 16 of which will be electric. I realise it is almost 40yrs since I left school but I am fairly sure that 16 is a larger number than 8, in fact I think it might actually be double. The promised hybrid vehicles are on top of the hybrid vehicles they have already been selling for a few years.
You say Ford have done too little too late. Too little too late for what? Whilst other EV manufacturers have been selling relatively low range vehicles on the most part, Ford have been developing longer range vehicles for when they are ready to go to market, they have been investing in much safer, cheaper and greener battery technology. Plus Ford have a very healthy bank balance unlike a supposedly highly innovative EV manufacturer. In the next few years Tesla will have just 5 vehicles to choose from, quite a bit less than Ford's 16 Ev's. So I ask again, what exactly are Ford doing that is too little and too late?


Oh and Nissan has it's own sole battery supplier in the UK. They can only produce 30k batteries a year but Nissan require 40k per year and will have to import the rest of the batteries will have to be imported. This is probably part of the reason for the recent 6% price increase on the Leaf even though increased demand should have seen the prices falling.

 

[wyx087]

*goes on Ford UK website*
Oh, none available for sale. Only quoting:
NEW FORD TRANSIT CUSTOM PHEV
NEW MONDEO
NEW FORD TOURNEO CUSTOM PHEV
NEW FORD KUGA
Where is this 16 you are talking about? Similarly, VW also said they'll have 27 EV's in the future, but at very least they have 2 for sale now.

Ford: "EV is coming, in the future, any time now, please keep on waiting. Why not choose from our polluting car in the meantime."
(But our bank balance is very good, look at our wealth we have accumulated by only spending a token amount on EV research)

EV doesn't need the range, the bigger battery EV's are very wasteful, transporting large masses of battery around, while most of the time only use a fraction of its range. It is infrastructure investment that is needed, I've yet to see a single non-Tesla/Nissan/Renault manufacturer funded charger anywhere in UK.

 

[nilagin]

*goes on Ford UK website*
Oh, none available for sale. Only quoting:
NEW FORD TRANSIT CUSTOM PHEV
NEW MONDEO
NEW FORD TOURNEO CUSTOM PHEV
NEW FORD KUGA
Where is this 16 you are talking about? Similarly, VW also said they'll have 27 EV's in the future, but at very least they have 2 for sale now.

Ford: "EV is coming, in the future, any time now, please keep on waiting. Why not choose from our polluting car in the meantime."
(But our bank balance is very good, look at our wealth we have accumulated by only spending a token amount on EV research)

EV doesn't need the range, the bigger battery EV's are very wasteful, transporting large masses of battery around, while most of the time only use a fraction of its range. It is infrastructure investment that is needed, I've yet to see a single non-Tesla/Nissan/Renault manufacturer funded charger anywhere in UK.

You keep asking the same dumb questions and the answers have been given countless times.
Your actual knowledge of current vehicle emissions is pathetic hence your dumb comments on the subject. All current ice engined cars are far cleaner than your diesel Skoda which probably falls into the VW Deiselgate era.
Having a healthy bank balance means they will be around for years to come relying on their own infrastructure and wealth to provide transport and jobs for the future. As opposed to hanging on by your finger tips, having to seek investment each time you want to bring out a new model or hope that the pre-order deposits are in large enough numbers to keep the company ticking over whilst they poor more money down the drain.
If Tesla are so great and innovative, why haven't they brought out an affordable EV for the masses? Why are they still using old heavy dangerous battery technology? Why are they still making heavy losses?
As for heavy batteries comment, as I mentioned before Tesla are still using old body materials and production methods in their cars, if they actually caught up with the times they could easily offset the battery weight.
Just goes to show you are easily hoodwinked by the Tesla being an innovative company bull that clueless people like to spout.
Tesla have simply come up with their own versions of things other manufacturers have had for years before, most are just gimmicks and not needed, but there just to impress the gullible.


With regards to Ford backed charging stations in the UK, the first opens this month (may be open already) on the M20, followed by another 50 over the next 18 months. As only VW out of the group of manufacturers involved are the only ones with an EV currently on sale it would have been pointless in supplying them earlier especially with so few Ev's on the road anyway.

When Tesla first started selling cars they had to rely on existing charging network before they got their own, why was it ok for them to do that? yet you take a dim view of others doing the same?

 

[PaulF]

Let's look at figures: $23 million, £100 million. They are a far cry from $11 billion they promised to spend last year, a small portion compared to $500 million they gave Rivian this year. In comparison, how much was spent on ICE development back then, in the same year?

The truth is far from black and white, while Ford does do EV development, but it had not done it in earnest with a goal to lead the industry away from fossil fuel. No manufacturer did until Dieselgate. Now, VW appears to be pushing EV as their next big thing.


Same can be said for you. I have never made the incorrect statement as you claimed. You claim I am suggesting Ford never did EV development prior. Whereas I am assessing a company from its products: no Ford EV can be found on Autotrader, only recently a mostly hybrid vehicles announcement. Too little too late for Ford.

Nope, I didn't state that you said that "Ford never did EV development" I said that you keep stating that Ford are late to the EV party, too little too late in your words in reply.

Some nice figures to look at there, aren't they lovely. Would you care to show the source on those please.

The investment in ICE development is a little irrelevant don't you think as like it or not all but a few people wanted to purchase ICE vehicles back then hence Ford only sold around 1000 of it's Think City car in 1999, the Ranger EV went to government departments as no regular customer wanted an electric pickup truck at the time.

There are always a few ways to interpret things. You see Fords EV history as too little, pricing cars too high (so as not to have to produce them) and basically not good enough, please correct me if I'm reading that incorrectly but you do seem to jump on Ford at any opportunity.

An alternative interpretation could be that Ford developed EV's in the past that they saw as not sustainable and basically customers did not want to buy for whatever reason, so, rather than ploughing more cash into what would appear, at the time 1960-2000, to be a fruitless venture chose to back out til the market was right.
Further, there would be nothing wrong in some peoples view for a company as large as Ford to invest in the smaller more specialised companies who really have the expertise in developing EV's (Rivian for example) to form a partnership. Ford provide the mass production experience while the EV company provides the tech. Why is that not a good thing or is it just not enough in your view?

Maybe Tesla should have entered a partnership in the first place instead of going it alone, assuming they didn't try to set up a partnership that is.

 

[nilagin]

Maybe Tesla should have entered a partnership in the first place instead of going it alone, assuming they didn't try to set up a partnership that is.

That would have been the most logical thing to do, especially as their first cars were basically a Lotus Elise.
But they decided for whatever reason to build their own cars and then struggle with production at the outset on each and everyone so far. The only collaboration I am aware of is with Panasonic for the batteries.
The way I see it, if Tesla had got an existing car manufacturer involved, we would be seeing more affordable EV cars instead of their overpriced cars full of pointless gimmicks.

 

[nilagin]

If every car in Europe suddenly became electric...........
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...s-would-cut-co2-emissions-by-only-04-per-cent

 

[whyone]

...10k blind for what is essentially a golf, is incredible.

I don't think so.

Admittedly details / spec's for the ID are scant, but it'll be rather more than a Golf having being designed from scratch as an EV. The suggestion is it'll have the footprint of a Golf but Passat interior space.

It is really not that onerous to place a deposit - £750, refundable without question at any time. So other than a few pence building society interest what do people looking to buy an EV over the next 12 months have to loose?

 

[broc]

When Ford, VW, and a host of other brands get their act together and start selling affordable EVs, at least they will have dealer networks in place to support their customers. Tesla's dealer network is a joke in the UK......

As things stand, the charging infrastructure in most of the UK is inadequate for the range that current EVs have to offer. The lack of on-street charging in many of our older cities is going to be an issue for many years to come.

I would like to see more investment into research & development of Hydrogen (& Hydrogen fuel cell) powered vehicles.

 

[gman]

Does anyone have any thoughts on some of the new tech coming out which is supposed to bring NOx levels right down to very low numbers? I think Bosch is coming out with something and there's another development in the pipeline in one of our universities? Could this turn diesel around or at the least prolong it considerably?

 

[nilagin]

Does anyone have any thoughts on some of the new tech coming out which is supposed to bring NOx levels right down to very low numbers? I think Bosch is coming out with something and there's another development in the pipeline in one of our universities? Could this turn diesel around or at the least prolong it considerably?

It would if it wasn't for the scaremongering. Recent real world tests have shown on latest diesels that not only are Nox levels way below the Euro 7 limits yet to be implemented, but some are practically at Zero already. From what I remember seeing recently a new Land Rover diesel was even lower than a Clio diesel.

 

[gerry s]

I would like to see more investment into research & development of Hydrogen (& Hydrogen fuel cell) powered vehicles.

I think hydrogen will be our friend. As a replacement heat source as well as vehicle power.

 

[neil_g]

Might contain swears? Cant make it out on mobile and can't break the embed

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hCv_Ha0oWjE


Least you could do your laundry in the boot?

 

[nilagin]

Might contain swears? Cant make it out on mobile and can't break the embed

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hCv_Ha0oWjE


Least you could do your laundry in the boot?

That is a very poor design. When Ford introduced the Mk4 Mondeo in 2007 any standing water on the tailgate would roll towards the small channel at the bottom of the rear window and fall into the boot when opened. Ford retro fitted small reflectors to either side of the tailgate, ensuring any water was then directed into drainage trough on either side of the boot opening.
Other than a complete new panel incorporating a wider trough, I can't see the problem on the Tesla being easily overcome.
I must admit, from the car's shape I had assumed it was a hatchback not a 4dr saloon.

 

[wyx087]

Your actual knowledge of current vehicle emissions is pathetic hence your dumb comments on the subject. All current ice engined cars are far cleaner than your diesel Skoda which probably falls into the VW Deiselgate era.

It would if it wasn't for the scaremongering. Recent real world tests have shown on latest diesels that not only are Nox levels way below the Euro 7 limits yet to be implemented, but some are practically at Zero already.

Typical view of a car manufacturer isn't it?
"Buy our latest vehicle, it's cleanest ever. Forget we have been selling £30,000 worth of supposedly assets a few years ago that are now deemed too dirty. Spend more money on us, and then again in 3 years time please."

If Tesla are so great and innovative, why haven't they brought out an affordable EV for the masses? Why are they still using old heavy dangerous battery technology?

Affordable EV is already here, Model S is very affordable when compared to same performance E-class/5-series standards. Model X is very affordable when compared to cars in the same class and performance. Same story for Model 3.
Any source on the dangerous battery other than a few anecdotal story and FUD generator?

With regards to Ford backed charging stations in the UK, the first opens this month (may be open already) on the M20, followed by another 50 over the next 18 months. As only VW out of the group of manufacturers involved are the only ones with an EV currently on sale it would have been pointless in supplying them earlier especially with so few Ev's on the road anyway.

I'll await with interest for the next 50. But how many chargers per location is the important question. Tesla stations are now 6 chargers per location minimum.
Pointless to supply charging infrastructure before the cars being produced? How naïve. So, only as more cars are purchased, more charger is installed. Then, in 3 years time, the ICE car company (doesn't have to be Ford) can turn around and say "there's not much demand in our EV"

When Tesla first started selling cars they had to rely on existing charging network before they got their own, why was it ok for them to do that? yet you take a dim view of others doing the same?

Model 3 uses the standard CCS DC quick charge rather than Tesla's special supercharger plug. Without Model 3 on the road today in UK, majority of supercharger locations have been upgraded to support CCS charging. Charger comes before the cars.

 

[wyx087]

Nope, I didn't state that you said that "Ford never did EV development" I said that you keep stating that Ford are late to the EV party, too little too late in your words in reply.

Some nice figures to look at there, aren't they lovely. Would you care to show the source on those please.

The investment in ICE development is a little irrelevant don't you think as like it or not all but a few people wanted to purchase ICE vehicles back then hence Ford only sold around 1000 of it's Think City car in 1999, the Ranger EV went to government departments as no regular customer wanted an electric pickup truck at the time.

There are always a few ways to interpret things. You see Fords EV history as too little, pricing cars too high (so as not to have to produce them) and basically not good enough, please correct me if I'm reading that incorrectly but you do seem to jump on Ford at any opportunity.

The figures came from your post, source is in your own post.

I only jump on Ford because we have a Ford employee here that is waaay too keen to defend (and promote) the company, a company who are slow to the market with EV's. Evidence is clear, there are no Ford EV for sale in UK right now, there are less Ford EV promised than competitor in the future. Only time will tell if their late-follow have an effect on their bank balance. Hence my feeling that Ford are doing too little too late.

Speaking of Ford competitor. Battery production is key, as I've said many times, VW investments in battery cell production facility:
https://www.speakev.com/threads/vw-to-build-battery-cells.139132/

If every car in Europe suddenly became electric...........
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...s-would-cut-co2-emissions-by-only-04-per-cent

It's FUD. They start from "The EU produces only 10% of global CO2 emissions" - so deliberately ignoring the rest of the world. It's the typical "why make any changes when China/USA/India can swamp any improvements we make without even trying" argument.

As things stand, the charging infrastructure in most of the UK is inadequate for the range that current EVs have to offer. The lack of on-street charging in many of our older cities is going to be an issue for many years to come.

Indeed, unless you have home charging, owning EV becomes a burden due to totally inadequate public charging. The public would not adopt EV en-mass unless charging infrastructure is installed, highly visible and ready to be used.

 

[nilagin]

Typical view of a car manufacturer isn't it?
"Buy our latest vehicle, it's cleanest ever. Forget we have been selling £30,000 worth of supposedly assets a few years ago that are now deemed too dirty. Spend more money on us, and then again in 3 years time please."


Affordable EV is already here, Model S is very affordable when compared to same performance E-class/5-series standards. Model X is very affordable when compared to cars in the same class and performance. Same story for Model 3.
Any source on the dangerous battery other than a few anecdotal story and FUD generator?


I'll await with interest for the next 50. But how many chargers per location is the important question. Tesla stations are now 6 chargers per location minimum.
Pointless to supply charging infrastructure before the cars being produced? How naïve. So, only as more cars are purchased, more charger is installed. Then, in 3 years time, the ICE car company (doesn't have to be Ford) can turn around and say "there's not much demand in our EV"


Model 3 uses the standard CCS DC quick charge rather than Tesla's special supercharger plug. Without Model 3 on the road today in UK, majority of supercharger locations have been upgraded to support CCS charging. Charger comes before the cars.

You are seriously deluded if you think an £80k+ car is classified as affordable. Using 2017 data the average price paid for a new small car was around £11.5k, a medium sized family hatchback was around £18k, a small SUV, £21.5k. Those are what is known as affordable prices and the region of prices that people should be paying, even if an EV version of a car was in the next price bracket, the vast majority of the car buying public would be in a much better position to afford a new EV. Even Tesla failed with the Model 3 wasting time adding pointless gimmicks when they could have supplied a car that the masses could have afforded.
There are plenty of valid sources, as you well know, about lithium batteries and that the liquid in them is highly flammable. Solid state batteries don't contain the liquid are lighter and recent developments are making them smaller, lighter and larger capacity than lithium battery cells.
You say it is naive to introduce Ev's before installing a charging infrastructure but I repeat, that is exactly what Tesla did when they first went into production? they relied on people charging at home or made use of whatever infrastructure already existed.
How many Ev's do you think would be on the road if it wasn't for ice manufacturers? I will tell you not many. Smaller family sized ev's are sold at a loss by the manufacturers and subsidised by the profits they make on their ice vehicle range. Tesla continue to make a loss on their overpriced range and have no means to subsidise themselves.
I have never defended Ford in any of my posts. If you actually read the posts with a modicum of understanding, I am merely just debunking the claims that you come up with. But as a retort because you are now backed into a corner you try to twist things around and use it against me.
Perhaps if you and Tesla had an inkling of how a car manufacturer operates and what is indeed meant by affordable, neither of you wouldn't be sounding and acting so ridiculously right now.

 

[wyx087]

Ok, let us never mention Ford again in this thread, unless it's outside news source. (eg. the plug-in hybrid announcement)

But as a retort because you are now backed into a corner you try to twist things around and use it against me.

I tried to twist thing?

Talk about hypocrisy, Mr Spin Doctor

As for your 10k VW pre orders in 24hrs. Seeing as only 30k cars will be produced with capped free recharging for initial buyers, it was bound to raise a false impression of mass interest, especially with the base vehicle priced at under €30k. Obviously a price they can't sustain otherwise why limit the production run?

Compared to Tesla's 232k preorders in 24hrs for the Model 3 in 2016 it looks like demand is falling.

Just after Model 3's will be delivered for anyone ordering since last week. They have to work their way through the people who had already pre ordered yet.

Just from last 2 pages.

There are plenty of valid sources, as you well know, about lithium batteries and that the liquid in them is highly flammable. Solid state batteries don't contain the liquid are lighter and recent developments are making them smaller, lighter and larger capacity than lithium battery cells.

So, what do you suggest people do right now, if they find current EV is suitable for them?
Continue to pollute the streets in an ICE car while carrying a highly flammable liquid in the fuel tank?
Or buy an existing EV using exiting Li battery technology, with extremely low risk of battery busting into flames. Zero local emission on the roads and much cheaper running cost.

If only there's a lot of EV choices from all manufacturers.............

 

[nilagin]

Ok, let us never mention Ford again in this thread, unless it's outside news source. (eg. the plug-in hybrid announcement)


I tried to twist thing?

Talk about hypocrisy, Mr Spin Doctor



Just from last 2 pages.


So, what do you suggest people do right now, if they find current EV is suitable for them?
Continue to pollute the streets in an ICE car while carrying a highly flammable liquid in the fuel tank?
Or buy an existing EV using exiting Li battery technology, with extremely low risk of battery busting into flames. Zero local emission on the roads and much cheaper running cost.

If only there's a lot of EV choices from all manufacturers.............

That isn't twisting anything. It is hardly my fault if you have been blinded so much by the hype that you can't see things for what they really are without a little thought.
You make it sound like there won't be electric vehicles from all manufacturers. You are too fixated on the here and now whilst manufacturers are busy developing something worthwhile instead of just providing an uneconomical stop gap.
If an EV is suitable right now, by all means buy an EV. The fact that you still run a diesel car alongside goes to show that for a lot of people an EV isn't a viable option especially if they can afford just one car.

As I keep pointing out modern ice engines produce very little pollution, there are probably things you and other people doing in everyday life that produce emissions, but they don't matter because you drive an EV.

You still keep harping on about cheaper running costs but still burying your head in the sand to the higher initial costs and the amount of time it takes to even reach a break even point and before you are actually saving money.
You bought a 2nd hand ev at a time when they suffered higher depreciation than most cars, so you got it cheap and have been able to reap the benefits. The original owner of your car probably never saw those benefits. As more 2nd hand Ev's come to market with better range than your leaf, the value of your car will become less of an attractive proposition for future buyers.

 

[dod]

So, what do you suggest people do right now, if they find current EV is suitable for them?

If they're happy to and can afford to, buy one. If they're not, buy whatever it is they want.

Continue to pollute the streets in an ICE car while carrying a highly flammable liquid in the fuel tank?
Or buy an existing EV using exiting Li battery technology, with extremely low risk of battery busting into flames. Zero local emission on the roads and much cheaper running cost.

Get real, how much of a real risk is there of petrol tanks exploding. Scaremongering at its' finest. (In fairness you're responding to another scaremongering reply!)

If only there's a lot of EV choices from all manufacturers.............

Agreed. But until there is not everyone is going to want one. Right now I could probably do 80% of my travels in an electric car but there's not one I really like the look of or is affordable with the practicality I need. I'm not going to p*** about renting for the times I can't use it so there we go. What do you suggest?

 

[wyx087]

Get real, how much of a real risk is there of petrol tanks exploding. Scaremongering at its' finest. (In fairness you're responding to another scaremongering reply!)

As they say, fight fire with fire

Agreed. But until there is not everyone is going to want one. Right now I could probably do 80% of my travels in an electric car but there's not one I really like the look of or is affordable with the practicality I need. I'm not going to p*** about renting for the times I can't use it so there we go. What do you suggest?

This is where the lack of choice on offer is really depressing. They are either built too ugly, not practical (no estate option) or too expensive. Right now, I have nothing to suggest, other than perhaps being a keyboard warrior and blame the manufacturers

You make it sound like there won't be electric vehicles from all manufacturers. You are too fixated on the here and now whilst manufacturers are busy developing something worthwhile instead of just providing an uneconomical stop gap.

You say EV must be worth well to be put onto the market, but remember how ICE cars were already on road when it could hardly do 100 miles? This is where AA rated hotels and Michelin started restaurants came from. Just because EV is in its infancy, doesn't mean there aren't eager early adopters if they are made available and infrastructure get invested.

You can't just blaming the demand, whilst not investing in infrastructure and not making the effort to advertise/market it.

there are probably things you and other people doing in everyday life that produce emissions, but they don't matter because you drive an EV.

Isn't the diesel engine pollution the topic of this thread? What are you trying to twist into now? Cycling? Recycling?

If an EV is suitable right now, by all means buy an EV. The fact that you still run a diesel car alongside goes to show that for a lot of people an EV isn't a viable option especially if they can afford just one car.

You still keep harping on about cheaper running costs but still burying your head in the sand to the higher initial costs and the amount of time it takes to even reach a break even point and before you are actually saving money.

Affordability is complex and different for everyone.
But in my case, the EV made it affordable to own two cars. Both cost the similar to purchase, while EV is newer with less miles on the clock. I would not have been able to afford two £9000 car if both of them were fossil fuelled, if I had to spend £6 per day on commuting fuel, rather than less than £2 per day.

The total cost of ownership (running cost + purchasing cost) thing had been discussed many times in this thread, buying new EV today is currently costing similar to own compared to similar spec'd ICE car. No one else but you are burying head in sand with regard to this.

The original owner of your car probably never saw those benefits. As more 2nd hand Ev's come to market with better range than your leaf, the value of your car will become less of an attractive proposition for future buyers.

More twist and turns, with a sparkle of scaremongering

Back in 2015-2017, you can get a Nissan Leaf on lease for £199. Just search on hotukdeals. There is always market for budget cars, as more second hand longer range EV come to market, with more and more people understand their daily mileage needs. There will always be people see the value of a local runabout.

 

[nilagin]

As they say, fight fire with fire


This is where the lack of choice on offer is really depressing. They are either built too ugly, not practical (no estate option) or too expensive. Right now, I have nothing to suggest, other than perhaps being a keyboard warrior and blame the manufacturers


You say EV must be worth well to be put onto the market, but remember how ICE cars were already on road when it could hardly do 100 miles? This is where AA rated hotels and Michelin started restaurants came from. Just because EV is in its infancy, doesn't mean there aren't eager early adopters if they are made available and infrastructure get invested.

You can't just blaming the demand, whilst not investing in infrastructure and not making the effort to advertise/market it.


Isn't the diesel engine pollution the topic of this thread? What are you trying to twist into now? Cycling? Recycling?


Affordability is complex and different for everyone.
But in my case, the EV made it affordable to own two cars. Both cost the similar to purchase, while EV is newer with less miles on the clock. I would not have been able to afford two £9000 car if both of them were fossil fuelled, if I had to spend £6 per day on commuting fuel, rather than less than £2 per day.

The total cost of ownership (running cost + purchasing cost) thing had been discussed many times in this thread, buying new EV today is currently costing similar to own compared to similar spec'd ICE car. No one else but you are burying head in sand with regard to this.


More twist and turns, with a sparkle of scaremongering

Back in 2015-2017, you can get a Nissan Leaf on lease for £199. Just search on hotukdeals. There is always market for budget cars, as more second hand longer range EV come to market, with more and more people understand their daily mileage needs. There will always be people see the value of a local runabout.

I think you really ought to stop and try researching the automobile. Electric powered cars were around before they were powered by ice. Electric cars had a range of approximately 50 miles on a full charge and a top speed of 20mph which suited them fine in towns and cities. But the ice cars when they were introduced offered a better range and the electric car soon became obsolete. Step forward quite a few decades and electric cars reappeared. For some top speed had increased but range hadn't improved much any the reintroduction of electric vehicles flopped. Move forward a few more decades and it has been reintroduced again, slight improvement again in range but it is only in the last few years were range has started to approach that of an ICE powered car and make them considerably more practical for more people instead of them being just a town or city car.
Yes the diesel engine is the subject of this thread, but just like the originator of the thread, you are of the misconception that the latest diesel engines produce high or even moderate amounts of pollution, when in fact they are quite low.
The weather is improving and soon barbeque season will start. Barbeques create Nox.

No twists and turns or scaremongering at all, just knowledge of how the car market works. Your Leaf is first generation with low range, when you bought it 2nd hand range hadn't increased by much on new cars, but now it has and those vehicles will be appearing on the 2nd hand market meaning at some point your car becomes only a viable option for fewer people as those on a budget will be wanting better range which will give them greater flexibility of use.

Not really sure how or why you feel Michelin or AA restaurants have any bearing on electric or ice vehicles.

Can't find any current hot UK deals for Nissan Leaf but using Google I found quotes for a Leaf at £2995 deposit and £333 a month to lease where as a similar size ice medium sized family hatchback was £1575 and £175 a month both from same lease company.
The cheapest Leaf deal I could find was £3187 deposit and £245 per month. None of those Leaf quotes even come close to what can be had with the ice option.

 

[PaulF]

As they say, fight fire with fire
*snip*
Isn't the diesel engine pollution the topic of this thread? What are you trying to twist into now? Cycling? Recycling?

*snip*
The total cost of ownership (running cost + purchasing cost) thing had been discussed many times in this thread, buying new EV today is currently costing similar to own compared to similar spec'd ICE car. No one else but you are burying head in sand with regard to this.


More twist and turns, with a sparkle of scaremongering

Back in 2015-2017, you can get a Nissan Leaf on lease for £199. Just search on hotukdeals. There is always market for budget cars, as more second hand longer range EV come to market, with more and more people understand their daily mileage needs. There will always be people see the value of a local runabout.

Diesel does not catch fire, petrol on the other hand does, spectacularly

Total cost of ownership - don't think you're quite correct about that comparison unless you are factoring a long period of ownership or lot of miles per year. What's the average length of time for car ownership? Genuine question, I don't know. It may compare better in the second hand market where the initial depreciation has taken place.

Ref the last bit regarding market for budget cars, you are missing the point a little. I'll use generic values to try to demonstrate:
Lets say your Leaf is worth £5k as a used EV, when more " second hand longer range EV come to market" your Leaf is going to drop in value because if I can buy your Leaf for £5k or I can buy a longer range EV for similar cost, why would I buy the Leaf? Unless it is significantly cheaper it's not going to sell. That's the point @nilagin was trying to make.
Or are you suggesting that no matter how many second hand EV's are available they will always hold a certain value and not be subject to market forces?

 

[MatBin]

But in my case, the EV made it affordable to own two cars. Both cost the similar to purchase, while EV is newer with less miles on the clock. I would not have been able to afford two £9000 car if both of them were fossil fuelled, if I had to spend £6 per day on commuting fuel, rather than less than £2 per day.

The total cost of ownership (running cost + purchasing cost) thing had been discussed many times in this thread, buying new EV today is currently costing similar to own compared to similar spec'd ICE car. No one else but you are burying head in sand with regard to this.

I'm sorry but in several replies you have stated it's cheaper to run an EV, it isn't and you have also stated that too (in a reply to me), so which is it cheaper or not, you cant have it both ways.
Comparing the total lifetime cost of a new EV to a new ICE of similar type, performance, quality etc (although as far as am aware 3 series BMW don't leak into their boots when the lid is raised, so similar quality to a 3 series BM, maybe not) has been stated by you to be similar and the only justification is to buy because of roadside pollution (which is admirable but doesn't negate the total cost of ownership), again stated by you.
Your EV might be cheaper to run but are you comparing lifetime costs against a similar vehicle, probably not.

Fact is any EV is not cheaper in terms of lifetime ownership against a similar ICE vehicle, you cannot justify an EV on financial terms alone.

As for Tesla being affordable I think you suffer much like politicians, not everyone earns a London salary or has disposable income like Londoners, for some one car is all they can afford and a cheap one at that i.e. less than £20K new, so most (all?) new EV are outside of their budget which is why ICE still works for most people. Not everyone wants a car on PCP so don't quote monthly "purchase" price either as making them affordable.

Fact is new EV aren't affordable to the masses and until they are it is one of a number of factors which will slow their adoption as mass individual/family transport.

 

[Byker28i]

Speaking of Ford competitor. Battery production is key, as I've said many times, VW investments in battery cell production facility:
https://www.speakev.com/threads/vw-to-build-battery-cells.139132/

I know you don't like Nilagen, but at least use verifiable stats Fords put huge investment into EV and battery tech and have been doing so for some considerable time, but haven't rushed to bring a car to market yet. One does wonder if thats because they are US based (long distances) rather than Europe based, so the cars haven't been attractive/suitable until technology has caught up.

However, they have a huge factory in Cuautitlán, Mexico, thats goign to produce their electric SUV, another in Flat Rock, Michigan, $500 million in Rivian...
and if you want the 100 year history of ford making limited EV cars...
https://insideevs.com/features/342330/ford-electric-cars-past-present-and-future/

 

[Byker28i]

I'll await with interest for the next 50. But how many chargers per location is the important question. Tesla stations are now 6 chargers per location minimum.

Interesting, Is that supercharges only, as their map lists 7Kw Tesla Connectors in ones and twos. I.e. Near me Membury services have 8 every side, but thats 15 miles in the wrong direction, the next super charger on route to south wales is at the services at Bridgend, another 8 there. Other than that it's single or dual 7Kw

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bo...tore,service,supercharger,destination charger

Infrastructure is everything to encourage EV takeup, as is lower cost, otherwise we'll be stuck with EV's being suitable for small journeys only, for those with driveways and/or large pockets