Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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unless you bought a Vauxhall with lifetime warranty (actuall it's only 100K without time limit) up until 2014 anyway.

To be fair most cars do 100K without significant trouble, one of my Focuses needed new wheel bearing, the other nothing went wrong during the time I had it, the first did over a 100K, the second over 90K, so I doubt very much if offered with 100K warranty most ICE manufacturer's woud suffer financially.
Kia, Mazda and MG offer 7 years warranty, BMW 3 years unlimited mileage. Those warranties are on the WHOLE car not just the drivetrain. So its not just Tesla that offer a long warranty, please do check your facts before posting, then again you have had that pointed out in several posts but still you continue to post half truths.
My comment WRT drivetrain warranty is not about Tesla. Please read more carefully.

ALL currently on sale EV get 8 years drivetrain warranty, whereas as you have pointed out, only some ICE drivetrain get up to 7 years, majority are offered at 3 years.

You don't have to defend your calculations, equally I don't have to agree with them. You mentioned somewhere that Tesla should be able to reach 3p per mile in everyday use, Fleet News have the Tesla model S at 5.17ppm for 'fuel'.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/car-run...&SortBy=Manufacturer&SortDesc=False&FuelType=
and BMW 5 series is at 15.97p. 10p price difference, more than what I have calculated.
 
PaulF said:
You don't have to defend your calculations, equally I don't have to agree with them. You mentioned somewhere that Tesla should be able to reach 3p per mile in everyday use, Fleet News have the Tesla model S at 5.17ppm for 'fuel'.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/car-run...&SortBy=Manufacturer&SortDesc=False&FuelType=

My comment WRT drivetrain warranty is not about Tesla. Please read more carefully.

ALL currently on sale EV get 8 years drivetrain warranty, whereas as you have pointed out, only some ICE drivetrain get up to 7 years, majority are offered at 3 years.


and BMW 5 series is at 15.97p. 10p price difference, more than what I have calculated.

The point was you tend to post incorrect figures with no source provided expecting everyone to just accept them as fact, which I don't (accept them as fact).
Case in point in your reply ref BMW 5 series above, where is the source? which model etc.

Your reply to MatBin also misses the point of his post. You said "But EV drivetrain on all current cars are warrantied for 8 years. Whereas no ICE get this level of warranty ." MatBin just pointed out your statement is incorrect with regard to 'no ICE'.

By the way your statement of ALL EV's isn't correct either:
Nissan Leaf Powertrain is 60 months or 60,000 miles whichever comes sooner, the 24kwh battery is also only 5 years or 60,000 miles. The 30kwh and 40kwh are 8 years or 100,000 miles.
Source: https://www.nissan.co.uk/ownership/nissan-car-warranties.html

I'll state again, I'm not against EV's, I'm hoping to persuade my wife her next car should be an EV (her current mileage would suit an EV) but whenever I have pointed out an EV to her on the road her response has been, 'no, it's ugly' so I may be fighting a losing battle. She wants a small car, so the Leaf, Zoe and the i3 have all been dismissed as ugly so far.
 
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Case in point in your reply ref BMW 5 series above, where is the source? which model etc.
Overall cost of ownership per mile is a far better guide to the economics of a car. I keep a simple spreadsheet with all costs as an input to a mileage record so I know that my current car (at 11,780 miles) has so far cost me £1.18 per mile. This bottom line figure changes with the age and mileage of the car so while it's more accurate you do need a large sample to tell you how accurate it's likely to be for an average istance of a particular model.

There are various versions of this calculation available on line such as http://artofbeingcheap.com/calculator/
 
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Overall cost of ownership per mile is a far better guide to the economics of a car. I keep a simple spreadsheet with all costs as an input to a mileage record so I know that my current car (at 11,780 miles) has so far cost me £1.18 per mile. This bottom line figure changes with the age and mileage of the car so while it's more accurate you do need a large sample to tell you how accurate it's likely to be for an average istance of a particular model.

There are various versions of this calculation available on line such as http://artofbeingcheap.com/calculator/

I'd agree the overall cost per mile is a better way of seeing the true cost but the point was that the main EV supporter/contributor to this thread basically posts whatever he thinks is right or supports his point without actually checking and then seems not to keen when someone points out he has posted rubbish. This is not helping the discussion.
 
But EV drivetrain on all current cars are warrantied for 8 years. Whereas no ICE get this level of warranty. Does that tell us something regarding manufacturer's confidence in its reliability?


No they're not. Nissan and Renault are no where new 8 years for the powertrain, they are the only ones I have checked, which in itself is more than you checked obviously.
https://www.nissan.co.uk/ownership/nissan-car-warranties.html
https://www.renault.co.uk/content/d...l/Aftersales/Renault_ZE_Warranty_T-and-cs.pdf
 
I'll state again, I'm not against EV's, I'm hoping to persuade my wife her next car should be an EV (her current mileage would suit an EV) but whenever I have pointed out an EV to her ] the road her response has been, 'no, it's ugly' so I may be fighting a losing battle. She wants a small car, so the Leaf, Zoe and the i3 have all been dismissed as ugly so far.

By current mileage, if you mean local journeys and annual mileage is low, don't forget it will take along time to get back the extra cost for a new EV compared to a similar sized ice car.
My sister in law has just renewed her car. She had a Leaf on lease, the idea being not have to buy fuel, but her annual mileage being so low didn't make it worthwhile. She has a similar sized petrol car on lease and her no they cost is cheaper as well as the lower deposit.
 
Her mileage is low, she would keep the car for a long time and would not be buying new.
All provided we could find one she likes the look of which is her priority :)
 
The point was you tend to post incorrect figures with no source provided expecting everyone to just accept them as fact, which I don't (accept them as fact).
Case in point in your reply ref BMW 5 series above, where is the source? which model etc.
Wow. I post without source provided? I always provided quality sources, you, on the other hand, provide poorly researched sources. (see below)

The 5 series figure came from your fleetnews website. The fuel cost for comparable 540: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/car-run...&SortBy=Manufacturer&SortDesc=False&FuelType=

Your reply to MatBin also misses the point of his post. You said "But EV drivetrain on all current cars are warrantied for 8 years. Whereas no ICE get this level of warranty ." MatBin just pointed out your statement is incorrect with regard to 'no ICE'.
How was my statement incorrect, when MatBin pointed out 3 manufacturers (out of how many in the industry?) offer 7 years. I'm pretty sure 7 years does not equal to 8 years.....

By the way your statement of ALL EV's isn't correct either:
Nissan Leaf Powertrain is 60 months or 60,000 miles whichever comes sooner, the 24kwh battery is also only 5 years or 60,000 miles. The 30kwh and 40kwh are 8 years or 100,000 miles.
Source: https://www.nissan.co.uk/ownership/nissan-car-warranties.html
No they're not. Nissan and Renault are no where new 8 years for the powertrain, they are the only ones I have checked, which in itself is more than you checked obviously.
https://www.nissan.co.uk/ownership/nissan-car-warranties.html
https://www.renault.co.uk/content/d...l/Aftersales/Renault_ZE_Warranty_T-and-cs.pdf
ALL currently on sale EV get 8 years drivetrain warranty, whereas as you have pointed out, only some ICE drivetrain get up to 7 years, majority are offered at 3 years.
Last time I checked, Nissan Leaf 24kWh is no longer on sale by Nissan, current Nissan Leaf is 40kWh and 62kWh (60 something, it's marketed as E+ ). Source is the link you have provided.

For Renault, you seems to have purposefully skipped over first Google answer from document dated 2018 and went for an outdated 2017 document: https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=...ta=&aq=f&aqi=g3g-s1g6&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&cad=h

A very quick google search returned
VW 8 years: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/electric-car-warranty
Kia 10 years: https://www.kia.com/us/en/content/ev-faqs_2016/soul-ev-specifics/warranty

I'll state again, I'm not against EV's, I'm hoping to persuade my wife her next car should be an EV
I'm not doubting you. I don't think anyone is. I welcome people to point out inefficiencies in my reasoning, but it has to be as well researched and backed up with good quality sources.
 
Musk admits Tesla could be out of money in 10 months unless it can make some big changes.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/17/18629166/elon-musk-tesla-money-changes-cfo-employee-expenses
The actual Email sent my Musk was:
Investors nonetheless were supportive of our efforts and agreed to give us $2.4 billion (our net proceeds) to show that we can be financially sustainable.
That is a lot of money, but actually only gives us approximately ten months at the first-quarter burn rate to achieve breakeven. It’s vital that we respect the faith investors have shown in Tesla, but it will require great effort to do so.
Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/17/elon-musk-calls-for-cost-control-in-memo-to-employees.html

A lot of FUD by mass media, but the actual quote shows that the 10 months figure is just a simple calculation to represent the large amount of money investors "gave them" (Email's wording) and why the company need to do more "hardcore" control of their costs. Musk did not, in anyway, allude to "Tesla could be out of money in 10 months unless it can make some big changes."

Tell, do you work for Tesla, we know @nilagin works for Ford he hasn't kept that a secret but your devotion to Tesla in particular and EV in general and quoting Tesla S as an affordable car or Tesla 3 as reasonably priced just makes me wonder where your bias is coming from
I don't work for any automotive company or in the supply chain. I work in defence sector, I'm a charted electronic engineer, specialise in firmware.
No bias other than hope everyone can enjoy the pleasure of driving an EV and I'm sick of breathing exhaust fumes. Despite claimed cleanness of latest engines, the reality is that majority of the cars on the road are not 19 reg, does not have those engines. There are still quite a few 09 or earlier cars on the road.

See below for the reason I say: relative to similar class (size, comfort, performance, etc), Tesla can be considered affordable despite being slightly more expensive to purchase.

Overall cost of ownership per mile is a far better guide to the economics of a car. I keep a simple spreadsheet with all costs as an input to a mileage record so I know that my current car (at 11,780 miles) has so far cost me £1.18 per mile. This bottom line figure changes with the age and mileage of the car so while it's more accurate you do need a large sample to tell you how accurate it's likely to be for an average istance of a particular model.

There are various versions of this calculation available on line such as http://artofbeingcheap.com/calculator/
Indeed, totally agree.

Seems a bit expensive for your car, out of interest, what car do you drive?

My current cars as follow, from my spreadsheet:
Skoda Octavia '63 reg had done 15.3k under my ownership over 2 years. Average per mile cost had been £0.487
Nissan Leaf '64 reg had done 15.5k miles under my ownership over 1.6 years. Average per mile cost had been £0.284
(including everything: my expensive insurance; car purchase price minus estimated resale value for Skoda, PCP payments for Leaf; £30 road tax for Skoda; all consumables, servicing and tyres I've spent; used 10p/kWh for electricity rather than 7.6p I'm currently paying)
 
Wow. I post without source provided? I always provided quality sources, you, on the other hand, provide poorly researched sources. (see below)

The 5 series figure came from your fleetnews website. The fuel cost for comparable 540: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/car-run...&SortBy=Manufacturer&SortDesc=False&FuelType=

But you did not provide that link/source in your reply, just the figure, that was the point.

How was my statement incorrect, when MatBin pointed out 3 manufacturers (out of how many in the industry?) offer 7 years. I'm pretty sure 7 years does not equal to 8 years.....

You are correct, 7 does not equal 8, however, lifetime could equal more than 8 which was what MatBin mentioned for Vauxhall. Now if you went away and checked the Vauxhall warranty and MatBin was not correct then by all means say so and provide the link to back it up.

Last time I checked, Nissan Leaf 24kWh is no longer on sale by Nissan, current Nissan Leaf is 40kWh and 62kWh (60 something, it's marketed as E+ ). Source is the link you have provided.

That's the battery you are referring to there not the powertrain.

For Renault, you seems to have purposefully skipped over first Google answer from document dated 2018 and went for an outdated 2017 document:
I didn't purposely skip the first result in the search I did for Renault Powertrain warranty, I selected the first Renault result. You seem to have searched for battery warranty.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=...ta=&aq=f&aqi=g3g-s1g6&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&cad=h

Again, not the powertrain, which is what you stated that "But EV drivetrain on all current cars are warrantied for 8 years." which they are not on ALL EV's. Unless of course by 'drivetrain' you mean just the battery but that would be a really poor way to describe just the battery surely. As you have posted the link to a search result it is a little ambiguous to determine which result you are referring to but the top one is from Renault dated 2018, is that the one?

It states quite clearly:
Renault Electric Powertrain Warranty All Models 4 Years Unlimited for first 24 months,then limited to a total of 100,000 miles from 25th to 48th month, whichever comes first. Twizy 3 Years Unlimited for first 24 months,then limited to a total of 60,000 miles from 25th to 36th month, whichever comes first.
The formatting has been lost in the cut and paste, it's in a table in the doc:

https://www.renault.co.uk/content/dam/Renault/UK/brand-and-editorial/Aftersales/ZE-warranty-2018.pdf

I'm also pretty sure that 4 does not equal 8 there either........

Try searching for EV Powertrain warranty or Nissan/Renault Powertrain warranty.

A very quick google search returned
VW 8 years: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/electric-car-warranty
That'll be the battery only then for 8 years, the car is 3 years/60,000 miles.

Kia 10 years: https://www.kia.com/us/en/content/ev-faqs_2016/soul-ev-specifics/warranty
Kia do indeed warranty the powertrain for 10 years or 100,000 miles along with the battery. If they end up being amongst the more economical cost of ownership and have the range it's the one I'd go for.

I believe Tesla also warranty the powertrain for 8 years too.

I'm not doubting you. I don't think anyone is. I welcome people to point out inefficiencies in my reasoning, but it has to be as well researched and backed up with good quality sources.
 
The actual Email sent my Musk was:

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/17/elon-musk-calls-for-cost-control-in-memo-to-employees.html

A lot of FUD by mass media, but the actual quote shows that the 10 months figure is just a simple calculation to represent the large amount of money investors "gave them" (Email's wording) and why the company need to do more "hardcore" control of their costs. Musk did not, in anyway, allude to "Tesla could be out of money in 10 months unless it can make some big changes."


I'm sick of breathing exhaust fumes. Despite claimed cleanness of latest engines, the reality is that majority of the cars on the road are not 19 reg, does not have those engines. There are still quite a few 09 or earlier cars on the road.

Is it FUD? Perhaps you really ought to research Tesla's finances. That is $2.4Bn of other people's money. The only money Tesla have or will have is the $2Bn they are to get from Fiat.

Again your knowledge is lacking. Latest emission regulations came into force on September 1st 2018 but there are cars on the road since 2016 that already conformed.
As for anything earlier, it would be a lot cheaper to replace them with an ICE or hybrid than an EV.
 
Wow. I post without source provided? I always provided quality sources, you, on the other hand, provide poorly researched sources.
So it wasn't you that reckoned the 5 Series would have to be specified with air suspension at extra cost, when Tesla have ditched it in favour of Adaptive Suspension? Or it wasn't you that tried to convince us that 2-3yrs ago a Leaf lease plan and running costs was similar to a similar sized EV and then came up with a wildly inaccurate monthly fuel cost and then admit you hadn't even bothered checking that both lease plans were for identical mileage etc.
 
Hum.... you are right, I was too hasty in my comment. It was 5 years warranty for drivetrain on my Leaf, so when I heard 30kWh or more has upgraded to 8 years, I thought it applies to both battery and drivetrain. I stand corrected. Thank you.
So: ALL EV battery on new cars on sale now has 8 years or more warranty, drivetrain differs greatly across manufacturers.

But we can do a comparison via a good old list:

Looks like some manufacturers are willing to offer more EV drivetrain warranty than ICE counterparts, never less (happy to be proven wrong). With 8 years for the battery as industry standard.

Again your knowledge is lacking. Latest emission regulations came into force on September 1st 2018 but there are cars on the road since 2016 that already conformed.
As for anything earlier, it would be a lot cheaper to replace them with an ICE or hybrid than an EV.
Do tell me, what is the percentage of all passenger cars in Britain that has been officially classed as meeting the latest September 2018 emission regulation?
ICE cars generally last 10 years or more. Seeing the Euro 5 cars (which had been on sale until 2015?) off the road will take many more years. Whereas EV has zero local emission, the oldest EV will receive the same percentage of emission reduction as the newest EV because the reduction is applied at the grid production level.

In terms of cost. Show me a non-Toyota/Honda hybrid that is financially viable as a replacement for a £1000 car. Something in £3000 range. I can't find any petrol hybrid even at £9000, by then, you can get a Nissan Leaf EV. Looks like there's a lack of choice, not only for EV, but also for old hybrids..........
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-se...archad=New&fuel-type=Hybrid – Petrol/Electric

So it wasn't you that reckoned the 5 Series would have to be specified with air suspension at extra cost, when Tesla have ditched it in favour of Adaptive Suspension? Or it wasn't you that tried to convince us that 2-3yrs ago a Leaf lease plan and running costs was similar to a similar sized EV and then came up with a wildly inaccurate monthly fuel cost and then admit you hadn't even bothered checking that both lease plans were for identical mileage etc.
Two minor mistakes that doesn't change their respective points. Whereas all you've done is post FUD from mass media on Tesla, hoping the disruptor would go away.
 
Hum.... you are right, I was too hasty in my comment. It was 5 years warranty for drivetrain on my Leaf, so when I heard 30kWh or more has upgraded to 8 years, I thought it applies to both battery and drivetrain. I stand corrected. Thank you.
So: ALL EV battery on new cars on sale now has 8 years or more warranty, drivetrain differs greatly across manufacturers.

But we can do a comparison via a good old list:

Looks like some manufacturers are willing to offer more EV drivetrain warranty than ICE counterparts, never less (happy to be proven wrong). With 8 years for the battery as industry standard.


Do tell me, what is the percentage of all passenger cars in Britain that has been officially classed as meeting the latest September 2018 emission regulation?
ICE cars generally last 10 years or more. Seeing the Euro 5 cars (which had been on sale until 2015?) off the road will take many more years. Whereas EV has zero local emission, the oldest EV will receive the same percentage of emission reduction as the newest EV because the reduction is applied at the grid production level.

In terms of cost. Show me a non-Toyota/Honda hybrid that is financially viable as a replacement for a £1000 car. Something in £3000 range. I can't find any petrol hybrid even at £9000, by then, you can get a Nissan Leaf EV. Looks like there's a lack of choice, not only for EV, but also for old hybrids..........
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?price-to=9000&postcode=al12bx&radius=1500&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&fuel-type=Hybrid – Petrol/Electric


Two minor mistakes that doesn't change their respective points. Whereas all you've done is post FUD from mass media on Tesla, hoping the disruptor would go away.

Why have I got to find hybrids other than Honda and Toyota.? Or are you frightened it will detract from your claim.
Not all 2nd hand vehicles are advertised on AutoTrader.

There will have been cars on sale in 2013 that meet the 2015 updated regulations.
 
Why have I got to find hybrids other than Honda and Toyota.? Or are you frightened it will detract from your claim.
No, I'm just pointing out the lack of choice in cleaner vehicles.
What if you want a supermini for £3000? No choice, only Prius. What if you want an estate for £3000, no choice, only Prius.

To answer your earlier jab at me driving an Euro 5 diesel. It's similar to lack of choice for clean vehicles. I had zero choice. I only wanted two things: adaptive cruise for motorway and a big boot for carrying stuff. Most cars with ACC is £10k or more. There were only 3 with ACC back in 2017, Octavia, Golf or a questionable Mondeo. All of which Euro 5 diesel.
 
No, I'm just pointing out the lack of choice in cleaner vehicles.
What if you want a supermini for £3000? No choice, only Prius. What if you want an estate for £3000, no choice, only Prius.

To answer your earlier jab at me driving an Euro 5 diesel. It's similar to lack of choice for clean vehicles. I had zero choice. I only wanted two things: adaptive cruise for motorway and a big boot for carrying stuff. Most cars with ACC is £10k or more. There were only 3 with ACC back in 2017, Octavia, Golf or a questionable Mondeo. All of which Euro 5 diesel.
But a replacement for an older car doesn't even have to be a hybrid. There is plenty of choice of cleaner ice cars.
As for your earlier post about longer drive train warranty on EV than ice. I repeat you have paid for it in the purchase price, they aren't giving you anything.
 
But a replacement for an older car doesn't even have to be a hybrid. There is plenty of choice of cleaner ice cars.
Okay, show me an ICE that is as clean as the clean diesels you had been banging on about, but is at similar price as a pre-2016 car as you said.
As for anything earlier, it would be a lot cheaper to replace them with an ICE or hybrid than an EV.

The point is, older cars are not as clean as newest ones. This means 2 things: your cleanest new engine in the lab will not have much effect in the real world until many years down the line. When the new engine/emission standard has gained a sizeable market share. Hence I asked the earlier question.
Another thing is that people who are not willing to spend on a fast depreciating asset are constantly at an disadvantage. But people shouldn't be forced to choose one of: compromise the type of car they drive, buying a fast depreciating asset or paying tax due to emissions.
With a step change like EV's, a few years after manufacturers pull their finger out, you will be able to avoid all 3.
Do tell me, what is the percentage of all passenger cars in Britain that has been officially classed as meeting the latest September 2018 emission regulation?
ICE cars generally last 10 years or more. Seeing the Euro 5 cars (which had been on sale until 2015?) off the road will take many more years. Whereas EV has zero local emission, the oldest EV will receive the same percentage of emission reduction as the newest EV because the reduction is applied at the grid production level.


As for your earlier post about longer drive train warranty on EV than ice. I repeat you have paid for it in the purchase price, they aren't giving you anything.
Are you suggesting comparable ICE cars also need to have cost of extended warranty added to its price for a direct comparison to EV's? ;)
 
Okay, show me an ICE that is as clean as the clean diesels you had been banging on about, but is at similar price as a pre-2016 car as you said.


The point is, older cars are not as clean as newest ones. This means 2 things: your cleanest new engine in the lab will not have much effect in the real world until many years down the line. When the new engine/emission standard has gained a sizeable market share. Hence I asked the earlier question.
Another thing is that people who are not willing to spend on a fast depreciating asset are constantly at an disadvantage. But people shouldn't be forced to choose one of: compromise the type of car they drive, buying a fast depreciating asset or paying tax due to emissions.
With a step change like EV's, a few years after manufacturers pull their finger out, you will be able to avoid all 3.




Are you suggesting comparable ICE cars also need to have cost of extended warranty added to its price for a direct comparison to EV's? ;)
Older cars don't have to be as clean as the latest cars. It is natural progression. For those that can't afford one of the newer cars, their older cars get replaced by a cleaner car, owned for a few years then replaced for a cleaner car again.
Your EV will have no real world effect in reducing emissions if people can't afford to buy them and increase their numbers dramatically.

Ev's are pretty much new territory for the vast majority of motorists. They need a carrot to tempt into the unknown. At a point in an ICE vehicles lifespan a lot of DIY servicing and repair takes place or use of independent garages carrying out the work. There isn't any of that for Ev's apart from the general car stuff so a longer warranty is just a sweetener but all factored into the price of the car anyway. Most manufacturers that offer longer than 3yrs are either expensive cars anyway or made in a country with low overheads. As I said I extended my warranty at time of purchase (2017) for £340, a relatively cheap insurance policy.
I have heard that some of the longer standard warranties reduce in terms of what is actually covered as the car gets older.
In some countries, buyers don't even get 3yrs warranty.
 
Government to certify dealerships able to work on EV's:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ealerships-trained-to-work-with-electric-cars

Independent garages are training their staff to work on high voltage parts of the EV. This website (advertises on SpeakEV, there may be others) that offers membership (with tech support) to garages who are able to work on EV's:
http://hevra.org.uk/

Older cars don't have to be as clean as the latest cars. It is natural progression. For those that can't afford one of the newer cars, their older cars get replaced by a cleaner car, owned for a few years then replaced for a cleaner car again.
Your EV will have no real world effect in reducing emissions if people can't afford to buy them and increase their numbers dramatically.
So the older car will take the lifetime of the vehicle to be off the road? We'll see those real-world very polluting Euro 5 for 5 or more years while everyone breaths in the NOX and soot. *shrugs shoulder* "it's natural progression"
How many times are you going to ignore that EV is not expensive if you calculate in terms of total cost of ownership and when compared like-for-like, rather than only look at sticker price?
 
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Overall cost of ownership per mile is a far better guide to the economics of a car. I keep a simple spreadsheet with all costs as an input to a mileage record so I know that my current car (at 11,780 miles) has so far cost me £1.18 per mile. This bottom line figure changes with the age and mileage of the car so while it's more accurate you do need a large sample to tell you how accurate it's likely to be for an average istance of a particular model.

There are various versions of this calculation available on line such as http://artofbeingcheap.com/calculator/

Absolutely this! I'm down to total cost inc depreciation/running costs/insurance/tax of under 24p per mile and I bought the car new!! But it is seven years old and on 193,000 miles!! EV just cannot deliver what I need at the moment, but I'm sure it will come, but for me initial cost and range are the killers.

My Car BTW 2012 Volvo V50 D2 (cost £20K new, only non-regular maintenance issues, two suspension bushes, and two steering gaiters, still on original exhaust, battery and clutch, all helped by the type of mileage). I expect to get at least 250K out of this car, and probably will make 300K, and these will bring the cost per mile down even further as the current value of the car is on the floor and can't go much lower!
 
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Government to certify dealerships able to work on EV's:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ealerships-trained-to-work-with-electric-cars

Independent garages are training their staff to work on high voltage parts of the EV. This website (advertises on SpeakEV, there may be others) that offers membership (with tech support) to garages who are able to work on EV's:
http://hevra.org.uk/


So the older car will take the lifetime of the vehicle to be off the road? We'll see those real-world very polluting Euro 5 for 5 or more years while everyone breaths in the NOX and soot. *shrugs shoulder* "it's natural progression"
How many times are you going to ignore that EV is not expensive if you calculate in terms of total cost of ownership and when compared like-for-like, rather than only look at sticker price?
How many times are you going to ignore the fact that it is the initial cost of getting that car on the road that people prioritise rather than waiting for the break and then start costing less. After all that is exactly what you did when buying your two cars.

Just this morning in the news they were talking about the UK being behind the rest of Europe and other countries in the take up of Ev's. Last year saw a 14% rise in the UK but that falls behind others. Some blame is put on the reduction of the government subsidy, but then they said the choice is growing and prices will come down. That sort of flies in the face of Nissans recent 6% price increase for the Leaf or Tesla's UK price for the Model 3 which is around £4k higher than what was expected even after the subsidy.

Euro 5 vehicle emissions aren't as bad as you make out. They are half the emissions of the Euro3 emissions diesel engines and there are still plenty of those about. People replacing those with more recent euro5 cars will reduce Nox levels, re-educating people to use a petrol car when they had no need for a diesel car will further reduce the levels. As I have said before, diesel generators on building sites, diesel generators on refrigerated lorries, barbecues and wood burning stoves etc all produce unfiltered emissions and all require regulation.
 
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The range thing is a bit of a concern but a red herring at the same time. We accept that we need to refuel an ICE and do it without question.
We then proceed to say range is an issue with EV's. Personally it's more to do with the fact that it's going to add on 30 mins minimum on a journey, assuming I can get a charge point without having to wait.
Personally I'd prefer an interchangeable battery pack. Drive in, the one in the car gets dropped, new one gets plugged in and you're away. Wouldn't have to be manufacturer specific if they could agree standard sizes (aye right :( ) Get's rid of the replacement battery problem as well and possibly solves a lot of the local infrastructure issues for grid reinforcement as well :thinking:
 
There are faster chargers coming out. BP Chargemaster are installing 150kw and I think Ionity are doing 350kw ones. It really won't be an issue.

Interchangeable battery packs are aren't a good idea and all trials of them have failed miserably.
 
range is an issue when I can fill the tank of my estate and not have to refill for a week

If it's parked over night it can be full every morning instead and pre warmed to your desired temperature. Drive way charging or street level charging or allocated parking space charging are all possible. Then you don't need to even go anywhere to fill up as it happens where you are parked for hours anyway.
 
Ok I was in Belgium this weekend (Classic Spa) and the hotel had 6 tesla superchargers. usual stuff, the model X self driving to the front of the hotel to pick up his driver, the model S's parked there, but yesterday there was a Model 3.

Got the owner to show me around. Standard wheels are very plastic wheel covers, door handles are tricky, upside down hand to open but you'll get used ot them.
Just a steering wheel out the dash, wrap around wood trim panel...and a huge tablet for every display, so Sat Nav looked amazing. Performance was quiet and rapid and there seemed a lot of space inside.

One of the guys at work says he gets his next week, he could only buy the extended range, with the options...
 
If it's parked over night it can be full every morning instead

it cant, because I cannot install a charging point :)
From the article - A fuller quote would include the proviso that range should be over 480 km/ 300 miles.

The gist of that article seems to be that people want a cleaner environment but don't want it to cost them anything.

i quoted the headline of the article and left it for people to read and make their own conclusion.
 
How many times are you going to ignore the fact that it is the initial cost of getting that car on the road that people prioritise rather than waiting for the break and then start costing less. After all that is exactly what you did when buying your two cars.
In my specific case, we wanted to have 2 vehicles, as I've said many times before. First gen short range EV like Leaf/Zoe makes so much sense when you only need a car for regular not-too-long commute. (and you have a driveway)
Yesterday, baby had a fever. Wife said to leave the EV for her to go to the GP. I took the diesel to work. Today, wife will be going to supermarket, so I took the diesel to work.
Our EV gets used every single day. The diesel only used when a second car is needed, or driving long distance with family on-board.

Speaking of driving long-ish distance:
I've bought tickets to "Fully Charged Live" in Silverstone, I'll be there Friday afternoon. Despite it will be 140 miles return journey for me, I'm going to take my ~80 miles EV. Drive to work Friday morning, fully charge at work and set off at noon. Drive 40 miles to the show (no temporary on-site charging due to amount of expected EV's). After the show, 20 miles to motorway, where I'll drive through charger paradise that is Milton Keyes and there is a 9 charger hub next to motorway, 30min top-up later I'll be on my way home for 50 miles.
Time difference compared to driving the diesel: probably 40min.
Cost difference between driving diesel and EV: ~£14 vs ~£4.30 (7.6p for ~20kWh at home, 12p for ~8kWh at work, 10.8p for ~16kWh at rapid charger)
Fun factor: EV wins hands down. Get to try out the MK charging hub. The diesel is just like any other car, A to B.

I think the article missed the point, at very least concentrated on the wrong aspects. Quoted person said:
Dad of two Jon Cook recently bought a new petrol SUV. After researching the market, he didn't feel an electric car was right for long family trips to Cornwall and there were no local electric charging points.
"There is definitely an increased cost in buying electric," he said. "And also just where you go to charge the cars. We live on a street so it would be quite difficult to have a charger on our street."
The professional analyst said :
Dr George Beard from the Transport Research Laboratory analysed the data.
"Key barriers to adoption of electric vehicles include the electric range," he said.
"The range needs to be long enough to give consumers confidence that the vehicle can meet their needs. The upfront purchase cost, and the availability of charging infrastructure so they can charge where and when they need, were also factors."
There's 3 factors: range, charging and cost. The article concentrated on range and cost, completely ignoring the total lack of public charging infrastructure. Those who have not approached EV with open mind will always require outrageous range, which increases cost of the car, whereas the actual problem is charging infrastructure. As long as infrastructure is ubiquitous, even short range EV can cover long distance with some planning.
 
There's 3 factors: range, charging and cost. The article concentrated on range and cost, completely ignoring the total lack of public charging infrastructure. Those who have not approached EV with open mind will always require outrageous range, which increases cost of the car, whereas the actual problem is charging infrastructure. As long as infrastructure is ubiquitous, even short range EV can cover long distance with some planning.

and time... yes you can but it's the increased time whilst you wait for the charge, or charge point availability. Now a 20 min stop for a toilet break, grab a coffee, is do-able. As more and more smart motorways come in, restricting speed, then I can see these becoming factors into increasing journey time, thus a 20 min stop doesn't become a huge factor in a long journey. That works for a rapid charge, however, lack of charge points, slow charging times, either on a journey or at home, is a current limitation.

It'll also be interesting in the future if staycations become closer to home, because of EV limitations.
 
In my specific case, we wanted to have 2 vehicles, as I've said many times before. First gen short range EV like Leaf/Zoe makes so much sense when you only need a car for regular not-too-long commute. (and you have a driveway)
Yesterday, baby had a fever. Wife said to leave the EV for her to go to the GP. I took the diesel to work. Today, wife will be going to supermarket, so I took the diesel to work.
Our EV gets used every single day. The diesel only used when a second car is needed, or driving long distance with family on-board.

Speaking of driving long-ish distance:
I've bought tickets to "Fully Charged Live" in Silverstone, I'll be there Friday afternoon. Despite it will be 140 miles return journey for me, I'm going to take my ~80 miles EV. Drive to work Friday morning, fully charge at work and set off at noon. Drive 40 miles to the show (no temporary on-site charging due to amount of expected EV's). After the show, 20 miles to motorway, where I'll drive through charger paradise that is Milton Keyes and there is a 9 charger hub next to motorway, 30min top-up later I'll be on my way home for 50 miles.
Time difference compared to driving the diesel: probably 40min.
Cost difference between driving diesel and EV: ~£14 vs ~£4.30 (7.6p for ~20kWh at home, 12p for ~8kWh at work, 10.8p for ~16kWh at rapid charger)
Fun factor: EV wins hands down. Get to try out the MK charging hub. The diesel is just like any other car, A to B.


I think the article missed the point, at very least concentrated on the wrong aspects. Quoted person said:

The professional analyst said :

There's 3 factors: range, charging and cost. The article concentrated on range and cost, completely ignoring the total lack of public charging infrastructure. Those who have not approached EV with open mind will always require outrageous range, which increases cost of the car, whereas the actual problem is charging infrastructure. As long as infrastructure is ubiquitous, even short range EV can cover long distance with some planning.
I drove to Thruxton Hampshire and back Sunday starting with a full tank approximately 190 mile round trip. Still not had to refuel yet, won't have to until the weekend.
Fun facts, I will get more than 120 extra miles out of this tank of fuel than I normally average. There was plenty of sections of road that I was producing zero emissions. After a day of standing on grass banking and wandering around with a rucksack my lower back was aching, a minute of sitting in a nice comfy super supportive Recaro shell seat and the pain was gone. Feeling fully refreshed after leaving home at 4:15 AM, a 2hr drive to Thruxton a day watching the racing, then around 2hr drive getting home at 8 PM. No need to stop on the way there, nor coming back.
 
As long as infrastructure is ubiquitous, even short range EV can cover long distance with some planning.

For many people though, me included this is an inconvenience that with ICE we don't have to put up with, tomorrow I have to drive to Hartlepool to work a full day on site to be there for 8.30am, its nearly 160 miles, I can drive this in one hit leaving home at 5.45am, I don't want to have to leave at 5am, and equally I don't want to get home 40 min later to charge on route (there is no charging available at the factory I'm going to), its a long enough working day as it is without adding 40mins or 1.5 hours if I had to charge twice, with a low range EV. A suitable high range EV costs more to purchase than all the costs (including initial purchase/fuel/maintenance/etc) in running my present ICE car to 200K miles!!!

And equally if you factor in the expense of a hotel so that it is not all done in one day, its more expensive than the ICE costs.
 
I drove to Thruxton Hampshire and back Sunday starting with a full tank approximately 190 mile round trip. Still not had to refuel yet, won't have to until the weekend.
Fun facts, I will get more than 120 extra miles out of this tank of fuel than I normally average. There was plenty of sections of road that I was producing zero emissions. After a day of standing on grass banking and wandering around with a rucksack my lower back was aching, a minute of sitting in a nice comfy super supportive Recaro shell seat and the pain was gone. Feeling fully refreshed after leaving home at 4:15 AM, a 2hr drive to Thruxton a day watching the racing, then around 2hr drive getting home at 8 PM. No need to stop on the way there, nor coming back.

I did about 900 miles in the TVR last weekend, over to Classic Spa. 155 miles to the channel tunnel, 230 miles the other side to the hotel, which did have Tesla superchargers but that was it on charge points. According to the Model 3 owner, McDonalds had two type 2's that were out of order and had been for some time, there were two other type 2 22kw ones elsewhere.
Filled up at Home, top up at Calais, then top up at Spa. Way back just the once on route, all 5 min stops for toilet breaks as well.
Even then it's a full days travel - left at 6am Friday, got there around 3:30pm, on the way back, left at 9am, got home at 4pm.

So that makes my TVR more economical than an EV. With an Ev you'd have to plan in an extra day stop overnight to charge the car each way at a nice hotel that has charge points
:D

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and time... yes you can but it's the increased time whilst you wait for the charge, or charge point availability. Now a 20 min stop for a toilet break, grab a coffee, is do-able. As more and more smart motorways come in, restricting speed, then I can see these becoming factors into increasing journey time, thus a 20 min stop doesn't become a huge factor in a long journey. That works for a rapid charge, however, lack of charge points, slow charging times, either on a journey or at home, is a current limitation.
, I don't want to have to leave at 5am, and equally I don't want to get home 40 min later to charge on route (there is no charging available at the factory I'm going to)
All good arguments for needing more EV chargers to advance EV adoption.

Imagine guaranteed no queue for EV charger. Or able to plug-in at any destination (eg. your factory, pub car park for walks)

A suitable high range EV costs more to purchase than all the costs (including initial purchase/fuel/maintenance/etc) in running my present ICE car to 200K miles!!!
Do you drive a cheap i10 or something? Or did you only look at Tesla? The way to maximise saving with EV is to buy the cheapest car that fits your journey. So for your 160 miles, I'd be looking at 180 miles EPA or 200 miles WLTP rated cars, nothing on the market unfortunately (IIRC).

It has to be said, 2019 is a shockingly bad year for EV's despite "it's coming" cries from a lot of manufacturers. There's just not many EV actually get delivered, and everyone seems to only want your reservation money.

There was plenty of sections of road that I was producing zero emissions.
That sounds like have similar reasoning to Toyota's "self charging hybrid". :banghead:
 
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