Everyone wants to be a photographer

Mr Bump said:
got to agree here, also as a recent convert to taking piccies with the new technology the general learning curve to taking good pics is easy, maybe to great pics more difficult but thats what the pros are for.

Photography is not a dark science and we should defo embrace more people enjoying this.

I also disagree with folk who say post processing is part of the picture taking process......its not its borderline fakery.
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Polaroid instamatic then?
 
If you're shooting digital, your camera automatically "post processes" your images using algorithms decided by the manufacturer (or your RAW converter if you shoot RAW & just go with the default).

Good post processing surely just puts that under your control rather than the control of Mr Canon or Mr Nikon. By "good" I mean processing that avoids manipulation (cloning, et al).

For this reason, NOT processing is arguably worse photography. You might make a pig's ear of it, but it's YOUR image, not an image optimised by whoever wrote the software for your camera or converter.
 
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Regarding the OP, it's true there has been an upsurge in interest in photography as a job... Unfortunately the ease of buying a camera decent enough has resulted in any Tom, Dick and Harry thinking they can do it as a job.

I love how accessible photography is but I hate how that has devalued the business. Catch 22?
 
gadgeteer said:
Without a doubt, becoming a photographer is easier nowadays than in days gone by. Manual focus, dark rooms, limited amounts of film etc all made it harder for an amateur to train up.

But as others have already said, the modern digital camera does away with all that.

The megapixel wars is over and more recently the emphasis has been on ISO performance. Even that will end soon I think. Personally I think the next gamechanger is whichever company manages to get Lytro-style technology into their cameras.

Can you imagine how many more people will become a photographer once you don't even have to worry about focus? Just stick the file on the computer and adjust afterwards!

Combine that with pulling stills from video and if the camera companies can merge the two technologies, the market as we know it will change.
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Yeah very true and you get cameras in smartphones that take loads of shots and then pick the good one from it so you are guaranteed a good (technically) photo


db247 said:
Regarding the OP, it's true there has been an upsurge in interest in photography as a job... Unfortunately the ease of buying a camera decent enough has resulted in any Tom, Dick and Harry thinking they can do it as a job.

I love how accessible photography is but I hate how that has devalued the business. Catch 22?
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I suppose like others have said once the dust settles the good photographers will stand out from the crowd when the crowd move on to something else....

I never put this thread up as I am worried it annoyed or anything its just an observation that nearly everyone I seem to talk to wants to do photography in one way or another and make a living from it.
 
What is annoying though, is it's clear what photography is to most people these days. Just search Amazon for photography books... I just did as I wanted a price for a book I was recommending to someone... this is what happens.

bQv1zo6.jpg


It goes on like that for three pages too.


Nothing actually on photography until you reach page 5... up until then it's Photoshop books and "How to get the best from your Nikon/Canon xxxx"
 
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Oddly, I got a very different result when I went to Amazon, clicked 'books', typed in 'photography'. It took me here.

I reckon the problems start with the way cameras are marketed. Look at the ads, see how often words like 'simple' and 'easy' occur.

Take your first steps in DSLR photography and enjoy great picture quality, responsive performance and new creative opportunities.
Canon EOS digital SLRs are easy to use and offer unparalleled flexibility, being supported by the extensive EOS System of lenses and accessories.

The right settings, individually selected for you
Canon’s Scene Intelligent Auto mode analyses each scene as it’s being composed and selects the right camera settings for the subject being photographed. Brightness, contrast and colour are all monitored closely, and the presence of movement and faces is detected.
The result is great-looking pictures with a minimum of fuss, leaving you to get on with the important business of being creative.
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Link

Nothing much to say that actually, learning to get decent photos out of a camera is pretty difficult. So people buy the camera, are disappointed with the results, and think, hmm, I know, I'll fix it in post. They read some stuff about processing:

Adobe® Photoshop® Elements 11 software helps you edit pictures with powerful, easy-to-use options and share them via print, the web, Facebook, and more.* Live in the moment knowing you can easily turn your everyday snapshots into sensational photos.
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link

More on how easy it all is. Just give us some money, we do the rest. Which is roughly what Kodak were saying in their ads over 100 years ago.

At this point they begin to get an inkling that some human input is needed if they want nice pictures, and knowledge of processing as well as camera handling is needed to get a decent result.

Or they give up and some cheap, hardly used kit comes onto the market (which is a bit of a hint for any beginners reading this ;) )
 
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How weird. He's right. Type in "Photography books" in the general search field on page 1, and you get loads of photoshop books... do what Jon did and you get to the good stuff.

I'm more than pleased to be wrong on this occasion. :)
 
Pookeyhead said:
How weird. He's right. Type in "Photography books" in the general search field on page 1, and you get loads of photoshop books... do what Jon did and you get to the good stuff.

I'm more than pleased to be wrong on this occasion. :)
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<...checks to see if world has ended...> :D
 
To be absolutely frank, unless you're using a wooden pin-hole camera and silver iodide stained cloth you are, in my opinion, a dirty cheat.
 
I think a key point to this whole thing is:
People "want" to be a photographer.

This doesn't actually mean they will become one, or even try to become one.
It's a brave soul who invests £££££'s in gear, leaves the day job and tries to go pro. The more sensible approach of starting part-time, and building contacts will likely find how hard it is to break into the market and then give up. Unless they've got talent & business sense, in which case - good luck to them!
 
ghoti said:
To be absolutely frank, unless you're using a wooden pin-hole camera and silver iodide stained cloth you are, in my opinion, a dirty cheat.
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Bloody modernist. What's wrong with bitumen of Judea and an eight-hour exposure then? That's how real photographers do it.
 
jon ryan said:
Bloody modernist. What's wrong with bitumen of Judea and an eight-hour exposure then? That's how real photographers do it.
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Hmm 'Bitumen of Judea'! Splitters, we support the 'Judean Bitumen front':D
 
Interesting thread.

I have been taking pictures with cameras for over 50 years noe. I started at the age of 7 and dutifully catalogued everything.

I like being a photographer and learned loads I still use from my box brownie days to today with my canon eos gear. I still shoot 35mm and 120 though I no longer develop and print these days.

The OP makes a very clear statement that everyone wants to be a photographer. I have to agree. RThings are easier quicker and cheaper these days.

Remember too that "media studies" in schools are turning out media savvy 18 year olds many of whom have been taught more than the basics of drawing. Until a couple of years ago I was Chair of Governors for a secondary school deemed an "Art College".

The quality of work done in addition to the required 3Rs was superb. Photography and PP was on the curriculum (my own secondary school was chosen by me as it had a darkroom and studio space).

The reality of the moment is that here are over 2 MILLION registered unemployes (and probably the same again UNEMPLOYABLE) that some will try to be jobbing gardeners, decorators and even (God forbid) "photographers".

The world is now inhabited by 7.2 Billion people. The UK by 62 million. Within that number there will be those who will be handed a shovel, a paint brush, a set of electrical tools to go and earn a living. I see that some will pick up a camera and will say I want to be a Pro Photographer.....

As things stand we live in a constant. The numbers of people in the world increase day after day and so therefore does the need for photographers. Replacing often those who retire and die.

It may be that this rush of new blood are failing to "do their time" as apprentices unlike a pro tog friend of mine did BUT the pace of life, the innovation and change in media all demands people to move quicker with the time they have.

The wedding photography business has, to some extent, been driven by a perceived reduction in the number of people choosing not to get married, civil weddings and smaller cost driven 'bit of a do'. I get the impression that with the increase in population, the number of licenced wedding premises etc that the numbers are still enough to warrant the incidence of pro photographers.

I have left the matter of social media till now. I do not use it myself (though back in pre www days I was an avid user of the Undernet) - I am gobsmacked to see just how many people share their lives and photos with the world.

I have seen very ordinary lo res snaps being applauded as BRILLIANT FANTASTIC and thankfully some, matching my own critique, as SH**E.

There is a world of opportunity and space for many but the bad will still be sh**e and their work will dry up. They may still have a following but it will diminish.

For me - I always refuse to do "pro work". I did, however, do a reshoot for a friend. They came back from honeymoon to some pretty awful pictures done by their wedding photographer. I redid all of the bride and groom pictures in the same church with the vicar etc. My payment? 2 Pints of cider film paper and chemical at cost.

Theses days I could probably put the royal family in the church with them.

Modern compacts.... love them.... got a 16 megapixel Samsung DV300F take a pic send it to my galaxy phone and email within seconds...... or straight from the camera via wifi.... theres the real danger!

H
 
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TheCrewDesigns said:
I just wanted to share an observation that everyone wants to be a photographer....
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I don't want to be a photographer, I have a few camera's and lenses, and I do take photos. I simply see myself as a person who simply takes photos as a hobby, and to while away the time.

But what is a photographer? If a person saw me with one camera at my eye, and another slung over my shoulder, and camera bag over the other shoulder. Would that person say, oh he is not a photographer, he is just a person taking photos :thinking:
 
TheCrewDesigns said:
Like I said more interest in photography is good as it drives innovation with equipment technique etc and I was not saying that was a problem.

My only concern was the possibility of the market becoming so saturated with 'photographers' that it becomes almost impossible to make it viable no matter how skilled you are. Not many of us can compete with the 'I'll do it for £100' brigade
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Bit off subject but relevant none the less,
I used to be a dj, I was djing for around 20 years, and i was djing at a very good standard for the final 8 of those years In some of the best clubs in the UK , the previous 12 years was all practice with the odd gig here and there. When I first started playing, equipment was expensive and vinyl was pricey aswell, there wasn't as many djs around. These days, with the introduction of CD-MP3/laptops etc into the dj world, it's more accessible and a lot cheaper so every Tom Bob and Harry wants to be a part of it (some for the right reasons, some for the wrong reasons, but that's a different story). Back in the early days ALL pro djs got paid handsomely as it was a very skilled job. These days, with more and more "pro" djs on the scene who charge £100 a night to press a couple of buttons on a cdj or keys on a laptop with very little skill involved, yet the older, wiser, more experienced, far more skilled djs who learnt the trade from the beginning (on vinyl) and did it the hard way are still getting as much, if not more work, charging much higher prices as they ever have done. Why ??? Because they are better and people (club promoters & clubbers) realise this so pay a higher price to witness the masters at work :)

The cream ALWAYS rises to the top........

Just saying........

Rich
 
Plus rich, don't forget the stipulation that they now have to sell over 25 tickets each to be guaranteed that slot. I'm an ex vinyl junkie.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Nonsense. How is it not viable despite how skilled you are? If you are skilled, talented, creative and innovative, then your images will stand out from everyone else's, and will command a higher price.

There will always be people who will buy a Chevrolet (Daewoo... you're not fooling anyone) Matiz. They don't care... they just want a box that moves. There will always be people who want a Aston Martin.

If you're good, you can compete with the Astons... if you're crap, you're going up against Daewoo.


Become less crap.
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I loved that... perfect advice IMO :clap:
 
Steve Smith said:
Other than having a Hackney carriage licence, the trades I mentioned are easy to set up. Anyone can be a gardener or carpenter or plumber (other than gas fitting) without any qualifications.

No different to setting up as a photographer really..
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The problem I spose is that the you have the similar danger to those professions, clients go for a cheap price and end up disapointed by sub standard work.

Makes me glad my efforts those far have been based around selling landscape prints, very much a "what you see is what you get" there.
 
An interesting read this thread and some very valid points.
I'm curious about those that are starting out for the first time.
Is it the norm to set your prices low even if your quality is high until such point as you obtain the recognition to charge the higher prices, or do you wade right in at the deep end and hope to cut the mustard!?
 
stupar said:
An interesting read this thread and some very valid points.
I'm curious about those that are starting out for the first time.
Is it the norm to set your prices low even if your quality is high until such point as you obtain the recognition to charge the higher prices, or do you wade right in at the deep end and hope to cut the mustard!?
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Why not set your prices based on what is required for your business to see a profit.
 
But what if they want to do it as a side-job/hobby so don't need to make an living salary - just a top-up/bonus?
 
stupar said:
An interesting read this thread and some very valid points.
I'm curious about those that are starting out for the first time.
Is it the norm to set your prices low even if your quality is high until such point as you obtain the recognition to charge the higher prices, or do you wade right in at the deep end and hope to cut the mustard!?
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I'm in my 2nd year now and started charging really low prices just to get a few in my portfolio... everytime I did I put my prices up a little until eventually over the course of about 12 months reaching what i'd class as 'mid tier' prices. My plan is to keep upping my prices every now and then little by little, but maybe less so than I did over the last year.

I shot full days for £150, then £300, then £450 last year. Now it's £600 until the speeches and £850 until 1st dance.

There's no right or wrong way to do it, what it really depends on is your skill and portfolio... you can only price what your portfolio will allow you to (remember this is what potential clients look at), and your portfolio will only be as good as your skill allows. Shoot crap weddings badly and your skill + portfolio will = low grade clients and prices for ever more.

Shoot crap weddings amazingly and you'll be able to put your prices up to match, or if you can shoot a few nice weddings for free and do an amazing job you can jump up the price ladder very quickly.

There's many factors in play though really... how you source clients being one, if you aren't well known then how will you get recommendations? If you jump price brackets too quickly all those possible referrals from the cheap weddings are lost (not a big deal IMO as these will likely also be cheap naff weddings), can you afford to pay for a great website to be built by a pro and learn SEO (or pay someone to do it) so you feature high enough and well enough to attract business via google?

Many factors at play and no real one size fits all solution I'm afraid... but like I said your skill and portfolio will determine large amounts of where you fit in the market place
 
I'm not a pro, i'm still learning and far from being good enough. But i do find myself looking at pages on Facebook and the like from friends or friends of friends who are setting themselves up in business as photographers and thinking "Have they no self respect?!". Seriously, some of the work i've seen lately is truly shocking. I know self-confidence is a good thing, but some of these people seem to be blissfully ignorant as to how rubbish they actually are :/ The ones i see mainly seem to be concerned with newborn photography, and i'm genuinely concerned that some harm is going to befall an infant due to these "pros" not having the understanding of newborn shoot safety or the level of skill in pp to pull off the "trendy" poses in a responsible way :/ I'm willing to bet that they don't have the insurance to cover themselves if something were to go horribly wrong either.

Like i said, i still have alot to learn before i turn pro, if indeed i ever do. But i know my work is better than alot of the stuff i've seen peddled for cash lately. I guess i just don't have the right level of confidence/ignorance to set myself up in business. I'd rather be at least good first ;)
 
Durbs said:
But what if they want to do it as a side-job/hobby so don't need to make an living salary - just a top-up/bonus?
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It's a common misconception. As soon as you're charging you owe it to yourself to do the sums properly.

If you don't properly account for the costs of doing business, then you are effectively subsidising someone else's lifestyle.:wacky:

If you are of the mindset that you've already got the gear, and you'd be putting petrol in the car anyway, and you can do without insurance, or registering to pay tax. It's just 'pocket money'. What are you really doing? You're setting a price that 'the market' can't possibly compete with.

But that's only half the story - because your day job (and your dependants) have already paid for your business costs, someone else's family gets to save money on their luxury goods. Is that fair to you and yours? You buy a new camera which in real life is competing with a weekend away? So your family pay so that you can give someone else a bargain price on their photography.

And when you give up, because the hassle isn't worth the reward - you've lowered the market price, and the only people who can trade at the same price, have to cut the same corners:shake:.

You owe it to yourself and the industry to calculate your costs properly - If you're happy with £10 an hour, that's no-one else's business, but if you kid yourself you're earning £50 when you haven't accounted for your business properly - everyone loses.
 
keljbj said:
But i do find myself looking at pages on Facebook and the like from friends or friends of friends who are setting themselves up in business as photographers and thinking "Have they no self respect?!". Seriously, some of the work i've seen lately is truly shocking. I know self-confidence is a good thing, but some of these people seem to be blissfully ignorant as to how rubbish they actually are
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Indeed. I think we all now a few like that.

One guy I know is arguably the WORST photographer I have met. Seriously. I'd link his work but I know that is frowned upon. It's the sort of stuff that would easily end up on that youarenotaphotographer site. Yet he's doing OK with his studio venture. Early days yet I guess but time will tell. Certainly judging from his FB page he's doing quite a few family studio shoots. Most are badly composed, underexposed and poorly edited in Photoshop.

But what it has taught me is that the business sales/marketing side is important, if not more important than the ability to take a nice photo.
 
It is not unprofessional to undercut the competition. Practically every car insurance company claims to be cheaper than all the others and supermarkets regular advertise the fact that they are cheaper than the rest.


Steve.
 
Fantastic thread enjoyed this one.....

One thing that has got my goat.

Why does everyone keep implying that being 'A PRO' or 'Going PRO' is a self employed thing????

I've been full time/Pro since leaving college. 20 years a Pro working for companies or Government. Only the last 5 been self employed.

just a little niggle...lol

great thread!
 
Soda Farl said:
Don't really see what the problem is to be honest.

Photography is more popular than it has possibly ever been, superb.

Not only will the manufacturers invest more in R&D they will also have to keep the margins down to stay competitive.

A good professional photographer will always make money as people will always pay a premium for a high level of service. The more your average Joe learns about photography the better, as it will give them a better understanding of what it takes to produce a wonderful image.

As for people wanting to become a professional I don't really see a problem with that either. The more people that do, the more the pro's that are excellent at what they do will stand out.

Hopefully the surge in people's interest in photography will help stem the long standing pro's who charge a small fortune while providing a very basic level of service. I can think of a few long standing professional wedding photographers local to me who have made a lot of money over several years from photography, yet produce work that to be honest I reckon my 7 year old could compete with. These are the same guys that tear their hair out because of the hundreds of people advertising wedding photography at some times a third of what they charge. They have been leaching of the gravy train for long enough. As with any business the more competitive it is the better for the customer.

Professional photographers by now I am sure have realised that the service they provide is no longer a niche product. Long may it continue, the guys that have been basically taking the **** for years will have to drop their prices to compete or fall by the wayside.
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Well said
 
Steve Smith said:
It is not unprofessional to undercut the competition. Practically every car insurance company claims to be cheaper than all the others and supermarkets regular advertise the fact that they are cheaper than the rest.


Steve.
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There's nothing wrong with undercutting or selling on price, but if the only way to keep your prices down is to not pay taxes (whether you're Amazon or Uncle Bob) that's wrong:shake:?

Or to kid yourself that you're 'making some easy money' earning £200 a year shooting a few portraits when you're spending £500 a year on gear, when you make family decisions for your 'hobby', which is effectively giving money to your customers.

Honesty to yourself and others. Surely it's not too difficult a concept to grasp?:)
 
Everyone wants to be a Pro photographer
Everyone wants to be a wedding planner
Everyone wants to be a DJ
Everyone wants to be a videographer
Everyone wants...

To stand on the grass on the other side of the fence as they see it as greener... Besides that, everyone is skint, and wants to earn some money on the side. The "hard work" and "learning" bit is usually missed out

Ultimately, skint clients pay peanuts for a photographer, and they get what they pay for. Meanwhile the good photographers, command a price that earns them a living, and they don't want (or can afford to work with) those sort of clients anyway
 
TBH, being a photographer is easier then being a software programmer :)

People with a great eye for composure and have a history of Art can pick up a camera and produce brilliant results because at the end of the day, photography is an art form and if you already have the skill as an artist, you will become a decent photographer
 
jonneymendoza said:
TBH, being a photographer is easier then being a software programmer :)

People with a great eye for composure and have a history of Art can pick up a camera and produce brilliant results because at the end of the day, photography is an art form and if you already have the skill as an artist, you will become a decent photographer
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I had a camera since I was 16 (now 43) but I did get more involved with art like watercolours and portraits and I did sell a lot of paintings. I actually really got into my art when I was ill with cancer and then later I returned to my photography and took it more seriously.....
 
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