Everyone wants to be a photographer

[Pookeyhead]

There's always teaching too, of course.

Afraid not.... unless you want to teach A level or at a very low level you'll not get a proper lecturing position without real industry experience behind you. Never gonna happen.

 

[ZoneV]

Afraid not.... unless you want to teach A level or at a very low level you'll not get a proper lecturing position without real industry experience behind you. Never gonna happen.

What's wrong with teaching A-level if you can make a living from it?

 

[Pookeyhead]

What's wrong with teaching A-level if you can make a living from it?

Nothing.... but it's rather like being a school teacher more than anything else. Most A level students aren't very engaged.

 

[Soda Farl]

You know what they say. Those that can't do, teach.

 

[TonyNI]

To be fair, cliff mautner teaches and he most certainly can "do" lol

 

[specialman]

Most definitely although full-time staff photographers seem to be a very small minority on this forum (are there any? Apart from Daryl who I think used to be a staffer before going alone, I can't think of any).

But yes, it's definitely possible to make a living from photography without having any business skills.

Agreed, as I did for many years working as a staffer for a publisher. But ultimately, unless there is some business element to your position as a staffer (i.e. bringing paid-for work into the company), your career future is in the hands of others because you rely on them to pay your wages.

The majority of my work was commissioned by editors within the company who all paid a nominal fee (£50, then later £100) from their monthly production budgets to cover the internal cost. But there was an increasing number of shoots to fit with adverts that were being designed, all at no cost, and this ultimately was one of the contributing factors why I was made redundant. It wasn't the only reason, but because advertising is harder to come by, rates are reduced and incentives are great - such as free photography and design. It's probably a much more affluent version of this in high-end, glossy magazine publishing, but at the niche end of the market because staffers are undervalued and their role spread thinly across the whole company,then on the whole, photography is undervalued.

 

[ernesto]

You know what they say. Those that can't do, teach.

'they' say a lot of things but they are not always true are they.

 

[Soda Farl]

To be fair, cliff mautner teaches and he most certainly can "do" lol

Absolutely.

However have you seen some of the work produced by the guys that teach in the local uni's and college's, lol.

 

[TonyNI]

Tommy I'm gonna tell Brett your flat out on TP in work lolz

 

[Soda Farl]

Tommy I'm gonna tell Brett your flat out on TP in work lolz

:bang:

 

[jerry12953]

Absolutely.

However have you seen some of the work produced by the guys that teach in the local uni's and college's, lol.

It looks to me as if many of the "name" landscape photographers out there, and many who aren't names, earn most of their living from teaching, or try to. Just look at "Light and Land" and the numerous copycat outfits offering courses, workshops and trips to exotic locations. For the photographer it is part of their business model, because there's so little money in actually producing photographs these days.

Some, at least, of the respected "art" photographers work in colleges or other institutions part-time to fund their picture-taking.

 

[Pookeyhead]

You know what they say. Those that can't do, teach.

You doubt I can do? Fancy putting your work up against mine do you? I'm up for that

It looks to me as if many of the "name" landscape photographers out there, and many who aren't names, earn most of their living from teaching, or try to. Just look at "Light and Land" and the numerous copycat outfits offering courses, workshops and trips to exotic locations. For the photographer it is part of their business model, because there's so little money in actually producing photographs these days.

Some, at least, of the respected "art" photographers work in colleges or other institutions part-time to fund their picture-taking.

You're correct, but for the big names to teach on their own terms, they have to be established, and respected.... and, to a certain extent, famous.

Pretty much all art based photographers teach to fund their own work, yes. All the ones I know anyway... except the bigger names of course, then their in the same boat as the "famous" bracket above.

 

[jerry12953]

You doubt I can do? Fancy putting your work up against mine do you? I'm up for that



You're correct, but for the big names to teach on their own terms, they have to be established, and respected.... and, to a certain extent, famous.

Pretty much all art based photographers teach to fund their own work, yes. All the ones I know anyway... except the bigger names of course, then their in the same boat as the "famous" bracket above.

It's surprising to me how people with such little experience and such a poor track record set themselves up to teach. It's up to the punters whether they fall for it, of course.....

Bigger names - bigger than Professor Andreas Gursky? Not that he needs the money, of course......

 

[jonneymendoza]

Most definitely although full-time staff photographers seem to be a very small minority on this forum (are there any? Apart from Daryl who I think used to be a staffer before going alone, I can't think of any).

But yes, it's definitely possible to make a living from photography without having any business skills.

And that is what I assumed from the beginning but got shot down

 

[PMN]

You doubt I can do? Fancy putting your work up against mine do you? I'm up for that

You know you can do it, those here who've seen your work know you can do it. Do you really need to drop down to schoolyard level with such a childish reply? You're getting into 'my dad's bigger than your dad' territory here and you're better than that.

And no, the smiley didn't change how it came across.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Bigger names - bigger than Professor Andreas Gursky? Not that he needs the money, of course......

Which is what I meant. Those who are famous, do it because they enjoy it. To be honest, most people who teach do so because they love doing it.

You're getting into 'my dad's bigger than your dad' territory here and you're better than that.

You're right, I am. I am sick of the "those that can do..." rubbish... especially from those who seem to neither shoot, or teach... blowhards and armchair photographers.


The smiley was genuine glee at the prospect of putting the loudmouth in his place. I offer no apology for that.

 

[PMN]

You're right, I am. I am sick of the "those that can do..." rubbish... especially from those who seem to neither shoot, or teach... blowhards and armchair photographers.


The smiley was genuine glee at the prospect of putting the loudmouth in his place. I offer no apology for that.

I understand how you feel, I just think sometimes someone's work says more than words ever will.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Damned straight!

 

[Phil V]

And that is what I assumed from the beginning but got shot down

You assumed it ought to be easy - it isn't. He only said it was 'possible', they're two radically different things.

...
But yes, it's definitely possible to make a living from photography without having any business skills.

This forum is fairly typical I'm afraid, we had one 'employed' pro on here till recently. Now there are none (that are regular contributors) on the other hand, there are hundreds of regular contributors who are self employed, more than half of them part time (and many more part timers who don't even consider themselves 'professional'). That should give you a clearer picture of what 'possible' means (and the general pattern of employment in Photography).

I frequent other forums too, and the picture is the same everywhere. And as I said earlier, salaried photographers tend to be in specialist fields, medical, SOCO, academic, and the common route into those fields is definitely through a degree in photography.

Larger studio's do sometimes hire full time pro's, but more often than not, it's freelancers by the job. Freelancing doesn't require the same kind of marketing skills that running your own business does - but it relies on constantly marketing yourself nonetheless.

 

[Laudrup]

You doubt I can do? Fancy putting your work up against mine do you? I'm up for that

You can always post it anyway without the 'duel'?

 

[ernesto]

And that is what I assumed from the beginning but got shot down

You got shot down because you said "all you need is a good eye" to become a professional photographer. That is clearly not the case.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I've posted up tons of my work in these forums (unlike some). Just do a search on my username. There should be stuff in my gallery as well... I think.. I cleared it out recently because it was full. I may populate it again actually.

 

[TheTimeChamber]

Can't say I am in it to be a pro tbh, my only aim is to be able to take decent photos of holidays, family, friends etc...

 

[Soda Farl]

Which is what I meant. Those who are famous, do it because they enjoy it. To be honest, most people who teach do so because they love doing it.





You're right, I am. I am sick of the "those that can do..." rubbish... especially from those who seem to neither shoot, or teach... blowhards and armchair photographers.


The smiley was genuine glee at the prospect of putting the loudmouth in his place. I offer no apology for that.

I find pretty much everything you post on here to be condescending in the extreme.


Are you going to send me another abusive p.m like the last time?

I am in Blackpool quite often if you would like a face to face discussion?

 

[Laudrup]

I've posted up tons of my work in these forums (unlike some). Just do a search on my username. There should be stuff in my gallery as well... I think.. I cleared it out recently because it was full. I may populate it again actually.

Why don't you become a professional and make more than you would as a teacher?

 

[ZoneV]

You assumed it ought to be easy - it isn't. He only said it was 'possible', they're two radically different things.



This forum is fairly typical I'm afraid, we had one 'employed' pro on here till recently. Now there are none (that are regular contributors) on the other hand, there are hundreds of regular contributors who are self employed, more than half of them part time (and many more part timers who don't even consider themselves 'professional'). That should give you a clearer picture of what 'possible' means (and the general pattern of employment in Photography).

I frequent other forums too, and the picture is the same everywhere. And as I said earlier, salaried photographers tend to be in specialist fields, medical, SOCO, academic, and the common route into those fields is definitely through a degree in photography.

Larger studio's do sometimes hire full time pro's, but more often than not, it's freelancers by the job. Freelancing doesn't require the same kind of marketing skills that running your own business does - but it relies on constantly marketing yourself nonetheless.

I agree that the ratio of SE to staffers on here is very high and that may be a reasonable reflection of the industry (although not to the extent that the ratio suggests), but the staffers aren't the only rarity here: most (all?) of the "pro talk" seems to be centred around operating on your own. Where are all the agency/freelance photographers? There's certainly no shortage of them in the industry.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Where are all the agency/freelance photographers? There's certainly no shortage of them in the industry.

SE/Freelance. Same thing surely.

 

[Sonriendo]

Why don't you become a professional and make more than you would as a teacher?

Errrm if he teaches photography surely that makes him a professional photograher

 

[ZoneV]

SE/Freelance. Same thing surely.

It can be. I'm trying to differentiate between those who operate on their own (e.g. A portait studio) and those who do agency work. Both are SE yet they are very different ways of working.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I am in Blackpool quite often if you would like a face to face discussion?

Personally I'd be more impressed if you posted some of your work.

Why don't you become a professional and make more than you would as a teacher?

I have spent 27 years as a professional photographer. I don't need to "become" one.

It can be. I'm trying to differentiate between those who operate on their own (e.g. A portait studio) and those who do agency work. Both are SE yet they are very different ways of working.

Gotcha. I was freelance if it helps to redress the balance

 

[ernesto]

Why don't you become a professional and make more than you would as a teacher?

Money is not everything, what if someone actually preferred teaching and got more satisfaction from it?

 

[Soda Farl]

Personally I'd be more impressed if you posted some of your work.

I have posted photographs I have taken several times on the forum.

Anyway you didn't answer my questions?

Are you going to send me further abusive p.m's?

Would you like to meet with me in Blackpool for a face to face discusion, as you seem incapble of having a one to one discussion on here without becoming abusive?

One additional question I just wondered about.

Are you trying to set some sort of record for forum posts? 3000 in under a year seems like quite a lot. Is your employer aware of how much time you spend on here?

 

[jerry12953]

Money is not everything, what if someone actually preferred teaching and got more satisfaction from it?

How could they be described as a photographer, in that case?

I've also been puzzled by the distinction between self-employed and freelance.

 

[simonblue]

I was a pro once I must admit I love it,but it does have its up & downs you really need a good business head on you if you want to make a good living.

If money not your driving force,yes just maybe you can scratch a living but don't expect to be able to live it up

 

[ZoneV]

Gotcha. I was freelance if it helps to redress the balance

Fair dues, but where are the rest of them? I know a couple locally and sometimes talk to them about recent assignments and what have you. It's always an interesting chat but maybe they just don't do forums for some reason.

 

[Pookeyhead]

How could they be described as a photographer, in that case?

I still get commissioned to shoot professionally, and have 27 years of working as a photographer behind me. What else does that make me?

I have posted photographs I have taken several times on the forum.

Anyway you didn't answer my questions?

Are you going to send me further abusive p.m's?

No... not worth it.

Would you like to meet with me in Blackpool for a face to face discusion, as you seem incapble of having a one to one discussion on here without becoming abusive?

Why would I want a discussion with you?

 

[simonblue]

How could they be described as a photographer, in that case?

I've also been puzzled by the distinction between self-employed and freelance.

To me one of the worlds greatest photographer W Eugene Smith,ended his days teaching and died with $15 dollars in his bank account

 

[Laudrup]

I have spent 27 years as a professional photographer. I don't need to "become" one.

Why keep teaching?

Money is not everything, what if someone actually preferred teaching and got more satisfaction from it?

When bankers get together they talk about art, when artists get together, they talk about money. - Oscar Wilde

I'd say to someone who thought like that, you're kidding yourself on.

 

[Laudrup]

I still get commissioned to shoot professionally, and have 27 years of working as a photographer behind me. What else does that make me?

Do you get commissioned enough to live on?

 

[Soda Farl]

I still get commissioned to shoot professionally, and have 27 years of working as a photographer behind me. What else does that make me?



No... not worth it.

Would you like to meet with me in Blackpool for a face to face discusion, as you seem incapble of having a one to one discussion on here without becoming abusive?

Why would I want a discussion with you?[/QUOTE]

Well you seem to be happy to send me abusive p.m's while hiding behind your computer I thought a face to face discussion might be easier for you to handle. I am happy to go out for a days shooting with you and to post the images on here for critique after as you seem to want some sort of competition.