Exposure compensation vs Manual Mode

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Simply that M with auto ISO isn’t Manual.
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The question still remains, if the Mode dial is set to M, and ISO is set to Auto, What should this be called (because saying I shot in 'Not Manual' sounds silly!)?
 
The question still remains, if the Mode dial is set to M, and ISO is set to Auto, What should this be called (because saying I shot in 'Not Manual' sounds silly!)?
A waste of time? :LOL: As for the camera setting rather than this discussion, how about partial manual?
 
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The question still remains, if the Mode dial is set to M, and ISO is set to Auto, What should this be called (because saying I shot in 'Not Manual' sounds silly!)?
I believe Pentax have a separate mode for this which they call TAV,
 
I'm with @Nod @Phil V et al in that - If the camera is working automatically using auto-ISO to adjust the exposure for you then its an auto setting - regardless of what P A S M you've chosen, you are still giving ultimate control to the camera - there's even a clue in the name "auto-ISO"

The only true Manual for exposure is M (ignoring Bulb/Time before a smart-arse chips in lol) - so you choose the aperture & shutter speed and with auto-ISO turned off so you choose the sensitivity too - what's hard to understand about that ???

BTW I never use auto-ISO, but I do use AP most of the time and M the rest of the time (if not on Blub for those same smart-arses)

I don't recall ever using S or P as I can't see the point of either for my photography

Dave
 
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No it isn't, the camera has told you the exposure, all you've done is change the auto selection a bit, so it's partial manual! ;) Anyway, none of the above should apply to you as you should be shooting in 'P' mode like Martin does. (y)
I use P mode when I use flash - like Martin. :D

Although I don't use a Fong dome as I prefer the look of a pop-up flash. :exit:
 
The question still remains, if the Mode dial is set to M, and ISO is set to Auto, What should this be called (because saying I shot in 'Not Manual' sounds silly!)?


Its a semi auto mode because the camera is getting the exposure for you and setting it using the ISO.. just the same as it does when it sets your aperture or your shutter speed in the other semi auto selections..

Manual is when you set the exposure... not when the camera sets it and although its a thin line also not when the camera sets it and you compensate.. otherwise you would call every option full manual:)

To the OP .. with people shooting different things then your not going to get an accross the board answer as a portrait photogrpaher wiht set lighting will hav e atotally different approach to a nature or sports photogrpaher :)



ADDYONBIT
Or it should be called ISO Priority as thats exactly what it is same as apreture priority and shutter priority :)
 
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What manual in those situation does do is make you consider the consequences of the settings.

when I go into a situation I set the appropriate ISO that will give me a suitable range of shutter speeds to go along with the chosen aperture.
That way all the images will match quality wise. which I consider an important factor.

I know the consequence of the settings.

I set the shutter speed to the lowest I can get away with for a subject which may move and use the ISO setting decided by the lighting. For example in the room I'm in I can go from fx, 1/160 and ISO 800 to fx, 1/160 and ISO 5,000 depending on what I point the camera at so the implications for ISO and shutter speed are clear. I don't really see fixing the ISO and varying the shutter as an option as I need to freeze motion and there's quite a difference in lighting around the room hence I'd need radically different shutter speeds to keep the quality the same and some shutter speeds could be too slow to freeze movement.

I can see how you keep the quality the same by doing this but I can't see it working for me unless there's less range in lighting.

How can manual meaning manual be a silly argument. it is just the way it is.

Arguing over the semantics is silly. The camera is in manual mode.
 
Its a semi auto mode because the camera is getting the exposure for you and setting it using the ISO.. just the same as it does when it sets your aperture or your shutter speed in the other semi auto selections..

Manual is when you set the exposure... not when the camera sets it and although its a thin line also not when the camera sets it and you compensate.. otherwise you would call every option full manual:)

To the OP .. with people shooting different things then your not going to get an accross the board answer as a portrait photogrpaher wiht set lighting will hav e atotally different approach to a nature or sports photogrpaher :)

Shooting full manual is IMO best done when you have the time to set everything and nothing then changes. That has its uses. If something changes you can still shoot full manual if you have time to alter the settings and still get the picture.
 
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Or it should be called ISO Priority as thats exactly what it is same as apreture priority and shutter priority :)

But it's not - in Aperture Priority you set the aperture, in Shutter Priority you set the camera, but in (not really) Manual with Auto ISO, ISO is the one thing you don't control.
So it's 'Everything but ISO' Priority :LOL:
 
But it's not - in Aperture Priority you set the aperture, in Shutter Priority you set the camera, but in (not really) Manual with Auto ISO, ISO is the one thing you don't control.
So it's 'Everything but ISO' Priority :LOL:
In Auto ISO every time you change shutter speed or aperture the ISO changes. So long as you are paying attention to all three parameters you have full control in M + Auto ISO + Exposure Compensation. Which makes it full manual control in my book. (y)
 
The camera is in manual mode.
It's not though, is it? The camera is controlling the exposure by changing the ISO. If you want to shoot in full manual mode then you have to manually set the ISO as well as the shutter speed and aperture. There is no arguing about it, that's how it is. (y)
 
Wow I never knew manual (M) and auto ISO was such a touchy subject! Don't get me started on the photographers who go on about shooting in full manual is the only way to shoot when all they do is change aperture, shutter speed and ISO to centre the cameras meter display in the viewfinder!

I use auto ISO with M mode all the time for wildlife as it gives me full control of both apeture and shutter speed which are the two most important controls. full manual control is too slow to react to wildlife and changing light. I find ISO isn’t that important as my camera is pretty good from ISO 100 through to ISO6400 therefore ISO isn’t that important to me. Personally I‘d rather have slightly noisy photos than blurry photos. Any way only photographers care about noise, no one else does.

OP- I use exposure compensation all of the time with auto ISO. I apply it when I know the cameras metering shall be fooled by the conditions. The cameras metering is trying to meter for 18/19% grey so it’s easily fooled if the frame is too bright or too dark. You need to apply correction otherwise the posture will be too light or dark.
 
In Auto ISO every time you change shutter speed or aperture the ISO changes. So long as you are paying attention to all three parameters you have full control in M + Auto ISO + Exposure Compensation. Which makes it full manual control in my book. (y)
The camera is still changing the ISO automatically, all you've done there is put it a notch or two up or down, the camera is still deciding and changing the exposure for itself, you've just interfered with it a little bit. Now go and stand in the corner and think about what you've done! ;)
 
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The camera is still changing the ISO automatically, all you've done there is put it a notch or two up or down, the camera is still deciding and changing the exposure for itself, you've just interfered with it a little bit. Now go and stand in the corner and think about what you've done! ;)
I will not. :p

In my viewfinder I can see the values for all three parameters and alter them as I see fit. I AM IN FULL MANUAL CONTROL.(y)

TBH I DGAF what mode anyone uses. :LOL:
 
In my viewfinder I can see the values for all three parameters and alter them as I see fit. I AM IN FULL MANUAL CONTROL.(y)
No, the camera is changing the exposure, all you are doing is fighting it a bit. Now if you manually set the shutter speed and aperture, and manually fix the ISO so it will not change no matter where you point your camera lens, then, and only then, are you in FULL MANUAL control of your camera. (y)

Aside from our banter, to be honest, it doesn't matter what mode or settings people use as long as they get the results they want. It just tickles me to think that some of those pedants who believe you can't be a 'proper photographer' unless you shoot in full manual, aren't actually shooting in full manual themselves, as they're using auto ISO! I love the irony of that. :LOL: I use any mode the camera has that I think is best for the particular shot. In fast-changing light conditions the camera will get it right far quicker and more often than I will trying to change manual settings or frantically trying to dial in a bit of + or - EV.

If someone wants to be a 'proper photographer' then they should get to really know their camera and learn how to use the various settings and modes to their full advantage. :)
 
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it also works to achieve the lowest common denominator "Quality" wise. It always works toward capturing fewer photons.
Auto ISO does not work toward capturing fewer photons; the ISO is the last thing that changes, and it only does so as required for a "proper exposure." E.g. in S/Tv you set the SS and the mode allows the camera to change the aperture, when it runs out of range auto ISO kicks in. In A/Av you set the aperture and the mode allows the camera to change the SS (which can be limited), when it runs out of range (or hits the defined limit) auto ISO kicks in. And in M you set both the SS/Ap and the mode doesn't allow the camera to change either, so auto ISO kicks in immediately.

Because none of my cameras have ever allowed limiting the aperture range the camera can choose in S/Tv I won't use that mode. I often use A/Av with SS and ISO limits set for the auto ISO. And when Ap and SS are equally important (like when forcing a slow SS for panning) I will switch to M w/ auto ISO. About the only time I turn off auto ISO is when working with lighting.
 
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Auto ISO does not work toward capturing fewer photons; the ISO is the last thing that changes, and it only does so as required for a "proper exposure." E.g. in S/Tv you set the SS and the mode allows the camera to change the aperture, when it runs out of range auto ISO kicks in. In A/Av you set the aperture and the mode allows the camera to change the SS (which can be limited), when it runs out of range (or hits the defined limit) auto ISO kicks in. And in M you set both the SS/Ap and the mode doesn't allow the camera to change either, so auto ISO kicks in immediately.

Because none of my cameras have ever allowed limiting the aperture range the camera can choose in S/Sv I won't use that mode. I often use A/Av with SS and ISO limits set for the auto ISO. And when Ap and SS are equally important (like when forcing a slow SS for panning) I will switch to M w/ auto ISO. About the only time I turn off auto ISO is when working with lighting.

What the Hell are you on about ??? SS, S/Sv, S/Tv ???

OMG !!! You're a Canon user, aren't you !!!

Respect flown RAPIDLY out of the window ;)

Dave

PS - and for using auto-ISO too :D
 
OK we are nearly there.. lets see if we can get you over the line :)


In my viewfinder I can see the values for all three parameters and alter them as I see fit. I AM IN FULL MANUAL CONTROL.(y)


yes you are :)... BUT THE CAMERA ISN'T !! Its the camera that has the buttons.. its the camera that isn't in full manual.. you are yes in full manual control.. the camera is in a semi auto mode
 
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I can see where Ed is coming from. I set the camera to M on the mode dial with auto ISO. Whilst I’m only able to lock the shutter speed and aperture and the camera selects the ISO value. I can see the ISO value the camera is metering in the viewfinder. When I notice it’s getting too high I lower the shutter speed to bring it down (I cant adjust aperture as I mostly shoot wide open with wildlife). It’s not full manual control but it gives me a better degree of control whilst still letting the camera adjust for changing conditions/light by changing the least important aspect of the exposure triangle.

I know M mode with auto ISO enabled isnt ’full manual’ (and I’ve never said it is). I don’t get the whole full manual thing amongst photographers. To me it just seems to be willy waving from some making out you’re not a ‘proper photographer‘unless you use full manual control. To me you should just use what gets you the image as a camera is just a tool to get images. It doesn’t really matter how you get them as there isn't a hierarchy where a fully manual control photo beats photos taken in other ways. Its the same with camera manufacturers. Photos taken with a certain camera aren’t automatically better than ones taken by another camera.

It just tickles me to think that some of those pedants who believe you can't be a 'proper photographer' unless you shoot in full manual, aren't actually shooting in full manual themselves, as they're using auto ISO! I love the irony of that. :LOL:
what about the fully manual photographers who just centre the cameras meter?
 
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What the Hell are you on about ??? SS, S/Sv, S/Tv ???

OMG !!! You're a Canon user, aren't you !!!

Respect flown RAPIDLY out of the window ;)

Dave

PS - and for using auto-ISO too :D
As Canon were the first to give the world a multi-mode 35mm SLR with P, Av, Tv and M (plus stopped-down AE) with the Canon A1, then I think it's only right that they should have been able to call the various modes whatever they wanted to! ;)
 
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If you are in M mode and Auto iso, and you take a photo and when you look at it the iso is 400 ..... who chose the iso, you did or the camera chose it ... enough said ... :cool:


eerm no you chose it by choosing the other options and exposure compensation to get it to 400.. thats what some are saying..

The mix up as far as I can see is.... some of us are talking about what mode the camera is in.. and some are talking about what mode the user is in :)
 
I will not. :p

In my viewfinder I can see the values for all three parameters and alter them as I see fit. I AM IN FULL MANUAL CONTROL.(y)

TBH I DGAF what mode anyone uses. :LOL:
If your ISOis set to auto you can’t alter it as you see fit.
it’ll change as a reaction to you changing something else. But if you change it: then you’ve taken it off auto.

and again - nor do I give a flying f*** what mode people use; right up until they boast they use Manual and they either use Auto ISO or indeed simply zero the meter manually.
 
You may have a degree of manual control but not FULL manual control. Changes to the meter reading in the milliseconds after you've checked the settings & prior to you pressing the shutter release can completely change the value the camera uses.

Having the ability to spot an automatic setting you don't like & override it is a function of nearly all the (semi) automatic modes. Full manual is where the automatic systems don't even get a look in.

I am interested in what mode photographers use when they've selected a specific mode for a REASON (other than habit).
I generally shoot Av from habit. There are specific times where Sv works better because the time of exposure alters the image more than DOF. There are times when I want full manual control with me specifying aperture, shutter speed & ISO (sometimes also WB, focus etc. too).
I rarely shoot P but can see it could be a great setting for standby.
I curse camera makers for putting in the green full auto mode where I CAN'T alter anything till I've changed mode. IMO this mode is useless to anyone who want's some creative control. My cameras sometimes get knocked onto this mode by mistake & it invariably means missed opportunities.
 
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I agree that auto ISO is not full manual control; but it does not necessarily mean that you do not have the ability to change the ISO the camera uses for any particular image. The meter always determines the "correct exposure;" it doesn't really matter how you get to a different exposure if you disagree with it.
If you are in M mode and Auto iso, and you take a photo and when you look at it the iso is 400 ..... who chose the iso, you did or the camera chose it ... enough said ... :cool:
If I didn't know the camera was using ISO 400 for the image then the camera chose it. If I did know the camera was using ISO 400 for the image then I chose/allowed it. ;)
 
No you may have a degree of manual control but not FULL manual control. Changes to the meter reading in the milliseconds after you've checked the settings & prior to you pressing the shutter release can completely change the value the camera uses.

Having the ability to spot an automatic setting you don't like & override it is a function of nearly all the (semi) automatic modes. Full manual is where the automatic systems don't even get a look in.


You shouldnt start the post with NO when your agreeing wiht me :)
 
You shouldnt start the post with NO when your agreeing wiht me :)
I realised I'd quoted the wrong post & so was busy editing it.
I think it was Ed's post I thought I was replying too. :eggface:
 
OK why not just use a Incident light meter, it shows how rarely the exposure needs to be changed as you move the finder around the scene.

In built meters spend far too much time compensating for the tonality of objects in the image. when it is just this difference in tonality that you are capturing.

Modern cameras are doing their best to emulate the consistency of an incident reading. ( and now do an excellent job as they read just about all the pixels.)

Not that I bother using any of mine, a glance at the histogram tells me what is going on.
 
OK why not just use a Incident light meter, it shows how rarely the exposure needs to be changed as you move the finder around the scene.

In built meters spend far too much time compensating for the tonality of objects in the image. when it is just this difference in tonality that you are capturing.

Modern cameras are doing their best to emulate the consistency of an incident reading. ( and now do an excellent job as they read just about all the pixels.)

Not that I bother using any of mine, a glance at the histogram tells me what is going on.

I was with you until the histogram bit - I NEVER EVER bother with mine, tells me nothing I wish to know :(

I'm a Blinkies fan - Blinkies rule :)

Dave

PS - SOZ OP - I've taken this off-topic - ignore this post
 
With the high degree of disagreement in this thread it is surprising indeed that we ever get usable exposures.
but we all do.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
What we call it matters not at all.
 
I was with you until the histogram bit - I NEVER EVER bother with mine, tells me nothing I wish to know :(

I'm a Blinkies fan - Blinkies rule :)

Dave

PS - SOZ OP - I've taken this off-topic - ignore this post

The histogram tells you the distribution of tones, if that seem different to what you want to achieve , you can then adjust to taste.
 
The histogram tells you the distribution of tones, if that seem different to what you want to achieve , you can then adjust to taste.

My main problem Is that it doesn't tell me where they are, and primarily shooting Weddings it doesn't tell me what's blown only that something is - hence Blinkies works better :)

But yes - it's staggering that so many shoot in so many ways and yet still manage a photo worth having (allegedly) :D

Dave
 
Changes to the meter reading in the milliseconds after you've checked the settings & prior to you pressing the shutter release can completely change the value the camera uses.
And what caused the meter reading to change? Will the altered settings result in a better exposure, or worse?
OK why not just use a Incident light meter, it shows how rarely the exposure needs to be changed as you move the finder around the scene.

In built meters spend far too much time compensating for the tonality of objects in the image. when it is just this difference in tonality that you are capturing.
This really needs to be put into context in terms of the type of photography/situation IMO.

The funny thing is that I generally prefer the exposure error that reflected metering and auto exposure generates. If I have a dark scene/subject the camera will automatically overexpose it recording as much light as possible (ETTR). If I have a bright subject/scene the camera will automatically underexpose it protecting highlights (ETTL). And if I have a mixed subject/scene the camera will balance them and protect highlights (Nikon's highlight weighted metering).
 
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I was with you until the histogram bit - I NEVER EVER bother with mine, tells me nothing I wish to know :(

I agree, life's too short to peel a histogram!

To answer the OP's original question; I used to do gig photography back in the days of film. I'd be using 1000 ISO print film and struggling with low light conditions, plus the camera's meter would be trying to make the shots look like daylight. To get round this, I'd set the shutter speed to 1/125 and let the camera set the aperture as the stage lighting changed, but I'd dial in about a stop of exposure compensation to 'underexpose' the film to retain the atmosphere of the stage lighting and give life-like photos. Hope that makes sense to you?

So that's one example of where exposure compensation can be useful, while allowing the camera to deal with changing lighting conditions. Another example of when to use exposure comp would be snow covered scenes, where standard camera metering could make the snow look grey. (y)
 
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