First camera help

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Paul
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Hello good people and thank you for taking on a complete novice. I'm looking at getting in to photography and have confused myself with reviews.
I have I "think" narrowed down my choices down to 3 cameras that sit in budget £600 -650.

1. Canon 250d kit with 18-55 and 50mm lenses
2. canon 800d with 18-55mm
3. Nikon D5600 with 18-55mm and 70 - 300. this is above the budget but is it worth the extra £50

Anybody using these setups pros and cons. I aware ill need to add new lenses along the way. New to all this so I'll be shooting everything at first. But its main uses will be family, pets, holidays landscapes...
 
Why restrict yourself to DSLRs?

Mirrorless is a more than viable alternative these days.

I'd recommend an Olympus EM10 kit from these people.

It'll get you up & running with a couple of lenses to start with.

https://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/olympus-e-m10-iii-twin-kit-14-42-ez40-150-silver-8060-p.asp

I've got the EM5 MK2 and it's superb and has the same sensor as the EM10 MK3 and, unlike mine, has 4k video recording.

With that kit you'll have a full frame equivalent of between 28mm & 300mm which should suffice to get you started.

Terry.
 
Get a used Nikon d7000 and 50mm 1.8g and a kit zoom lens.
 
Id not really looked at mirrorless camera or Olympus cameras to be fair. Only reason id stuck to nikon and canon dslr cameras was because of the vast number of used lenses etc to cut down on initial set up cost of adding extra kit.
 
The D7000 is a bit to bulky/heavy and is missing a few features im wanting on the camera maily bluetooth/wifi and its a fixed screen.
 
I'd do some further research on Olympus before making any new purchases today: https://fstoppers.com/news/olympus-responds-rumors-its-camera-division-closing-down-428075 [caveat - not read this in detail, but I'd want to know about it if I was considering buying]

I think digital camera manufacturers are struggling, so I'd be inclined to stick with companies that are diversified into other areas (Canon, Fuji) but that's just me.

I was going to suggest a used Fuji X-T2 & 18-55 but then you mentioned bluetooth so that's out. I'm guessing there's a bunch of other reasons you've shortlisted down to those cameras so I won't sugggest others.

So my advice is to get into a shop and hold all the cameras. The 800D looks bigger than the 250D and with so little to choose between them feature-wise, physical handling might be the decider. Compare the Nikon and Canon menu systems to see if one works better for you.

Hope that helps! And welcome to TP!!
 
Id not really looked at mirrorless camera or Olympus cameras to be fair. Only reason id stuck to nikon and canon dslr cameras was because of the vast number of used lenses etc to cut down on initial set up cost of adding extra kit.
Not wise thinking in actual fact , Olympus and Panasonic MFT lenses are interchangeable and in most instances are lighter and a hell of a lot cheaper than either Nikon or canon alternatives .. things have improved in mirrorless extremely rapidly these days and you would be silly to overlook them based on a out of date p.o.v
 
The reports on Olympus are unsubstantiated, they seem to be generated from low confidence sources, at the moment none of the big companies are obviously at risk.

For new mirrorless cameras that I would look at the Olympus E-M10 mk2 / E-M10 mk3 or Panasonic GX80 / GX9, all with a couple of lens. The advantages are the size and weight, bonus are the functionality you get beyond a beginners DSLR.

M4/3 lenses to consider Panasonic 12-32mm ~£100, 25mm 1.7 ~£100, 35-100 f/4-5.6 ~£150: Olympus 14-42 <£100, 40-150R 4-5.6<£100 Prices 2nd hand see MPB & Wex. Maybe for a single lens setup, if you can afford it, a Pana or Oly 14-140/150mm ~£300-400

Secondhand Olympus E-M5 mk2, Panasonic G80 or Fuji X-T1, X-T2 or X-T20 or Sony A6000
Fuji lenses would be 18-55 with 50-230mm

It will come down to what works in you hand and your shooting use cases (sports/wildlife makes more demands on the continuous AF than landscapes or portraits). Get better glass than a better body as most cameras today are in essence very good with individual foibles and we're rather spoiled.
 
Another vote for mirrorless as that seems to be the way the market is going. The only downside with the mirrorless cameras in your budget is with continuous autofocus (which makes shooting moving subjects easier) it won’t be as good as DSLRs of a similar price point.
The Olympus system is great and imo is the perfect balance between size, weight and image quality. The system as a whole can be relatively cheap too.
Another option to consider is the Sony A6xxx, great IQ and very good AF. Lens option isn’t as good as Olympus imo, unless you include the expensive Sony FE range.

These are my best shots taken with my Olympus. Im not a great photographer by any means though ;)
https://flickr.com/photos/99443690@N04/sets/72157711665228782
 
I always suggest that a new photographer could do worse than the 18-55 kit lens and a 70-300 or 55-250 kit lens as it gives them a chance of taking an OK photo of most subjects, and then to add on a nifty fifty prime as their third lens. I tell people once they've shortlisted several cameras to try them and see which seems the more logical to them - I prefer Canon and if someone hands me a Nikon it feels wierd.
 
As @andrewc says, an 18-55 and 55-250 (or 70-300) type kit covers most bases.

Canon/Nikon DSLRs were the most popular for years, but mirrorless is where things seem to be going now. Jessops recently had a good deal on the Fuji X-T20 2 lens kit that would be in the OPs budget.
My advice would be to get to a camera shop and try them in your hands.
 
Just one thing to point out, the Olympus and Panasonic are micro-four-thirds (MFT) cameras and have smaller sensors than the APS sensor cameras in the OP. The thing I would point out is that the smaller the sensor the greater the depth of field, which is good for landscapes and possibly moving subjects (like kids) where you want everything in focus but it does mean that you need faster or longer lenses to throw the background out of focus. Just so you know what you are getting into.

BTW I have both Olympus MFT and full frame cameras and I regularly use both.
 
I'm even more confused lol. Everytime i research the possibilities i find more and more pros and cons.
 
I'm even more confused lol. Everytime i research the possibilities i find more and more pros and cons.
yup
you come here and we all want to spend your money and baffle you, personally I would take up the suggestion of the Oly kit posted by Terry IF I was starting out, seems a good deal, but, as suggested above you really need to handle the different cameras and look at the menus, and ease of use. One mans great camera (for whatever reason) is anothers poor camera.
 
It's really not simple and there is no one-size-fits-all camera. Sensor size is one of those things that people seem not to talk too much about for newcomers but it is a fairly important part of the mix. In a nutshell there are 3 common categories of sensor on removable lens cameras: Full Frame (FF), APS and MFT. The cameras you posted originally are APS and it's a good compromise.

In Full Frame the sensor is the size of the old 35mm film and it's the largest "affordable" sesnor. A bigger sensor means bigger, heavier and more expensive lenses (I'm generalising) but gives you lower noise and shallower depth of field at a given aperture (f-stop). Shallow depth of field is useful for blurring backgrounds and making the subject stand out.

APS is in between FF and MFT

An MFT sensor is half the width of full frame, it gives you greater depth of field, which means more of the scene is in focus and means smaller, lighter and potentially cheaper lenses. It is possible to buy lenses with wide apertures (low f-stop, such as f1.4) that will give blurred backgrounds on MFT sensors.

I'm probably banging on about depth-of-field a bit too much but its one of the things that can make photos from a "proper" camera stand out from photos on a mobile phone.

The thing that ties you in to a camera system is the lenses, not the body, so make sure you are happy with the cameras from the manufacturer you choose, once you have bought 3 or 4 lenses for Nikon or Canon or Fuji or MFT or Sony it's expensive to change. So I would suggest going to a decent shop and getting your hands on all the major models and see what you like in your hands. As I said above I have an Olympus EM5ii which I use quite a lot but I find it too small for my hands and much prefer holding my 6D but the Oly is small and light
 
To try and slightly simplistically put some of what Chris said in a different perspective, if you want a camera system that is smaller, lighter and will generally get lots of stuff in focus then the smaller formats (M43, APS-C) are probably more interesting. They are also good value if you want longer telephoto lenses. If you aren't fussed about size and weight so much but want to be able to use creative effects (like throwing the background out of focus) then APS-C or full frame are likely going to be more interesting. They can also be better value for very wide-wide angle lenses.

We have all 3 formats here. My wife prefers M43 because the camera and lens are relatively tiny and weight little, and she's interested in taking general scenes for memories (though she has a good eye for a picture but no technical interest). I prefer full frame for the creative possiblities, better low-light performance and highly detailed images. Our crop sensor camera gets used occasionally as a spare or travel camera because it's about half the weight of the FF stuff.

Something you should also be aware of is that images need some processing after they have been taken to get the best from them. Often pictures straight from the camera are disappointing because the camera is trying to interpret what you are photographing, averaging everything out according to how it was programmed.

Another thing: consider buying used. You'll get more for your money, and shops usually offer between 6 and 12 months warranty on used gear. But from a reputable dealer with a shop or warehouse, rather than a private seller on ebay, at least at this stage so that you have a reasonable chance of getting faults fixed.
 
agree with toni above about used, camerajungle also have 20% off at the moment
 
Ok ive spent most of this morning looking at mirrorless cameras and dslr options. both new and used camera. I dont think that any of the mirrorless cameras (in my budget) meet the requirements im after im also worried about lens's for the mirrorless cameras as they seem to be few about on the used market with realistically doubling my budget which is not an option for a new hobby.
there has been 1 used camera that seems to meet the specs that after and thats the canon 77d.
Things I am wanting on the camera.
1. reasonable ability to shot in low light
2. reasonable ability to focus on moving objects Pets/kids etc
3 swivel touch screen
4. bluetooth
5. available used lenses and accessories
6. Not going to outgrow it in 6-12 months.
7. reasonable weight
8. buttons that will cope with sausage finger

Anybody using or have used the 77d
 
Ok ive spent most of this morning looking at mirrorless cameras and dslr options. both new and used camera. I dont think that any of the mirrorless cameras (in my budget) meet the requirements im after im also worried about lens's for the mirrorless cameras as they seem to be few about on the used market with realistically doubling my budget which is not an option for a new hobby.
there has been 1 used camera that seems to meet the specs that after and thats the canon 77d.
Things I am wanting on the camera.
1. reasonable ability to shot in low light
2. reasonable ability to focus on moving objects Pets/kids etc
3 swivel touch screen
4. bluetooth
5. available used lenses and accessories
6. Not going to outgrow it in 6-12 months.
7. reasonable weight
8. buttons that will cope with sausage finger

Anybody using or have used the 77d
Can’t think of a great deal of other options (although I’m not au fait with Canon that much) as the swivelling touch screen does narrow options somewhat. From my experience finding a used lens for any of the main camera brands, including mirrorless is not a problem, I’ve always found what I’ve wanted and at the right price.
Have you looked at the differences in DSLR and mirrorless such as the “what you see is what you get” electronic viewfinders and autofocus performance on the LCD, as well as auto switching from viewfinder to LCD. Might not seem big things but can add/detract from the shooting experience.
 
Why do you want bluetooth, what do you think it is going to add? Also I would put a swivel screen and touch screen a long way down the list.

A lot of reasonably modern cameras have WiFi built in and an assoicated phone app, which a) does more than bluetooth would and b) gives you the equivalent of a swivel touch screen anyway.
Concentrate on something that takes good pictures, you can use your phone for the rest
 
Can’t think of a great deal of other options (although I’m not au fait with Canon that much) as the swivelling touch screen does narrow options somewhat. From my experience finding a used lens for any of the main camera brands, including mirrorless is not a problem, I’ve always found what I’ve wanted and at the right price.
Have you looked at the differences in DSLR and mirrorless such as the “what you see is what you get” electronic viewfinders and autofocus performance on the LCD, as well as auto switching from viewfinder to LCD. Might not seem big things but can add/detract from the shooting experience.

Still trying to get my head around all technical and terminology of photography but if I'm right about what your asking the yes the 77d has a eye sensor the auto switches to the to the view finder and dims the lcd. Yes there is some lenses available but but initial buget is around £650 for a body and lens. most of the mirrorless with a reasonable spec and lens are realistically out of my budget. without basic spec that id possibly out grow quickly..
 
I'm surprised no one has suggested going to a shop and handling the bodies you are interested in as the ergonomics is also important as you will spend a lot of time holding it and you want it to be comfortable.
Something else to check out is the menu system as well.
I got back into photography last year after a very long gap.
As I had been a Canon user I knew that I would be able to find my way around the menu system albeit with additional features.
I also like Canon L lenses so it was a no brainer for me to go with Canon again.
I didn't even consider a mirrorless system as I knew what I wanted.
Having said that I keep thinking about a smaller, cheaper used Fujifilm set up for holidays.
 
Why do you want bluetooth, what do you think it is going to add? Also I would put a swivel screen and touch screen a long way down the list.

A lot of reasonably modern cameras have WiFi built in and an assoicated phone app, which a) does more than bluetooth would and b) gives you the equivalent of a swivel touch screen anyway.
Concentrate on something that takes good pictures, you can use your phone for the rest

You probably right and they are pointless features im just trying to get the best body i can for the budget ive set myself. can will over time add better lenses and body but im not willing at this time to spend thousands on a new hobby.
 
I have the 77D. I have only owned it for just over a year. There nothing bad to say about it. I would say buy the cheapest DSLR and learn what you like and don’t like. Spend the remaining money on a better lens like the sigma 17-50 f2.8 OS and a prime and a zoom. You are going to have to spend money on a photo editor and computer equipmen. It’s an expensive hobby!
 
I'm surprised no one has suggested going to a shop and handling the bodies you are interested in as the ergonomics is also important as you will spend a lot of time holding it and you want it to be comfortable.
Something else to check out is the menu system as well.
see my post above #17 ;)
 
I'm surprised no one has suggested going to a shop and handling the bodies you are interested in as the ergonomics is also important as you will spend a lot of time holding it and you want it to be comfortable.
Something else to check out is the menu system as well.
I got back into photography last year after a very long gap.
As I had been a Canon user I knew that I would be able to find my way around the menu system albeit with additional features.
I also like Canon L lenses so it was a no brainer for me to go with Canon again.
I didn't even consider a mirrorless system as I knew what I wanted.
Having said that I keep thinking about a smaller, cheaper used Fujifilm set up for holidays.
ive been to a few shops and the canon 800d and the 250d both felt right in my hand i went and had a hold of the canon 70d but it was just to big and heavy for what Im wanting. looking at the 77d it seems to have the features im after and basically the same body as the 800d with a few features.
 
I have the 77D. I have only owned it for just over a year. There nothing bad to say about it. I would say buy the cheapest DSLR and learn what you like and don’t like. Spend the remaining money on a better lens like the sigma 17-50 f2.8 OS and a prime and a zoom. You are going to have to spend money on a photo editor and computer equipmen. It’s an expensive hobby!

Has it left you wanting for a missing basic features.
 
Still trying to get my head around all technical and terminology of photography but if I'm right about what your asking the yes the 77d has a eye sensor the auto switches to the to the view finder and dims the lcd. Yes there is some lenses available but but initial buget is around £650 for a body and lens. most of the mirrorless with a reasonable spec and lens are realistically out of my budget. without basic spec that id possibly out grow quickly..
I’d double check the live view thing, no DSLR I’m aware of does this automatically, except for the Sony SLT’s but they’re DSLT’s not DSLRs. However if you’ve had hands on with the Canon and you felt it was right that’s what matters most.
At the end of the day all the cameras mentioned will take great photos when used right.
 
Still trying to get my head around all technical and terminology of photography but if I'm right about what your asking the yes the 77d has a eye sensor the auto switches to the to the view finder and dims the lcd. Yes there is some lenses available but but initial buget is around £650 for a body and lens. most of the mirrorless with a reasonable spec and lens are realistically out of my budget. without basic spec that id possibly out grow quickly..
In terms of kit it depends what you’re after and where you look.
Olympus EM10-II £215 used
Olympus 14-42mm pancake zoom £110 used
Olympus 40-150mm f4-5.6R £80 used
Olympus 45mm f1.8 £105 used.

That comes to £510 so money left over. The EM10-II isn’t really a basic camera by any means, the only thing it’s not strong at is moving targets.

Sony A6000 £230 used
Sony 16-50mm oss £90 used
Sony 55-210mm £ £160 used
Sony fe 50mm f1.8 £160 used.

Total £640.

Now I’m not trying to talk you out of Canon here, all I’m showing you is there’s a lot of options available if you start looking (y)
 
On the other hand, how about a Canon full frame DSLR bargain? A used Canon 6D Mk1 from MPB or other reputable dealer, and a good used EF 40mm STM pancake lens to get you started. If you shop around and are patient you should be able to get both for about £650 to £700 in excellent to mint- condition. You'll then have a full frame DSLR with good low light capabilities and a sound platform to build on, and a camera you can grow into as you learn, rather than a basic model that you may outgrow before too long.

You can then save up for something like a mintish used Canon EF 24-105 L IS zoom. Do remember that Canon EOS full frame DSLRs don't take the EF-S range of lenses though. Might be worth thinking about, as that's a lot of camera for the money, and the 6D has a habit of producing very nice looking photos. I find a 40mm lens more useful than a 50mm lens on a full frame camera too, as a 50mm can often be just a bit 'tight' in its framing.
 
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On the other hand, how about a Canon full frame DSLR bargain? A used Canon 6D Mk1 from MPB or other reputable dealer, and a good used EF 40mm STM pancake lens to get you started. If you shop around and are patient you should be able to get both for about £650 to £700 in excellent to mint- condition. You'll then have a full frame DSLR with good low light capabilities and a sound platform to build on, and a camera you can grow into as you learn, rather than a basic model that you may outgrow before too long.

You can then save up for something like a mintish used Canon EF 24-105 L IS zoom. Do remember that Canon EOS full frame DSLRs don't take the EF-S range of lenses though. Might be worth thinking about, as that's a lot of camera for the money, and the 6D has a habit of producing very nice looking photos. I find a 40mm lens more useful than a 50mm lens on a full frame camera too, as a 50mm can often be just a bit 'tight' in its framing.
On that basis I’ll add the go to camera for pros in the recent past, the good old Nikon D700 which can be had for around £350 used.

However, as the 70d was too big and heavy then both these options will be too, hence why I think mirrorless is the best option, and especially m4/3. That weight saving is a god send imo. My wildlife setup has gone from 3kg to 1.4kg and IQ is comparable (y)
 
Has it left you wanting for a missing basic features.
No but I am quite old fashioned! :giggle:. I don’t really make much use of the video function. My main reason for buying this camera was that the sensor was a significant improvement from previous Canon sensors (esp compared to my 450D). Plus it has a many more AF points which is useful for shooting portraits with fast glass. (e.g f1.4)
 
In terms of kit it depends what you’re after and where you look.
Olympus EM10-II £215 used
Olympus 14-42mm pancake zoom £110 used
Olympus 40-150mm f4-5.6R £80 used
Olympus 45mm f1.8 £105 used.

That comes to £510 so money left over. The EM10-II isn’t really a basic camera by any means, the only thing it’s not strong at is moving targets.

Sony A6000 £230 used
Sony 16-50mm oss £90 used
Sony 55-210mm £ £160 used
Sony fe 50mm f1.8 £160 used.

Total £640.

Now I’m not trying to talk you out of Canon here, all I’m showing you is there’s a lot of options available if you start looking (y)

options are why my head is mashed

I know how the newbies on car forums feel now lol
 
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I am curious to know why you want a DSLR? Most people are happy with their smartphone.
 
I am curious to know why you want a DSLR? Most people are happy with their smartphone.

Ive built project cars for years. earlier this year i had to give up my workshop. Ive always loved a good photograph. Im the type of person who needs to challenge myself more than other people..
But i need something to challenge my creative side and make me think about improving the outcome. I need something as a escape from the working life. The reason ive set a budget is not because i can not afford it but everything is easier if you chuck thousands at it and thats not a challenge...
Also will i stick at it if its not for me..
 
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