Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

Camera repairs are a separate issue. Guarantee repairs of tenses are are mostly funded by the manufacturer. Body guarantee repairs are fuded by the official importer. Other repairs are paid cash by who ever.

Fuji repair centre seems to work rather differently when it comes to charging, as they have set prices to cover whatever is wrong rather than itemised parts and labour. And the couple of times that I have used them were incredibly fast and efficient.

Official repair centres are of course In competition with independent repairers, which in terms of labour costs keeps them competitive
 
KitsuneAndy said:
If I could get a 3 year warranty on an official UK body at the time of buying then I'd just do that anyway. I always check on wex etc before ordering in case there are any offers on.

You say 3 years warranty isn't a big deal, but my 35 distagon went out of alignment twice. Both outside of 1 year but within 3.

Panamoz paid for both repairs, which came to about how much I bought the lens for!
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I didn't mean t say 3 years warranty isn't useful but meant to say for Sony you can get extended warranty within the UK itself without needing to resort to grey imports. So panamoz providing 3 years isn't much of an attraction since I can get extended warranty in the UK.

At the moment Sony are doing 2 years warranty on most things anyway....
If you need even more call a few places and see if anyone will throw in the extended warranty card for free:
www.wexphotovideo.com

Sony 3 Year Extended Warranty - RX and Alpha Body | Wex Photo Video

www.wexphotovideo.com

I have found one of them always will....

For me the issue was not warranty but availability in the UK (for bodies anyway). For example I got the A7C nearly two months before I could get it in the UK so I could take it for my holiday trip.
 
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nandbytes said:
I didn't mean t say 3 years warranty isn't useful but meant to say for Sony you can get extended warranty within the UK itself without needing to resort to grey imports. So panamoz providing 3 years isn't much of an attraction since I can get extended warranty in the UK.

At the moment Sony are doing 2 years warranty on most things anyway....
If you need even more call a few places and see if anyone will throw in the extended warranty card for free:
www.wexphotovideo.com

Sony 3 Year Extended Warranty - RX and Alpha Body | Wex Photo Video

www.wexphotovideo.com

I have found one of them always will....

For me the issue was not warranty but availability in the UK (for bodies anyway). For example I got the A7C nearly two months before I could get it in the UK so I could take it for my holiday trip.
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Almost all extended warranties are in reality an insurance cover against failures. companies will throw them in as a cheap(to them) discount. they buy the insurance as a bulk policy. some but not all cover accidental damage as well.
 
sphexx said:
On a different tack, much has been said of the evil price fixing manufacturers and their allies but some have said they’ve had repairs carried out at official repair places here and paid for by Panamoz etc. so who maintains these official repair places? Could it be the evil manufacturers?
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The Official UK Nikon and Canon place is A J Johnstone - which is a private company not owned by Canon or Nikon - but a small independent business.

Fixation etc also repair cameras - and they're wholly NOT owned by the manufacturer.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Almost all extended warranties are in reality an insurance cover against failures. companies will throw them in as a cheap(to them) discount. they buy the insurance as a bulk policy. some but not all cover accidental damage as well.
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yep that's all it is. I bought the dji extended warranty because it actually covers accidental damage and drone fly away cover. Otherwise I don't bother.
I have camera insurance for my gear which covers everything from theft to accidental damage to out-of-warranty repairs. That is is my main backup for any mishaps, extended warranty if and when I get it for free is a cherry on top.

I only got my drone this year so not sure what to do next year when dji care runs out. Drone insurance looks expensive for full cover (at least it was to add it on to my current policy).
 
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SFTPhotography said:
The Official UK Nikon and Canon place is A J Johnstone - which is a private company not owned by Canon or Nikon - but a small independent business.

Fixation etc also repair cameras - and they're wholly NOT owned by the manufacturer.
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In the end it doesn’t make much difference who owns the repair shop, it all depends on where their income comes from. Is it nearly all from the manufactures or out of warranty repairers or “grey importers. I certainly don‘t know.
 
nandbytes said:
yep that's all it is. I bought the dji extended warranty because it actually covers accidental damage and drone fly away cover. Otherwise I don't bother.
I have camera insurance for my gear which covers everything from theft to accidental damage to out-of-warranty repairs. That is is my main backup for any mishaps, extended warranty if and when I get it for free is a cherry on top.

I only got my drone this year so not sure what to do next year when dji care runs out. Drone insurance looks expensive for full cover (at least it was to add it on to my current policy).
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I think most extended warranties (not just cameras) are external insurance policies thou it doesn’t make much difference if they are good. Of course for all we know a manufacturer could be backing their warranties via insurance, probably not the likes of Canon but who knows, it all depends on the economics. A lot of camera stuff is rebadged and not actually directly manufactured by the “name” on the lens and I’m sure we don’t know whether Canó, say, recharges warranty expenses to their suppliers in some way. It al depends on the economics ;).
 
sphexx said:
In the end it doesn’t make much difference who owns the repair shop, it all depends on where their income comes from. Is it nearly all from the manufactures or out of warranty repairers or “grey importers. I certainly don‘t know.
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A mix. A big mix. From simple sensor cleans, to warranty and out of warranty claims.

I've owned 7 full frame Nikons, 2 APSC Nikon bodies and 2 Pentax MF digital bodies. Not one has needed a repair other than a sensor clean.

I've made one warranty claim ever - and that was for a Ziess Lens sourced new from Robert White Photographic here in Blighted.

Given the inherent reliability of Japanese camera equipment I can't imagine warranty work would keep places like A J Johnstone going.
 
fujilover said:
I think this thread is causing ill feeling on the forum, can we get it shut down ?
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No, if I shut down every thread that people disagreed in, there wouldn't be many left.
No one is getting nasty, maybe a little sarcastic at times, but that's about it.
 
ecoleman said:
not always
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That’s the problem with the internet, when you’re right you’re still wrong:) So When you buy from Amazon you pay VAT etc when it is due.

Better?
 
sphexx said:
That’s the problem with the internet, when you’re right you’re still wrong:) So When you buy from Amazon you pay VAT etc when it is due.

Better?
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Lots of Amazon marketplace sellers that should be charging and paying over VAT but don't.
How many of your Amazon purchases from marketplace sellers do you confirm their vat status before buying?

Lots of big eBay sellers that should be VAT registered too but aren't.
 
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ecoleman said:
Lots of Amazon marketplace sellers that should be charging and paying over VAT but don't.
How many of your Amazon purchases from marketplace sellers do you confirm their vat status before buying?

Lots of big eBay sellers that should be VAT registered too but aren't.
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Ah, that’s true.
 
SFTPhotography said:
eBay is an interesting one.

I've bought two items from overseas on eBay. A 5ds and a 645z lens. The 5ds from the US and the lens from Japan.

Both times the seller was made to charge me customs duties adding quite a premium to the price - ie 20% or so.
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I think that's eBay's enforcement than the seller's choice
 
SFTPhotography said:
eBay is an interesting one.

I've bought two items from overseas on eBay. A 5ds and a 645z lens. The 5ds from the US and the lens from Japan.

Both times the seller was made to charge me customs duties adding quite a premium to the price - ie 20% or so.
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EBay. I bought a small photographic thing (maybe a ’thumb grip’) from the US and was charged duty or VAT plus a handling charge via Royal Mail.
 
Sharps said:
Has this sold now?
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Me² said:
This is an interesting point that’s also crossed my mind, but then you’d have to consider avoiding using Amazon, Google, Facebook, Costa, Vodafone etc. The list of companies with questionable moral stances on tax goes well beyond getting cheap cameras from Hong Kong unfortunately.
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I think the morality argument would be valid if we had a moral government which were beyond reproach on all things moral. As always it’s the working sods that pay their taxes, whereas our leaders continually have their snouts in the trough and look after their cronies, much to the detriment of the majority. I for one would have no qualms buying grey.
 
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jimgallaher said:
I think the morality argument would be valid if we had a moral government
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Morality is independent of who does what, to whom & when ... it is an inherent quality that relates to the nature of human existence.
 
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droj said:
All the (somewhat tortured) justifications that I read seem to be based on the premise that 'if it's to my advantage, then it must be ok'. That isn't a sensible basis for a society.
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Again, once our elected representatives set an example, then I for one will be happy to follow, its not gonna happen though .
 
droj said:
All the (somewhat tortured) justifications that I read seem to be based on the premise that 'if it's to my advantage, then it must be ok'. That isn't a sensible basis for a society.
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Can you honestly say that you haven't bought something, be it trainers or clothing that wasn't produced in an exploitative sweatshop in Bangladesh or Vietnam ? Was your (somewhat tortured ) decision to purchase said articles based on morality, or cost ?
 
That’s the bottom line ultimately for us all, morality is for most of us, most of the time, an abstract concept. The reality is this is a dog eat dog world, more so now than in the past. Jeez I’m getting very cynical in my old age
 
But if I need a T-shirt (I need a T-shirt, ok?), I can only buy it from a shop, so I'm limited by what's in the shops. But here, the discussion's about cameras that hardly anyone needs and for which there are clearly-defined supply options ...
 
ecoleman said:
Lots of Amazon marketplace sellers that should be charging and paying over VAT but don't.
How many of your Amazon purchases from marketplace sellers do you confirm their vat status before buying?

Lots of big eBay sellers that should be VAT registered too but aren't.
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Just for you :), I’ve been through the last couple of pages of my Amazon purchases and VAT has been paid on all. I don’t think I buy from many marketplace sellers — used books comes to mind but I think they are VAT free.
 
SFTPhotography said:
eBay is an interesting one.

I've bought two items from overseas on eBay. A 5ds and a 645z lens. The 5ds from the US and the lens from Japan.

Both times the seller was made to charge me customs duties adding quite a premium to the price - ie 20% or so.
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And how would they pay them? Mostly customers duties are not even payable on digital cameras.
 
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I went out and took some actual photos today , all the leaves were brown and the sky was grey hmmmmm
 
SFTPhotography said:
eBay pays them - they collect the duty and pass it to the relevant authorities.

If you've bought stuff from oversea's on eBay you'll understand.
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I didn’t know that. I know they do it with sales taxes etc in the USA. Their site seems to imply they didn’t do it in the U.K. until 2021:

Sales into and within the UK​

From 1 January 2021, the UK introduced legislation which shifts the responsibility for collecting VAT for online purchases from sellers to marketplaces such as eBay in certain circumstances.

  1. eBay is obliged to collect UK VAT on goods sold through eBay to UK customers in the following circumstances:
    • Goods imported into the UK, with a parcel value of up to £135. Note that there is no longer a VAT exemption for small consignments up to £15
    • Goods of any value sold by a non-UK seller, and shipped from inventory stored in the UK. Sellers may still have UK VAT obligations, and should consult their tax advisors for further information
    If an order fits either of these criteria, neither sellers nor carriers should collect VAT from UK buyers. eBay will collect the VAT from the buyer and remit it to HMRC.

Taxes and import charges

When you sell on eBay, you're responsible for complying with all applicable tax laws. If you ship a package internationally, you should inform them about the potential import charges they'll need to pay when they receive their item. The import charges are usually due once the package arrives in...
www.ebay.co.uk www.ebay.co.uk
 
Funnily enough when I used to be global moderator on a metal detecting forum (far far worse than camera forums) the one thing that revived things was a thread like this with lots of varying views ( nice way to put it )
 
Surely two issues are being conflated here? I have always thought "grey" does not equal not tax evasion or smuggling - which is clearly wrong. It means it is sourced from somewhere other than the official country of sale distributor - which is clearly not.

Lots of companies and traders - irrespective of where they source their goods - don't pay enough tax either legally or otherwise. The law. needs to be tightened re large scale corporate tax avoidance Smugglers and tax thieves steal from the rest of us and no amount of rationalisation about the ethics of government will change that. They should be prosecuted. Annoyingly, they are often the type of hypocritical freeloaders who complain about "benefit scroungers" etc. Unfortunately it is widespread. Do you use Vodafone? BT? How's your local plumber? Do you get a VAT invoice from him?

Back to grey. In any country, the official distributor is only a group set up by the manufacturer to deal with their business there. It enables them to carry out operations locally while at the same time charging a premium to cover repairs, admin etc. This is a private arrangement by the company. If you choose to step outside this protected network, you're on your own, but you're most certainly not a criminal or immoral: well, except in internet forums!

Two examples.

In the UK, HDEW are a grey importer with a physical building in the UK. You can go there, you can speak to them on the phone etc. They support a local football team and they give you a VAT receipt. They aren't shady operators hiding in the shadows fiddling their taxes. They're a local UK business. Support them.

In the US B&H or Adorama advertise (or used to, I haven't looked lately) two choices when purchasing: you can either buy "official" goods sourced via the distributor or "gray". The latter are cheaper but don't carry manufacturers back up. These shops aren't criminals either.

Don't drink the corporate Kool Aid. You pays your money and you take your choices. What's the big deal?
 
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