Grey Imports

[petert]

grey imports are NOT illegal. yes theres certain rules behind them but essentially it is rights exhaustion and once that is in motion then there is no issue legally buying grey goods.
the issue comes more for the consumer in terms of warranty, and sometimes product packaging ( non UK plug, no instruction manual etc)
some people may also get confused between grey goods and white box goods which are totally different.

However the key factor here. is show me a retailer or reseller that specifically states the good are grey imports.
its very easy to chuck out comments like ignorance , but in all honesty how many people when looking to buy a product online do a whois search to find out the source of the product and the registered company details.
people love a bargain.pure and simple. ( why do you think ebay is so popular ) . but can you honestly say if you buy second hand you know the provenance of a piece of gear. and if it turns out the original source is a grey overseas are you then an accessory to tax evasion too?
and buying new isnt much different. its quite clear UK stores sell grey imports too soo unless you ask to see there accounts ( which they arent going to show you then its down to accepting what they state and not lose any sleep over it.

Exactly some dont seem to understand that so throw ignorance about rather than seeing the whole picture

 

[Jackwow]

If I buy off Panamoz etc I am buying an illegal import as they are not paying UK tax and vat.

Their website states that they pay all tax and duty. It's not the customers responsibility to check if they do or do not.

 

[taxboy]

grey imports are NOT illegal. yes theres certain rules behind them but essentially it is rights exhaustion and once that is in motion then there is no issue legally buying grey goods.
the issue comes more for the consumer in terms of warranty, and sometimes product packaging ( non UK plug, no instruction manual etc)
some people may also get confused between grey goods and white box goods which are totally different.

However the key factor here. is show me a retailer or reseller that specifically states the good are grey imports.
its very easy to chuck out comments like ignorance , but in all honesty how many people when looking to buy a product online do a whois search to find out the source of the product and the registered company details.
people love a bargain.pure and simple. ( why do you think ebay is so popular ) . but can you honestly say if you buy second hand you know the provenance of a piece of gear. and if it turns out the original source is a grey overseas are you then an accessory to tax evasion too?
and buying new isnt much different. its quite clear UK stores sell grey imports too soo unless you ask to see there accounts ( which they arent going to show you then its down to accepting what they state and not lose any sleep over it.

What you say is pretty much true grey imprts per se are not illegal. Grey imports without import duty & VAT are.
However what I'm driving at are people who read the forums find a cheap deal, perhaps don't fully understand what's going on but in their heart of hearts know it's not really right. They then go on justify to themselves that the big saving is nothing to do will illegality and then hide behind a thin veil of ignorance.

For the sake of clarity I have no objections to any reseller of grey stuff who has paid ALL their taxes on the item. The buyer might or might not have warranty issues but then most people spending that sort of money do some research

 

[petert]

Where's the Simon brigade? Answers to that on a postcard ) mine.said import, tax duties paid so how am i responsible? Simon? I think virtually being.called a theif far more ignorant

 

[simonbarker]

Where's the Simon brigade? Answers to that on a postcard ) mine.said import, tax duties paid so how am i responsible? Simon? I think virtually being.called a theif far more ignorant

I've already explained this to you repeatedly, I didn't call you a thief, I called you a hypocrite which is a comment I still stand behind.

You've wasted an opportunity to learn something just so you could try to win on the internet, congratulations.

 

[petert]

You assumed I've bought something totally illegal or that's the impression I got, and as many greys are not illegal you decided I'm a hypocrite, you said.they were illegal and I'm the one breaking the law, as I said earlier, one needs to get their facts right, the theif bit wasn't you

 

[dean messenger]

What you say is pretty much true grey imprts per se are not illegal. Grey imports without import duty & VAT are.
However what I'm driving at are people who read the forums find a cheap deal, perhaps don't fully understand what's going on but in their heart of hearts know it's not really right. They then go on justify to themselves that the big saving is nothing to do will illegality and then hide behind a thin veil of ignorance.

For the sake of clarity I have no objections to any reseller of grey stuff who has paid ALL their taxes on the item. The buyer might or might not have warranty issues but then most people spending that sort of money do some research

im sure the same can be said about many self employed photographers when filling out there tax returns and claims adding a little bit here and there for various expenses and whatnot.
just the way of the world and the richer you are the more "loopholes" you find to keep a grip on your pounds and pence

 

[petert]

Your never going.stop loopholes and illegals and you say I'm sure (no offence to pros on the forum) there's a few or more that don't get their gear totally legally, it's the way things have and always will be so it does annoy me when some pump on about grey imports when they don't even know what they're talking about but are quick to slate others and make assumptions

 

[petert]

Do these people read the small.print on a packet of crisps or a tube of toothpaste everytime they buy one? Or ask tesco where they got from? Hello come to earth.
MY point being you buy what you need or what you want, no one in there right mind thinks is it this,that or the other.

 

[DemiLion]

You can bleat as much as you want. You know it's tax evasion (VAT avoidance), we know it's tax evasion and Panamoz sure as hell know - otherwise they wouldn't make up those nice little incorrectly valued bills of lading and they'd be able to provide a VAT receipt.

There nothing worse than a blind fool and Fracster was right on the money - boasting doubles that idiocy!

 

[petert]

There's more than one

 

[rob-nikon]

Grey imports is always a contentious issue on here and there has been many of these type of threads. I can understand why people do both and I'm not going to get into that argument here.

HDEW are an interesting case, they say import tax paid if asked to provide a VAT receipt and have a uk tax number but they have a very interesting small print hidden at the bottom of their f&q page:

"INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS. Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered."

You can find it at the bottom of this page. It's interesting as they say they make arrangements to clear customs but can still beat other uk shop prices. They don't seem to be as cheap as Panamoz so there must be something in how their businesses differ.

I think it is a case of knowing the differences between the two and how those differences have come about so everyone can make their own informed decision. If you do want to buy grey then HDEW are a uk business if you want to support uk business.

I do understand comments about if you do it don't boast on an Internet forum, it's probably enough for the tax man to prove you knew what you were doing if they ever do get their act together enough to come after the little guys.

 

[petert]

Grey imports is always a contentious issue on here and there has been many of these type of threads. I can understand why people do both and I'm not going to get into that argument here.

HDEW are an interesting case, they say import tax paid if asked to provide a VAT receipt and have a uk tax number but they have a very interesting small print hidden at the bottom of their f&q page:

"INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS. Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered."

You can find it at the bottom of this page. It's interesting as they say they make arrangements to clear customs but can still beat other uk shop prices. They don't seem to be as cheap as Panamoz so there must be something in how their businesses differ.

I think it is a case of knowing the differences between the two and how those differences have come about so everyone can make their own informed decision. If you do want to buy grey then HDEW are a uk business if you want to support uk business.

I do understand comments about if you do it don't boast on an Internet forum, it's probably enough for the tax man to prove you knew what you were doing if they ever do get their act together enough to come after the little guys.

I think they would have bigger fish to fry and proving it more costly than it would be worth, knocking on individuals doors to check their cameras? real world and fantasy keep it real, why are these companies still going if so illegal?

 

[petert]

I think some in here have interests in UK retailers:-o that's why it bothers them so much? Not genuine everyday consumers.
You trying to scare people that HRMC will come knocking on your door asking to see your camera what a load of bull
NAIL ON THE HEAD

 

[rob-nikon]

I think they would have bigger fish to fry and proving it more costly than it would be worth, knocking on individuals doors to check their cameras? real world and fantasy keep it real, why are these companies still going if so illegal?

Hence saying 'if they get their act together to come after the little guys'. I think it would be easier going after the sellers rather than the consumer as there would be great impact for a lot less effort. Currently it is probably a small percentage of uk sales, but as uk sales dwindle compared to grey import it becomes a bigger issue for the tax man and it may start to become worth their while to go after these grey import companies.

The best thing for uk suppliers would be to scrap VAT to created a fair playing field in this global sales age of the internet. If this was done then there wouldn't be a demand for cheaper grey imports. The issue for government would be where do you then increase tax to compensate to pay for education, NHS, pensions etc.

 

[petert]

It's not a camera problem though is it,grey or illegal imports go way beyond cameras to the point them being a tiny percentage. Where there's people there's greed and.money it will never end grey import cameras are nothing in the scale of things

 

[rob-nikon]

I think some in here have interests in UK retailers:-o that's why it bothers them so much? Not genuine everyday consumers.
You trying to scare people that HRMC will come knocking on your door asking to see your camera what a load of bull
NAIL ON THE HEAD

It's well known this forum has a great mix of pros, amateurs and people who work in the photography industry. It's one of the reasons why this forum is so good. I don't blame anyone involved in the uk supplied industry to be slightly concerned, it is after all something they are trying to compete against with one hand tied against their back. There is a similar issue with pubs and supermarkets, pub pay extra tax that increase their prices. The result had been record number of pubs closing down as consumer drink cheaper at home. I'm sure if the industry you work/worked in was affected by something similar you would have something to say too. It's only natural for people to stand up for something that directly affects them.

I've not said the HMRC are going to be knocking on peoples doors asking to look at their cameras. like others I said its daft if I said I currently do something that is not exactly within current tax laws on an open Internet forum that has a real name logged. It's not scaring people, it's just common sense.

There are always two sides to a coin and it's worth knowing both to be able to make an informed decision. It up to each consumer what they decide to do.

By the way I have no connection with the photographic industry other than being a keen ammateur.

 

[rob-nikon]

It's not a camera problem though is it,grey or illegal imports go way beyond cameras to the point them being a tiny percentage. Where there's people there's greed and.money it will never end grey import cameras are nothing in the scale of things

It probably is currently a small percentage of overall camera sales but within the photography sales industry in the uk it's becoming an increasing problem. As more people go with grey imports the problem starts to become more important. It's not just the loss of tax but uk jobs and revenue these uk businesses bring. These jobs won't just be at camera shops but at the uk or European headquarters of the likes of nikon, canon etc. why would they need a uk or European base if it's all supplied by their Asia base? That could have a knock on effect on things like photography shows (the last place you get to 'try before you buy' now all high street shops have closed down), the big players no longer have a base in those countries to sponsor those events so they just don't bother. Perhaps the Asia base would sponsor the events to keep the interest.

Of course this is all just guessing at what the future holds, but it does seem we all want something for nothing in the short term and don't care about the long term.

What interests me is how HDEW can complete yet still pay uk import taxes. If it is legally possible why can't others liked WEX, calumet, camera world etc do the same then the grey market would disappear as there would be this price difference. The issue is really how do uk suppliers compete in a market that has them at a disadvantage from the start. VAT was started at a time where global purchasing and importing was not a few clicks of a button away for the common man, the internet changed that but VAT did not changed, and that is where the problem lies.

Perhaps the solution is really to tax everyone at point of income in one payment rather than here there and every where like the current system is. The problem being you would soon see how much 'hidden' tax you actually pay and that political party would never get in again.

 

[dean messenger]

while doing some hunting regarding grey imports what surprised me was you can grey import cars! . now obviously certain cars ar designed for specific countries ( left hand or right hand drive being one huge obvious difference ) but strikes me as a very unusual thing to be classed as a grey import ( not something easily popped in the post and delivered by DHL either!)
do find some of the comments above rather harsh ( tax evasion criminal and as bad as stealing / stolen goods ). im sure there are many innocent individuals out there who unknowingly buy grey imports ( whatever the product may be ( even dvds are region coded so i guess could be classed as grey). i thnk we have to accept the fact ( and im sure HMRC do to a point ) that since the dawn of the internet and the WWW age we are in shopping has changed considerably and drastically in the last 10-15 years or so. the money spent online now ( black friday spending was over $50 billion ) its a seriously ridiculous amount of money and invariably there will be loopholes and workarounds and people will hunt for the best prices online regardless of goods be in camera gear, clothing, white goods, small electrical items etc.
And its not just the end user either. having worked in online retail ( computer storage over 14,000 products ) sure we got alot from UK suppliers, but we also had a number of "grey" china imports ( hard drive enclosures, cables and and the like ) that were imported VAT free ( covered allegedly by the manufacturer whom we purchased direct from ). These were not UK designated items ( also a company in the US would send us items where the warranty was not EU covered as they were US only intended items ( again falls back to the rights of exhaustion laws ) .
So much like cheap ecig clones coming out of china at a fraction of the cost ( as much as people complain about them and the effect it has on authentic products ( cloning far worse than grey imports ) it is in this day an age an area of trade and online shopping that is here to stay, but buying grey doesnt make you a criminal , a thief or a bad person and the simple fact is no one is forcing you to buy grey goods , its freedom of choice .
interesting article here though in regard to various cases and well worth a read ( if a bit lengthy )
http://www.brownejacobson.com/about_us/press_office/articles/controlling_the_grey_market_e.aspx

 

[rob-nikon]

It's not a camera problem though is it,grey or illegal imports go way beyond cameras to the point them being a tiny percentage. Where there's people there's greed and.money it will never end grey import cameras are nothing in the scale of things

One reason why this issue applies to the photographic industry is cameras/lenses are very small, high end, expensive commodities that can easily and relatively cheaply be shipped around the world. Just think how many cameras/lens can fit in a container/aircraft hold compared to similar priced items like sofas and dining tables. There is also the relatively short life of a cameras before the must have next 'upgrade' model comes out 1-2 years later.

 

[rob-nikon]

while doing some hunting regarding grey imports what surprised me was you can grey import cars! . now obviously certain cars ar designed for specific countries ( left hand or right hand drive being one huge obvious difference ) but strikes me as a very unusual thing to be classed as a grey import ( not something easily popped in the post and delivered by DHL either!)
do find some of the comments above rather harsh ( tax evasion criminal and as bad as stealing / stolen goods ). im sure there are many innocent individuals out there who unknowingly buy grey imports ( whatever the product may be ( even dvds are region coded so i guess could be classed as grey). i thnk we have to accept the fact ( and im sure HMRC do to a point ) that since the dawn of the internet and the WWW age we are in shopping has changed considerably and drastically in the last 10-15 years or so. the money spent online now ( black friday spending was over $50 billion ) its a seriously ridiculous amount of money and invariably there will be loopholes and workarounds and people will hunt for the best prices online regardless of goods be in camera gear, clothing, white goods, small electrical items etc.
And its not just the end user either. having worked in online retail ( computer storage over 14,000 products ) sure we got alot from UK suppliers, but we also had a number of "grey" china imports ( hard drive enclosures, cables and and the like ) that were imported VAT free ( covered allegedly by the manufacturer whom we purchased direct from ). These were not UK designated items ( also a company in the US would send us items where the warranty was not EU covered as they were US only intended items ( again falls back to the rights of exhaustion laws ) .
So much like cheap ecig clones coming out of china at a fraction of the cost ( as much as people complain about them and the effect it has on authentic products ( cloning far worse than grey imports ) it is in this day an age an area of trade and online shopping that is here to stay, but buying grey doesnt make you a criminal , a thief or a bad person and the simple fact is no one is forcing you to buy grey goods , its freedom of choice .
interesting article here though in regard to various cases and well worth a read ( if a bit lengthy )
http://www.brownejacobson.com/about_us/press_office/articles/controlling_the_grey_market_e.aspx

I had heard of grey cars previously, I gather a few years ago it was worthwhile to purchase in Europe and legally import them. Even when paying the import tax some were still worthwhile importing.

You are right that no one is forced to go either way as it's personal choice. these threads do seem to start to turn into personal attacks rather than a discussion on the issue.

The internet has changed things forever, the world is the smallest it ever has been and for that reason UK suppliers need to be able to complete in a global market. No matter how much overhead reducing/cutting they do a 20% VAT rate is a big hurdle to complete on level playing field. Part of the issue is some Far East companies will send items as £10 toy to try to get around customs, but the issue is really both pay tax or neither pay tax. If uk suppliers didn't have to add VAT would this thread exist?

Note to self: avoid these threads in the future

 

[petert]

End of discussion as far as I'm concerned enough been said and we'll just go round in circles

 

[petert]

Oh

It's well known this forum has a great mix of pros, amateurs and people who work in the photography industry. It's one of the reasons why this forum is so good. I don't blame anyone involved in the uk supplied industry to be slightly concerned, it is after all something they are trying to compete against with one hand tied against their back. There is a similar issue with pubs and supermarkets, pub pay extra tax that increase their prices. The result had been record number of pubs closing down as consumer drink cheaper at home. I'm sure if the industry you work/worked in was affected by something similar you would have something to say too. It's only natural for people to stand up for something that directly affects them.

I've not said the HMRC are going to be knocking on peoples doors asking to look at their cameras. like others I said its daft if I said I currently do something that is not exactly within current tax laws on an open Internet forum that has a real name logged. It's not scaring people, it's just common sense.

There are always two sides to a coin and it's worth knowing both to be able to make an informed decision. It up to each consumer what they decide to do.

By the way I have no connection with the photographic industry other than being a keen ammateur.

Didn't mean you Rob, not pointing at anyone in particular but when people get so upset you've saved yourself money buying a grey that they feel you amount to a theif etc then one can only assume they must feel you've robbed them of something, all rather pathetic.if people work in the industry I understand their concerns but making those comments won't change people's minds

 

[rob-nikon]

End of discussion as far as I'm concerned enough been said and we'll just go round in circles

Thats very true about going around in circles. It may be just be easier if these threads were automatically closed. If the search function is used several of these threads can be found about this arguement. The same ground is covered every time with the same outcome. At least this one didn't needs the mods to intervene

 

[petert]

No agree think we should call.it a day, time to move on

 

[hollis_f]

No agree think we should call.it a day, time to move on

I'm going to bet myself a nice new 7D MkII that this isn't his last post in this thread.

 

[petert]

Bet yourself :-D

 

[OldCarlos]

I think some in here have interests in UK retailers:-o that's why it bothers them so much? Not genuine everyday consumers.
You trying to scare people that HRMC will come knocking on your door asking to see your camera what a load of bull
NAIL ON THE HEAD

Now that is a `stock` reply commonly used by shady importers when losing an argument! Hmmmmm?

 

[petert]

Don't talk rubbish, what planet are you from? See you still get the fools that can't leave it alone, if I was an importer i wouldn't have bought the d7100 off myself would I? Brains

 

[hollis_f]

No agree think we should call.it a day, time to move on

Don't talk rubbish, what planet are you from? See you still get the fools that can't leave it alone, if I was an importer i wouldn't have bought the d7100 off myself would I? Brains

Well, that lasted almost 2 hours. Still I did find this bit amusing...

you still get the fools that can't leave it alone

 

[petert]

;-)

 

[EspressoJunkie]

This is going to open a big can of worms

Told ya!

 

[OldCarlos]

Now that is a `stock` reply commonly used by shady importers when losing an argument! Hmmmmm?

Don't talk rubbish, what planet are you from? See you still get the fools that can't leave it alone, if I was an importer i wouldn't have bought the d7100 off myself would I? Brains

No idea fella, just saying.

 

[petert]

)

 

[mikew]

I think the assumption that the difference in price is all if any tax is wrong,your gray import Nikon rout normally goes through none fancy outlets,your genuine one goes through nikon official importers who have offices, sales staff,cars (just think what Nikon UK must spend on advertising in a year) and all the other overheads,then to a shop that has high overheads and possibly a large stock holding to pay for,all this being justified costs that need to be covered.
Its quiet handy to call gray purchasers tax avoiders so making them sound wicked and evil people having spent many years in sales i know and understand the idea of hinting at impropriety about your opposition.
I dont buy gray imports,but thats my choice,who knows it could change.

 

[fracster]

Its quiet handy to call gray purchasers tax avoiders so making them sound wicked and evil people having spent many years in sales i know and understand the idea of hinting at impropriety about your opposition.
I dont buy gray imports,but thats my choice,who knows it could change.

Sorry Mike that is nonsense, we are disucssing import/export law not internal UK sales. The simple fact of the matter, and it is a fact, is that the importer is responsible for paying any duty that is relevant. As an example, Panamoz are the exporter of the camera, the person buying is the importer. Hence it is their legal requirement to inform HMRC of said fact.

I know full well that people buy grey,indeed I have done, due to the huge savings that are made. But the legal onus is on the person importing the goods to declare them if they want to, they should do, but I would imagine none do.

All the arguments about grey versus UK end up going the same way, some people think it is morally right to buy duty paid goods,others don`t, the choice is theirs. But, anybody saying that there is nothing wrong with grey goods,without declaring them, is incorrect,factually.

I`m pretty sure that none of the Hong Kong sellers exports DDP, though am happy to be proved wrong of course.

 

[StewartR]

I think the assumption that the difference in price is all if any tax is wrong

It's not an assumption, Mike. It's a calculation which you can easily do yourself.

 

[petert]

Not opening another can but chatting to a friend yesterday who's just bought a d7000
He looked originally for a second hand one and went through UK retailers as that's where he wanted to buy but ended up buying a grey one from hdew as they only wanted £20 more for a new one with 3 year warranty as opposed to a mint used one with a 6 month warranty. Bottom line being people want the best deal and unfortunately UK retailers can't compete. He looked at some that weren't mint and they wanted more than what he paid for a new one.

 

[DemiLion]

Loverly attempt at an example apart from you shooting yourself straight in the foot.

As has been mentioned elsewhere on the thread, HDEW are a UK based company who provide VAT receipts on request.

Perhaps if you read as much as you typed.... ?

 

[petert]

Not shooting anything in the foot.A rather nonsensical comment! and still not Uk models are they? hence the price difference that's all I was saying, no need for ahole attitude
Even if people shout from the roof top they bought a grey import nothing will happen so don't talk wet, it's got nothing to do with a VAT receipt