Grey Imports
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hi all I have tried to read all this thread but it does go on I bit, for me I bought my a77mk2 last year from digital rev, my choice yes but I am sure that they don't pay the import unless you get charged it because I paid approximately £1,100.00 but import paperwork stated value of £57.00 only. any way my point is just do what you are happy with yourself, I would not do it again because I have recently realised that I actually get a great service from my local photographic shop Ron Harissons, I have recently bought from them both new and used items and its good to have somewhere to see and try before you buy, two used lenses I bought recently where offered with a one week trail and return if not happy no questions asked and I did return one and refund was done as stated no questions asked and all there used gear carries a 12 month warranty, so what I am saying is don't import and then complain when the high street retailer go under and you have no choice and have to buy everything from the import sites
petert
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Nice idea but in reality people are saving too much, the price differences are too big to ignore and not everyone has a local shop, it grudges some on here that don't live in the real world as you've read but that's the reality
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Not really, there's plenty of examples on here where that's not the case and do you really need to keep attacking people with your pathetic little jibes?
As has been repeatedly explained to you, the onus is on the person importing in most grey import scenarios, that is not an argument for or against importing and merely a statement of fact.
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hi again there are savings but I recently looked at digital rev for a sigma 105mm and the cost is only £ 20.00 less than uk and I don't get panamoz there prices don't stack up either for me, I just wonder if people would love there import savings so much if they had a problem with the item ie in need of repair can anyone add there after sales experiences to the thread
petert
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I'm not the only one making jibes am I? I just give back what I get.I'm well aware where the onus is, in most cases it's the seller not the buyer as suggested in some earlier comments. When it is the buyer the.sellers normally state they are not responsible for any import /tax duties.
It's a choice anyone is entitled to make pure and simple
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This argument has been "done to death" on here
Most of what are called "grey imports" can be (considerably) cheaper than the official UK Nikon price ......... but always check as some are near in price
The main reasons are:
1). Most do not charge UK VAT, (so they cannot supply a UK VAT invoice) .......
2). The £ exchange rate has strengthened against the HK $ and Yen since Nikon fixed their UK prices - making bodies bought in HK cheaper in £'s than they were. There will always be companies and individuals who arbitrage the exchange rates to benefit.
3). Some HK suppliers buy at "keener" prices and are prepared to past these on .. against Nikon UK using semi fixed prices maintained for certain periods of time before they are reviewed
4). Most HK suppliers work on much lower profit margins than UK based companies ...... again some pass this advantage on to the purchaser
The warranty given by most "Grey importers" is only good as long as they stay in business.
There are a lot of unstable "grey" suppliers on EBay ........ usually an individual buying a number of units to sell off in the UK as a "venture" ...... promising a guarantee that they may never honour
Hdew and Panamoz have been dealt with by many on here with good prices and service............. a very large percentage of their customers on here seem perfectly satisfied
Hdew are a UK based and registered company, but supply some of their kit from/through an off- shore body
Panamoz seems to be owned by a (Chinese) gentleman based in HK but with a UK Bank Account and admin (virtual or otherwise) office, (?)
The UK VAT rules are what they are as are the EU TVA/MwSt rules ...... there can be ways to get around these internationally and this may be what is being exploited .. whether such is legal or not can be matter of opinion until it is tested......German and French VAT rates are slightly below the UK ..... and their customs rules can be different
There are different considerations applied by UK Customs and Excise depending on which country the goods are shipped from, i.e. EU or not ............ but these may not be clear ........ I am surprised that the rules in the UK have not been tightened and applied as I am sure UK C&E are aware of what is going on - I can only think that they do not have the resources to police the system more effectively.......... but it is also happening in France and Germany ..... and probably other EU countries, (although I am not specifically aware of such) ....... the Euro has also fallen considerably against the £ in the last 9 months
Masses of info on here ... it is up to each individual to decide how he wants to buy and from whom after taking all the facts into account and assessing the risks
Most of what are called "grey imports" can be (considerably) cheaper than the official UK Nikon price ......... but always check as some are near in price
The main reasons are:
1). Most do not charge UK VAT, (so they cannot supply a UK VAT invoice) .......
2). The £ exchange rate has strengthened against the HK $ and Yen since Nikon fixed their UK prices - making bodies bought in HK cheaper in £'s than they were. There will always be companies and individuals who arbitrage the exchange rates to benefit.
3). Some HK suppliers buy at "keener" prices and are prepared to past these on .. against Nikon UK using semi fixed prices maintained for certain periods of time before they are reviewed
4). Most HK suppliers work on much lower profit margins than UK based companies ...... again some pass this advantage on to the purchaser
The warranty given by most "Grey importers" is only good as long as they stay in business.
There are a lot of unstable "grey" suppliers on EBay ........ usually an individual buying a number of units to sell off in the UK as a "venture" ...... promising a guarantee that they may never honour
Hdew and Panamoz have been dealt with by many on here with good prices and service............. a very large percentage of their customers on here seem perfectly satisfied
Hdew are a UK based and registered company, but supply some of their kit from/through an off- shore body
Panamoz seems to be owned by a (Chinese) gentleman based in HK but with a UK Bank Account and admin (virtual or otherwise) office, (?)
The UK VAT rules are what they are as are the EU TVA/MwSt rules ...... there can be ways to get around these internationally and this may be what is being exploited .. whether such is legal or not can be matter of opinion until it is tested......German and French VAT rates are slightly below the UK ..... and their customs rules can be different
There are different considerations applied by UK Customs and Excise depending on which country the goods are shipped from, i.e. EU or not ............ but these may not be clear ........ I am surprised that the rules in the UK have not been tightened and applied as I am sure UK C&E are aware of what is going on - I can only think that they do not have the resources to police the system more effectively.......... but it is also happening in France and Germany ..... and probably other EU countries, (although I am not specifically aware of such) ....... the Euro has also fallen considerably against the £ in the last 9 months
Masses of info on here ... it is up to each individual to decide how he wants to buy and from whom after taking all the facts into account and assessing the risks
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I think a lot of the difference is made up through the import route, if you buy a canon camera from a UK seller that camera has been imported by Canon UK who have there own offices and staff (who have overheads) they then sell on to a reseller (who also have overheads and need to make some profit) these resellers then sell on to the UK retail outlets who will then add on there little bit of profit. Now if you buy Grey your canon dealer and reseller are based in hk and will naturally have lower overheads and can then change lower prices for the same overall profit
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Your theory is not supported by the facts, however. Most "grey" prices are actually HIGHER than mainstream UK prices once you strip out the import duty and VAT elements. If retailers in Hong Kong do indeed benefit from lower overheads, then they're making big fat margins by selling to the UK. And why not? They have a massive price advantage over UK retailers (20% for cameras, 28% for lenses) automatically built in by evading tax, so they don't need to shave their prices to the bone. People who buy grey here might well be subsidising consumers in Hong Kong.
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If the new camera/lens, (a standard rate VAT item), comes into the UK/EU from a non-EU country, VAT and Duty, (if applicable), must be paid by someone - i.e. by the eventual end user
It is as simple as that .......... if you buy a new camera you must by law pay VAT ........ either through a charge from the VAT registered seller or through the correct customs declaration.
If Customs and Excise, (HMRC if you like), follow the paperwork through, if VAT has not been paid on the item you will be charged VAT, Duty, a fee plus interest on the amount.
If they feel that you knowingly did not pay VAT you may be charged an additional penalty.
As long a you know this you can make a decision as to what to do .......... we live in a democracy and there is little that is being done at the present time to stop you or (some) importers, breaking the law.
(I am surprised that the large courier firms are turning a blind eye to this)
It is as simple as that .......... if you buy a new camera you must by law pay VAT ........ either through a charge from the VAT registered seller or through the correct customs declaration.
If Customs and Excise, (HMRC if you like), follow the paperwork through, if VAT has not been paid on the item you will be charged VAT, Duty, a fee plus interest on the amount.
If they feel that you knowingly did not pay VAT you may be charged an additional penalty.
As long a you know this you can make a decision as to what to do .......... we live in a democracy and there is little that is being done at the present time to stop you or (some) importers, breaking the law.
(I am surprised that the large courier firms are turning a blind eye to this)
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That's a fair summary, Bill.
I used to be surprised that the large courier firms turn a blind eye to it, but I'm not any more. If a retailer in (say) HK declares on the customs documents that it's a low value item, that's none of the courier's business. They're just paid to transport it, and they're not responsible for the accuracy of the documents. Plus, it's simply not in their interest. They must make money out of shipping stuff from HK to the UK, and why would they want to put that at risk?
petert
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If you look on ebay most the retailers state that they are not responsible for tax and import duties so if you buy from them your obviously going to get a bill before its delivered which means its not going to be any cheaper, so how those other retailers sell at those reduced prices and you still don't get that bill I have really know idea. Whether they really do pay their tax and import duties or not is questionable and nobody on here knows either. Either way if they don't they are good at it and HMRC are unaware so your not going to get them sending you a bill or knocking on your door. If they say they do pay then you have to take their word as true and its not your responsibility.
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I would imagine that the courier is also only going to insure the package up to the value stated, so if it gets lost in transit it is the sender that loses. Anther reason why the courier wouldn't care particularly as this would reduce their risk even further.
And in response to the comment above regarding EU sourced items (not just photographic), it is always worth looking at sites such as curiua.com, which compares the five European Amazon sites. Search for something like the Canon 24-105 and you'll see a huge difference (and for some items the UK has the best deal).
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I don't know how Chinese firms do it but as I understand it in the UK companies rely on their insurance to cover loss or damage in transit so they can probably declare whatever they want and not worry about it especially.
I ship a lot (in the UK) and loss/damage seems to be fairly rare, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd lose more money paying for extra compensation on every package than just replacing lost/damaged items.
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Absolutely. For example, my DPD international tariff says that they'll normally only pay £100 in the event of loss, and if I want to cover the full value for the parcel it will cost me 1% of its value. So obviously, in the long run it doesn't make sense to pay for the enhanced cover unless they're losing more than 1 in 100 parcels, and of course the actual loss rate is far far below that.
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French VAT (TVA) is 20%, the same as the UK
It certainly happens in France and the consumer/purchaser is more aware of it as a copy of the import documents are sent to the purchaser by the French customs agency.
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Are you bad at reading or just thick? You, the buyer,the importer are totally and utterly responsible for declaring goods that you are importing.Whether that be a camera,a lens, clothing,food stuffs or used Afghan jock straps.
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hi this is the last comment from me, what about resale of grey imports, I was told that uk retail outlets don't generally allow trade in on the grey imports, so does that affect resale if you sell your import later. I see on here and ebay etc that question asked many times is it a grey import? so if it does affect resale does that not kill the saving made in the first place? sorry about that guys but I just think people should make there purchase wherever and not wind people up on here.
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hi this is the last comment from me, what about resale of grey imports, I was told that uk retail outlets don't generally allow trade in on the grey imports, so does that affect resale if you sell your import later. I see on here and ebay etc that question asked many times is it a grey import? so if it does affect resale does that not kill the saving made in the first place? sorry about that guys but I just think people should make there purchase wherever and not wind people up on here.
Like all things, it depends.
It's entirely sensible for retailers to not want to touch grey imports if for no reason other than to discourage the competition. On here it'll hurt the value slightly but I don't see many people caring about it on ebay, if you're only concerned about the price and condition why would you care where it was sourced from?
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Sorry I should know I live in France, have for a few years - I'm a little out of date .... increased from 19.6% in Jan 2014 to 20%
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It could also have the opposite effect, driving down the price of UK sourced S/H items. How often do you see the comment "one sold for £xxx last week". The fact that the one that sold last week was grey as opposed to the one selling this week does not make much difference to the buyer if there is no warranty left.
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I'm sure the existence of grey imports hurts second hand values.
Let's face it, what might be deemed to be a fair price for a second hand item can only be judged in the context of what a new one costs. If a new lens costs say £1000, people might be prepared to pay £800 for a used one in good condition. But if the new lens can be bought for only £850 via an illegal import, then some people wouldn't want to pay £800 for a used one, regardless of whether the used one is legal or illegal. Simple as that.
Let's face it, what might be deemed to be a fair price for a second hand item can only be judged in the context of what a new one costs. If a new lens costs say £1000, people might be prepared to pay £800 for a used one in good condition. But if the new lens can be bought for only £850 via an illegal import, then some people wouldn't want to pay £800 for a used one, regardless of whether the used one is legal or illegal. Simple as that.
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Pete - HK/Chinese sellers
if they are shipping from outside the EU they will not be registered for UK/EU VAT and therefore do not have to pay VAT to any authority
They are under no obligation to inform you of what should be done once you receive the camera in the UK or EU ...... some do and some don't
Within reason, they can declare anything that they like on the shipping documents
You will have paid before they ship and even if you pay by Credit Card you may not have any come back
But the above said .... Panamoz and Hdew have been no problem and I have not heard that any UK buyer has been approached after the event for the VAT ....... a few have been charged VAT on entry and as far as I am aware Panama have refunded an amount equal to the VAT/Duty paid once they have been supplied with proof of payment.
None of us should recommend that anyone breaks the law, particularly on an open forum ....... if we feel it necessary we should just explain the facts as we know them so that you are fully informed ..... and it looks as this has been done quite a few times
I'm just waiting for one of these "grey" guys to go "pop" and then see what the reaction will be ........ I better get my order in for a D7200 before it's too late!!!!
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This has happened quite a few times on this forum ....... if a current lens or body is put up for sale ...... it is not long before the grey price is quoted
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I think @rob-nikon is correct. Photographic equipment is almost unique in terms of its attractiveness for illegal imports. Cameras and lenses are the same all over the world; they're (mostly) small and valuable; lots of buyers upgrade regularly; and many buyers own multiple items of equipment. I can't think of anything else that ticks all those boxes.
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Plus it's a really healthy market and there's always strong demand, putting a lens up for sale is a bit like one of those scenes from a film when they toss something into a Piranha tank...
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He just aint listening.
(or seems like he's just trying to convince/justify himself? (n) )
There's none so blind as those who will not see.
petert
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I didn't explain that very well:-o I meant ones that are already in the uk not ones bought directly from hk or wherever , I've paid import duties a few times when bought directly on items so no I'm not stupid or trying to justify myself
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Right you can close the thread now,i understand what i didnt in my previous posts
Not that i was a potential grey customer anyway,part of the reason i accept the higher local camera shop prices are down to service,my tamron 150-600 has been back to tamron twice each time for four weeks,the first time my local dealer loaned me a secondhand Nikon 80-400,the second time a Sigma 50-500.
Just wonder how many grey purchasers go to a camera shop first and make use of them to look at gear.
Not that i was a potential grey customer anyway,part of the reason i accept the higher local camera shop prices are down to service,my tamron 150-600 has been back to tamron twice each time for four weeks,the first time my local dealer loaned me a secondhand Nikon 80-400,the second time a Sigma 50-500.
Just wonder how many grey purchasers go to a camera shop first and make use of them to look at gear.
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Would be great if I had a local camera shop. Nearest about 30miles away
might just be that your nearest shop is 30 miles away because they have all gone out of business due to grey imports under cutting them!
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