- Messages
- 10,866
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
and help to keep the site free for all
Hillsborough
- Thread starter jakeblu
- Start date
OP
- Messages
- 10,866
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
CPS are considering it apparently
- Messages
- 6,882
- Name
- Carl
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Aye, `considering` it
The probability will be (IF they decide to go ahead) it will take so long they will have popped their clogs by then.
- Messages
- 29,465
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
Aye, `considering` it
The probability will be (IF they decide to go ahead) it will take so long they will have popped their clogs by then.
That's my thinking too.
- Messages
- 20,396
- Name
- Simon
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Would it do any good. Sure if you deliberately cause harm then there should be consequences but what about mistakes. They do happen. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but is it likely they did the actions they did because they wanted things to go wrong?
Luckily in my role, accidents or misjudgments are unlikely to have serious consequences.
- Messages
- 29,465
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
I would agree that mistakes do happen, even lethal ones, but what I personally find unforgivable is the conspiracy of lies that followed from the police and other authorities and their absolute determination to lay the entire blame at the feet of the Liverpool fans.
Documents were altered, statements withdrawn and replaced...all acts of fraud, and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
These were deliberate and calculated acts designed to make the world believe that the fans were entirely to blame, and they, the police had done no wrong.
- Messages
- 2,092
- Name
- Chris
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I feel for the victims and their families, 27 years is a long time for the truth to come out.
What I don't understand is how can no blame lies with the 100s of Liverpool fans who climb walls to get into the game without tickets? Surely they contributed to this horrific day as much as the police and stewards.
Sorry if this upsets anyone, it's not meant to, just me trying to understand what happened that terrible day.
What I don't understand is how can no blame lies with the 100s of Liverpool fans who climb walls to get into the game without tickets? Surely they contributed to this horrific day as much as the police and stewards.
Sorry if this upsets anyone, it's not meant to, just me trying to understand what happened that terrible day.
Llamaman
Proud Addick
- Messages
- 7,422
- Name
- Not an addick!
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The jury found that their behaviour was not a/the cause of the disaster.
Without having sat through all the evidence I'm not in a position to doubt their verdict.
But my understanding, from limited background knowledge, is that the key error was not delaying kickoff whilst a significant number of fans were still trying to get in.
- Messages
- 2,092
- Name
- Chris
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Thank you, now I understand.
- Messages
- 21,341
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Sorry? Explain the justice comment? I don't understand.
There was mismanagement. There was coverup, attempt to deflect the blame and refusal to accept wrong doing, but the police have often done that.
I don't see Justice, has anyone been found guilty? I fully expect some officers will retire with full pension
- Messages
- 21,341
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Duckenfield eventually admitted last year he ordered the gates opened
He also admitted at the inquests that even as the event was descending into horror and death, he had infamously lied, telling Graham Kelly, then secretary of the Football Association, that Liverpool fans were to blame, for gaining unauthorised entry through a large exit gate. Duckenfield had in fact himself ordered the gate to be opened, to relieve a crush in the bottleneck approach to the Leppings Lane turnstiles.
http://www.theguardian.com/football...-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades
- Messages
- 29,465
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
Some already have.
- Messages
- 6,882
- Name
- Carl
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yep, I agree & it's something I always found abhorrent when this happens. I the past many individuals have totally escaped investigations & prosecutions because they resigned from their positions. Why that should excuse illegal actions is beyond me.
- Messages
- 29,465
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
The question put to the jury was very simple on this point:
Question 7 - Supporters' behaviour: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? If yes was that behaviour unusual or unforseeable?
Jury's Answer - No
- Messages
- 3,065
- Name
- Linda
- Edit My Images
- No
It seems Duckenfield is going to have criminal charges considered. I think the CPS would be very unwise to claim it is not in the public interest to pursue a prosecution; hard to see how they can given it is obvious that he committed perjury. As for the remarks about masons, I have a cousin-in-law who is a mason and he spends an immense amount of time doing charitable works, including riding a blood bike paid for by the masons in his area. Without my knowledge of him and his commitments, I would also just think that Masons are always in it for themselves; that is clearly not the case. I find their ceremonial stuff quite odd but there you go. Duckenfield is, it would seem, the bad apple. I don't know how the people directly involved in this case have coped with being angry for over a quarter a century. I suppose it will continue whilst the legal consequences of this verdict are worked out and then, of course, there is the press.
Llamaman
Proud Addick
- Messages
- 7,422
- Name
- Not an addick!
- Edit My Images
- Yes
It was a monumental series of errors, but without knowing the whole story I'm unclear in my own mind whether there is criminal liability. One must remember that crowd control standards have improved immensely (in part due to this tragedy) and those in charge should be judged by the standards extant then, not now.
What IS clear, however, is that those involved have, at every opportunity, lied to protect themselves and their organisations.
Even if there is insufficient evidence to press charges for the tragedy itself, this continued cynical dishonesty and perjury must not go unaccounted for.
One hopes the CPS acts swiftly to ensure ill health / temporary Alzheimer's doesn't frustrate justice. Given their recent record for pursuing police officers, I won't be holding my breath.
What IS clear, however, is that those involved have, at every opportunity, lied to protect themselves and their organisations.
Even if there is insufficient evidence to press charges for the tragedy itself, this continued cynical dishonesty and perjury must not go unaccounted for.
One hopes the CPS acts swiftly to ensure ill health / temporary Alzheimer's doesn't frustrate justice. Given their recent record for pursuing police officers, I won't be holding my breath.
- Messages
- 29,465
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
Exactly this.
I have no problem with the fact that so many of the errors of so many people have been deemed to be the cause of the tragic events (the stadium, the police, the stewards, the emergency services etc) and I certainly have no problem with any criminal convictions that may eventually follow for those that have lied about and tried to cover up the errors that were made to protect themselves but however harsh it may seem I find it impossible to accept that the football fans have been exonerated of any blame whatsoever. Fair enough it is impossible to single out individuals within the crowd as there were dozens/hundred of fans acting as one. It took hundred of fans to cause the very tragic crushing and once you're in that crush you can't get out of it. BUT, surely some of the blame has to fall with the many fans that went to the game knowing they didn't have a ticket to get in, knowing that if they climbed a gate to get in they'd be causing over crowding of an already sold out game. I'm not saying the Liverpool fans are specifically guilty of anything, many of them were just in the wrong place at the wrong time as an unprecedented set of circumstances played out but as a whole it was the actions of the fans that kicked off the chain of events.
As hard as it may be for the families of the 96 that died they should be concentrating on all the positive changes that have been made within football because of the events of 15th April 1989. Football is a lot safer now than it was 27 years ago, stadiums are better designed and the whole experience of watching live football is better than it ever has been. I think that is where the justice for the 96 really lies rather then trying to prosecute a few people that made mistakes all those years ago.
As hard as it may be for the families of the 96 that died they should be concentrating on all the positive changes that have been made within football because of the events of 15th April 1989. Football is a lot safer now than it was 27 years ago, stadiums are better designed and the whole experience of watching live football is better than it ever has been. I think that is where the justice for the 96 really lies rather then trying to prosecute a few people that made mistakes all those years ago.
- Messages
- 12,309
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
Exactly.
And, although there have been countless cases where the police are believed to have done exactly the same thing, I think that this is the very first case where it has been proved.
Maybe, just maybe, this will be the start of a change of attitude by our (senior) police officers and who knows, we may eventually end up with the police forces we deserve..
Proof for what claim? I've made no claim, I stated an opinion.
- Messages
- 2,092
- Name
- Chris
- Edit My Images
- Yes
No The Greek doesn't believe the lies put out by Police, Press or whoever, which is why he asked the question on here for those who are more informed to try and explain so I was able to understand the verdict, which was answered very well.
Please don't presume without knowing the facts, thank you.
OP
- Messages
- 10,866
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I think its the bit about the ticketless fans.
A newspaper report from the inquest
The suggestion that many people without tickets entered the Hillsborough football ground when 96 Liverpool supporters died there in 1989 is not borne out by the evidence, the inquest into the disaster has heard.
John Cutlack, a structural engineer appearing as an expert witness on stadium safety, calculated the number of spectators in the ground, and said it did not exceed the number who should have been there according to Sheffield Wednesday's safety certificate.
Pete Weatherby QC, representing 22 families whose relatives died at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989, asked Cutlack: "From your best estimates, there is no objective basis to say that a large number of people without tickets got into the ground?"
Cutlack replied: "It definitely does show to me there certainly were not more people in the ground than were on the safety certificate."
The problem is that the reports from the police from that day were fabricated to lay blame on the fans its difficult to know what is the truth, and the way it was reported in the media, encouraged by the police left an impression that it was unruly and drunk liverpool supporters. A fabrication that has finally been laid to rest today and that @Byker28i is the justice I meant in my opening post.
- Messages
- 809
- Name
- pretty obvious really.
- Edit My Images
- Yes
being a resident of Hillsborough at the time, literally 100 yards away from the Leppings lane entrance, it was common practice at FA cup semi finals for thousands of ticketless fans to turn up hoping to get in or just to be there whatever. In previous years the police tried several tactics to control them, one year they herded them through the local streets, the damage they caused was horrendous,cars smashed,windows put through etc. Because this didn't work the following year they tried to gather them all onto some spare ground and keep them there till the match was over.
- Messages
- 29,465
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
I'm not sure, but it's fact that police were still directing fans into the ground via the opened exit gates over five minutes after the first victims were pulled dead onto the pitch.
That's borne out by time stamped security video.
The communication was non existent.
- Messages
- 1,835
- Name
- dave
- Edit My Images
- Yes
be very interesting how the s*n reports this tomorrow, not that il ever see it they dont sell it in any shops round here, this is just the beginning, the fight goes on, id love to see those that changed their statements brought to trial for fraud and perjury, whether they were coerced by powers above or not, lets get them in the dock too for perverting the course of justice, lets get that vile creature kelvin mckenzie up for liable after the lies he printed in his rag and lastly id love to have that old witch thatcher exhumed and paraded through the streets JFT96
Canon Bob
Loves the Enemy
- Messages
- 9,754
- Name
- Bob
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Is this because you consider that she was in some way responsible for the Hillsborough tragedy or simply because she supported the trial and manslaughter convictions of the 14 Liverpool fans deemed to be culpable in the deaths of Italian supporters at Heysel?
Bob
- Messages
- 875
- Name
- Edward
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I didn't listen to all the news tonight but what I heard was a very gracious apology from the police.
This was a horrible episode and oh, how everyone wishes it hadn't happened and quite how it's taken 27 years to get to this stage and ... at least we now have some sort of final solution.
I've always felt a little sorry for the police as back in those days the hooliganism element was increasing year on year and there were over 6,000 arrests for this back then. There were gangs, troubles on trains and all sorts. Nowadays there are around 1,800 arrests, mainly for drunkenness and uncivil behaviour. I'm not trying to excuse the police as there was a major error of judgement. What a sorry tale though and a dark period.
Those deceased people (requiescant in pace) won't walk alone and let's hope that the poor judgements of the authorities can be forgiven.
This was a horrible episode and oh, how everyone wishes it hadn't happened and quite how it's taken 27 years to get to this stage and ... at least we now have some sort of final solution.
I've always felt a little sorry for the police as back in those days the hooliganism element was increasing year on year and there were over 6,000 arrests for this back then. There were gangs, troubles on trains and all sorts. Nowadays there are around 1,800 arrests, mainly for drunkenness and uncivil behaviour. I'm not trying to excuse the police as there was a major error of judgement. What a sorry tale though and a dark period.
Those deceased people (requiescant in pace) won't walk alone and let's hope that the poor judgements of the authorities can be forgiven.
- Messages
- 25,297
- Name
- Phil
- Edit My Images
- No
There's evidence to suggest she knew the detail of what happened at Hillsboro and was happy to keep it secret.
Marc
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 34,275
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Canon Bob
Loves the Enemy
- Messages
- 9,754
- Name
- Bob
- Edit My Images
- Yes
From the released details it seems that she wanted the criticism of the police "toned down" rather than kept secret....unless there's more substantiating stuff out there.
Bob
- Messages
- 12,309
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
Gracious apology?
Made, of all people, by their Chief Constable, David Crompton. If you think that that's a gracious apology then perhaps you may want to do a bit of research into nice Mr Crompton
woof woof
I like a nice Chianti
- Messages
- 39,671
- Name
- Alan
- Edit My Images
- No
I'm probably going to be in a minority of one again...
I don't agree with the verdict(s) but it's what I expected, I see a pc verdict.
Looking back I wonder if a tragedy on some scale was inevitable or at least more likely than not at some stage. Maybe we've been lucky in this country when we consider what happens pretty regularly in other parts of the world but of course we'd expect fewer stamped / crush deaths in this country as we're supposed to be a developed first world country and we have fewer mass attendance events and when we have them the numbers in attendance are relatively fewer than in other places so such things shouldn't happen here as often but they can happen and back then the authorities simply were not as well organised and trained in crowd control and dealing with potential and actual mass casualties and venues and facilities simple were not as good and well thought out health and safety wise as they are today. These days any half competent person doing a risk assessment should have seen the potential but back then? I'm not so sure.
I can see the rational for the police ordering the opening the gates in an attempt to ease the crush which was developing but of course after that the road to tragedy was set. Actually I think that some level of tragedy was possibly inevitable on that day. What would have happened if the gates hadn't been opened we'll never know but perhaps the casualties would have been fewer. Those making decisions before, during and after the event didn't have perfect hindsight.
After the tragedy no one covered themselves in glory to put it mildly but I can understand the dishonesty as we have a culture of finding a sacrificial scapegoat and crucifying them. So of course cock up leads to dishonesty. We see this constantly in almost every organisation and walk of life but is it all that surprising? Maybe if as a society we tried to understand a little more and condemn and witch hunt a little less and instead retrain and council a little more we'd have less dishonesty and fewer cover up?
I don't agree with the verdicts and I would not agree with the prosecution of police officers or (less likely) health service personnel. I expect the baying for heads to continue but that will only lead to suffering for others and their families and what's to be gained? Do we need to crucify the living and dig up ex Prime Ministers (only Conservative ones of course...) and kill them all over again? Personally I think these deliberate actions after the event would be as sickening as the tragedy itself.
Time to stop baying for blood, mourn, learn from the tragic events and move on IMO.
I don't agree with the verdict(s) but it's what I expected, I see a pc verdict.
Looking back I wonder if a tragedy on some scale was inevitable or at least more likely than not at some stage. Maybe we've been lucky in this country when we consider what happens pretty regularly in other parts of the world but of course we'd expect fewer stamped / crush deaths in this country as we're supposed to be a developed first world country and we have fewer mass attendance events and when we have them the numbers in attendance are relatively fewer than in other places so such things shouldn't happen here as often but they can happen and back then the authorities simply were not as well organised and trained in crowd control and dealing with potential and actual mass casualties and venues and facilities simple were not as good and well thought out health and safety wise as they are today. These days any half competent person doing a risk assessment should have seen the potential but back then? I'm not so sure.
I can see the rational for the police ordering the opening the gates in an attempt to ease the crush which was developing but of course after that the road to tragedy was set. Actually I think that some level of tragedy was possibly inevitable on that day. What would have happened if the gates hadn't been opened we'll never know but perhaps the casualties would have been fewer. Those making decisions before, during and after the event didn't have perfect hindsight.
After the tragedy no one covered themselves in glory to put it mildly but I can understand the dishonesty as we have a culture of finding a sacrificial scapegoat and crucifying them. So of course cock up leads to dishonesty. We see this constantly in almost every organisation and walk of life but is it all that surprising? Maybe if as a society we tried to understand a little more and condemn and witch hunt a little less and instead retrain and council a little more we'd have less dishonesty and fewer cover up?
I don't agree with the verdicts and I would not agree with the prosecution of police officers or (less likely) health service personnel. I expect the baying for heads to continue but that will only lead to suffering for others and their families and what's to be gained? Do we need to crucify the living and dig up ex Prime Ministers (only Conservative ones of course...) and kill them all over again? Personally I think these deliberate actions after the event would be as sickening as the tragedy itself.
Time to stop baying for blood, mourn, learn from the tragic events and move on IMO.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 2,014
- Name
- Nick
- Edit My Images
- Yes
You may disagree with the verdicts but it matters not one bit. 96 people WERE unlawfully killed. So the people responsible have to be punished. It's how society works.