Image quality question

heron_AI

heron_AI

Messages
59
Name
Mattias
Edit My Images
Yes
Hello,

Recently purchased a D5600 with a Sigma 150-600mm C, I had high expections since I've been shooting with a Coolpix P900 (Which took really good pictures at full focal length hand-held). Below are two pictures I took today, the Swan was taken with teleconverter TC-1401 on tripod and the Tit hand-held without teleconverter. Since I'm new in the DSLR world, I'm wondering if this is what I can expect, honestly I would have liked to see a little more detail. The pictures are unedited, shot in 12-bit raw, they were converted to jpeg with highest quality/lowest compression. Your ideas and opinions greatly appreciated.

A

A
 
heron_AI said:
How can I show the pictures?
Click to expand...

You need to have them hosted somewhere on the web (EG Flickr, or your own website), then in your post click the Image icon (15th along on the row above the post edit area).

Up will pop a box for you to post the URL - just copy the location in, and it should appear.

The is a tutorial for Flick here https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/tutorials/inserting-images-from-flickr-updated-22-08-15.7/
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/tutorials/inserting-images-from-flickr-updated-22-08-15.7/
Difficult to comment without seeing the images, but getting shots right with a long lens like hte 150-600 takes a bit of work, even more so with a teleconverter.

On a tripod you need to have image stabilisation off, and hand held you need to have a decent shutter speed - the 'rule of thumb' is 1/Focal length or faster - so at 600mm that's 1/600 or faster (eg 1/1000).

What tripod do you have? (The 150-600 will need a reasonable tripod, as it's a fairly long and heavy lens).
 
Use Flickr, you can upload full size to Flickr and show a smaller version on here and people can go back to your Flickr to see full size if necessary.
 
I'm sorry, I forgot to mention the problem, I have the images hosted on a server. But since I'm a new member I can not post links, I have to post three times first (to prevent spam).
 
heron_AI said:
I'm sorry, I forgot to mention the problem, I have the images hosted on a server. But since I'm a new member I can not post links, I have to post three times first (to prevent spam).
Click to expand...
Well you're up to 4 posts now......
 
n-6Htgtg/i-psPzzhH/A
heron_AI said:
I think it has to be new posts/threads, not messages.
Click to expand...
Just posts :)
You are linking the image, you need the BB code or IMG tags to display an image.
I'm not sure that smug mug has that facility though.
 
Cobra said:
n-6Htgtg/i-psPzzhH/A

Just posts :)
You are linking the image, you need the BB code or IMG tags to display an image.
I'm not sure that smug mug has that facility though.
Click to expand...

The links above should work!
 
heron_AI said:
The links above should work!
Click to expand...
Yes the links lead you to the image.
However if you want to display an image on the forum as above, you need img tags or BB code.
 
Just some initial things to realise & consider.

Compact cameras with small sensors even at wide open apertures will have large DoF thus hiding acute focus user errors

Such compacts with their onboard processing will, in the main, produce pleasing images.

A dSLR when shooting raw gives you a lot of PP control..........but they will require sharpening to suit so leaving the raw convertor settings at default will not "get the best" out of the file.

Stepping up to a dSLR has a learning curve, so stock at it :)
 
Box Brownie said:
Just some initial things to realise & consider.

Compact cameras with small sensors even at wide open apertures will have large DoF thus hiding acute focus user errors

Such compacts with their onboard processing will, in the main, produce pleasing images.

A dSLR when shooting raw gives you a lot of PP control..........but they will require sharpening to suit so leaving the raw convertor settings at default will not "get the best" out of the file.

Stepping up to a dSLR has a learning curve, so stock at it :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input.

Today was my first real field test, and as you say and from what I can see on the pictures, AF is much more critical with this camera. The more I look (yes, pixel-peep) on the pictures I got the focus right the happier I am.
Also, the P900 only has JPEG, not raw and the pictures are heavily processed. The Sigma lens is heavy and I'm struggling to keep it steady, I'm also not used to use a tripod.

I think the shutter sound is pleasing to hear for some reason :)
 
The P900 and all digital cameras shoot raw, but the likes of the P900 does not save the raw. It as you say creates JPEGs and these are processed from the sensors raw output according to the wishes of the Nikon elves ;)
 
To me, the tit looks pretty fair, though in need of some careful processing. The swan may have reasonable detail present but badly needs proper processing to look OK.
 
ancient_mariner said:
To me, the tit looks pretty fair, though in need of some careful processing. The swan may have reasonable detail present but badly needs proper processing to look OK.
Click to expand...

Here's another one:


I have been using PaintShop Pro for many years for personal use, so I'm fairly proficient using it, however raw processing is new to me. I purchased Aftershot 3 Pro to give me more tools to work with but some tips and tricks are welcome, i.e. is there something that needs/should to be done compared to an in-camera processed jpeg? As a sidenote, Aftershot won't open the raw files from my camera and I'm still waiting for Corel to contact me. I found a workaround, by editing the picture's exif data and change camera model to D5500, the program opens it. Apparently the camera is so new it's not supported yet.
 
Mattias, I think you need to get the basics down first before worrying about processing etc. I'm a big fan of RAW over jpeg, but you need to have a good file to begin with, and you can then add the final polish to the shot by processing it correctly. Both your swan shots are very underexposed, and I'm guessing this is because you've gone for subjects that easily fool the camera meter with all that bright reflective water around. If you learn to expose your shots right, using the histogram correctly and learn the best focussing modes for the shooting question, then you'll be a long way to getting technically good results.

After that its down to understanding light, composition etc and with your new found technical knowledge you can start to get creative and thats where the real fun starts.

As an example of the underexposure I'm talking about, here's your latest swan shot with 2 stops of exposure added all round, then even more brightness added to the swan itself. If your original file started out something like my version below, then you could get the most out of it with correct processing rather than trying to rescue a shot, which rarely works

View attachment 96096

Your gear is fine, it just takes more learning than a Coolpix P900.

Keep shooting and posting and asking for help, particularly in the critique sections and you should notice a fairly quick upturn in your IQ if you listen to the advice given,

Mike
 
Last edited:
Both the swan images are underexposed, before beating yourself up about your processing skills, learn about metering for bright or dark subjects. Getting it right in camera is much easier than PP in the long run.

The tit picture is a near miss.

You've spent a lot of money on gear, it's time to invest in practice, both your fieldcraft and camera craft. Great pictures are made in planning and execution not sat at the computer.
 
The sigma is a heavy bus if your not used to it.

It does need good light to the get best out of it.

Which tc are you using, as i have the sigma 1401 i think it is, i have only tested it in winter light and tbh im not impressed with it so far.

But as others have said, practice will be the winner.
 
Thank you all for your replies!
I went out today taking photos of birds and actually got a few keepers, nothing exceptional but better than nothing. I didn't use teleconverter or tripod today. The teleconverter is the TC-1401, the Swan pictures are both taken with the TC. So far I haven't seen a difference in IQ with or without TC, if it wasn't for worse AF performance and smaller aperture I would use it all the time. Tomorrow I will test the autofocus at 30 meters.

I agree that I have to practice a lot, taking pictures with different settings and see what works. What I don't want to do is taking thousands of pictures with mediocre results and then finding out there's something wrong with either the camera or the lens. Is there an inexpensive way of determining if IQ is up to par? I know there are software like Imatest and DxOMark but they are rather pricey.

Mattias
 
Hi Mattias

If you just wish to check, for peace of mind, that the camera is focusing accurately IMO there one simple setup test to "check".

-Use the tripod
-Find a wall and position yourself at 45degrees to it focus [NB if like Canon the Nikon lets you set to use only the central focus point ~ then use that i.e. do not let the camera pick the point of focus ;) ] on one brick say 10 feet away and take the picture (stating the obvious with exposure settings (make sure to use the lens wide open ~ e.g. f4 but whatever that lens is) to ensure the proper exposure i.e. histogram balanced and "exposed to the right" often referred to as ETTR......................do not underexpose ;)

If when viewed both on the camera LCD and the computer screen the chosen brick is nice and sharp then there is nothing to be concerned about :) NB if wet outside use a row of batteries as the target :)

If there focus is off (back or front focusing) then you need to use a make calibration chart and make the MFA (micro focus adjustment) to fine tune it.

Basically, unless there is an identifiable problem then all errors are user errors ;)

Edit ~ a quick Google does not identify that MFA is possible on the D5600 ?
 
Last edited:
Box Brownie said:
Hi Mattias

If you just wish to check, for peace of mind, that the camera is focusing accurately IMO there one simple setup test to "check".

-Use the tripod
-Find a wall and position yourself at 45degrees to it focus [NB if like Canon the Nikon lets you set to use only the central focus point ~ then use that i.e. do not let the camera pick the point of focus ;) ] on one brick say 10 feet away and take the picture (stating the obvious with exposure settings (make sure to use the lens wide open ~ e.g. f4 but whatever that lens is) to ensure the proper exposure i.e. histogram balanced and "exposed to the right" often referred to as ETTR......................do not underexpose ;)

If when viewed both on the camera LCD and the computer screen the chosen brick is nice and sharp then there is nothing to be concerned about :) NB if wet outside use a row of batteries as the target :)

If there focus is off (back or front focusing) then you need to use a make calibration chart and make the MFA (micro focus adjustment) to fine tune it.

Basically, unless there is an identifiable problem then all errors are user errors ;)

Edit ~ a quick Google does not identify that MFA is possible on the D5600 ?
Click to expand...

Thank you for the information!

I have the Sigma USB Dock, so I can adjust AF in the lens as I think MFA is not possible on D5600.

I took many pictures of a Treecreeper today, and I have some images of a Treecreeper I took with my Coolpix P900. For comparison, I post one photo taken with P900 and one with D5600, both are edited.

D5600


P900


This is disheartening.
 
heron_AI said:
Thank you for the information!

I have the Sigma USB Dock, so I can adjust AF in the lens as I think MFA is not possible on D5600.

I took many pictures of a Treecreeper today, and I have some images of a Treecreeper I took with my Coolpix P900. For comparison, I post one photo taken with P900 and one with D5600, both are edited.

D5600


P900


This is disheartening.
Click to expand...


Photography is about light, the image shot with the P90 has good light, the Nikon doesn't, pretty simple really.
 
As the Exif has been stripped I take the top one is the D5600 and the lower the P800

  1. The P800 as mentioned has a smaller sensor and the DoF is large compared to the 5600
  2. on the P800 you have used flash (at least the catchlight in the eye suggests so?) that will freeze action adding to the "better look" NB what shutter speed and focal length did you use on the 5600?
  3. There is nothing dead sharp in the upper image
    What settings did you use and have you practiced hold the body & lens properly to mitigate for camera shake?
Until you get the basics of dSLR handling correct you will likely find its use and the images frustating.

PS I appreciate you are trying to show us the best but without the full exif (do not use 'save for the web', instead use "save as" as that should retain the EXIF data.

PPS Also, you say you have processed/edited them, just what did you do.

Knowing the EXIF and the actions you have taken will allow for more informed critique and help for you. Without that information, it is a bit like giving us a food dish to taste and asking us what cooking method & spices you should have used without telling us what you have used to start with ;)
 
Last edited:
Nawty said:
Photography is about light, the image shot with the P90 has good light, the Nikon doesn't, pretty simple really.
Click to expand...

Yes, the P900 photo was shot during summer. But viewing the D5600 in full size it looks like an oil painting and seems to have CA (I did lens correction in Aftershot) on the tree to the left. ISO is 2200, 1/1000, F/6.3, 600mm. Before I bought the lens I was viewing pictures on the internet and they were tack sharp with amazing detail. Is my whining unfounded?
 
I'm no birder but there looks to be fine detail in the feathers on the top but very little on the P900. It's a tool you will have to work at to get the best from, as others have you know its possible.
 
Box Brownie said:
As the Exif has been stripped I take the top one is the D5600 and the lower the P800

  1. The P800 as mentioned has a smaller sensor and the DoF is large compared to the 5600
  2. on the P800 you have used flash (at least the catchlight in the eye suggests so?) that will freeze action adding to the "better look" NB what shutter speed and focal length did you use on the 5600?
  3. There is nothing dead sharp in the upper image
    What settings did you use and have you practiced hold the body & lens properly to mitigate for camera shake?
Until you get the basics of dSLR handling correct you will likely find its use and the images frustating.
Click to expand...

Yes, the upper image is from D5600 with these settings ISO is 2200, 1/1000, F/6.3, 600mm. The P900 weighs 1kg and I have almost always hand-held it so I'm fairly good at holding a camera steady, I also used to be an archer.
The P900 image is without flash and on really short distance, but here's an unedited image taken with the P900 with exif data intact and taken at full zoom:

 
Last edited:
heron_AI said:
Yes, the P900 photo was shot during summer. But viewing the D5600 in full size it looks like an oil painting and seems to have CA (I did lens correction in Aftershot) on the tree to the left. ISO is 2200, 1/1000, F/6.3, 600mm. Before I bought the lens I was viewing pictures on the internet and they were tack sharp with amazing detail. Is my whining unfounded?
Click to expand...

Take a few pictures of unchallenging subjects like the brick wall I mentioned to prove to yourself that you are handling the camera properly (i.e. can you actually get sharp focused & well exposed images of such static well lit subjects?) that way you eliminate potential issues associated with the body & lens. This will then allow you to concentrate on the developing your camera craft..........................

In regard to these settings ISO is 2200, 1/1000, F/6.3, 600mm
I have no idea how well the D5600 handles noise at ISO 2200 but do bear in mind that even though 1/1000 Tv should be adequate when handholding at 600mm it is by no means guaranteed as technique is required even with at shutter speed.
 
heron_AI said:
Yes, the upper image is from D5600 with these settings ISO is 2200, 1/1000, F/6.3, 600mm. The P900 weighs 1kg and I have almost always hand-held it so I'm fairly good at holding a camera steady, I also used to be an archer.
The P900 image is without flash and on really short distance, but here's an unedited image taken with the P900 with exif data intact and taken at full zoom:

Click to expand...


Again, it's in good light and in this instance it also fills the frame which is very beneficial.

ISO2200 will always result in some smearing of fine detail and apparent lack of sharpness, that's what happens and the effect is made much worse by any cropping or a small subject in the frame.

The kit looks fine, you just need the right conditions to use it in. Photography is about light.
 
Box Brownie said:
Take a few pictures of unchallenging subjects like the brick wall I mentioned to prove to yourself that you are handling the camera properly (i.e. can you actually get sharp focused & well exposed images of such static well lit subjects?) that way you eliminate potential issues associated with the body & lens. This will then allow you to concentrate on the developing your camera craft..........................

In regard to these settings ISO is 2200, 1/1000, F/6.3, 600mm
I have no idea how well the D5600 handles noise at ISO 2200 but do bear in mind that even though 1/1000 Tv should be adequate when handholding at 600mm it is by no means guaranteed as technique is required even with at shutter speed.
Click to expand...

Tomorrow I will setup both cameras on tripod side by side and shoot static objects like a brick wall as you suggested. I'm giving up half the focal length with my new equipment so I expect some improvement over P900 in terms of IQ.
 
Nawty said:
Again, it's in good light and in this instance it also fills the frame which is very beneficial.

ISO2200 will always result in some smearing of fine detail and apparent lack of sharpness, that's what happens and the effect is made much worse by any cropping or a small subject in the frame.

The kit looks fine, you just need the right conditions to use it in. Photography is about light.
Click to expand...

I guess you're right, thanks.
 
heron_AI said:
Tomorrow I will setup both cameras on tripod side by side and shoot static objects like a brick wall as you suggested. I'm giving up half the focal length with my new equipment so I expect some improvement over P900 in terms of IQ.
Click to expand...


But if that lack of focal length means you end up cropping you'll negate any of the benefits of the bigger sensor in the D5600.
 
heron_AI said:
Yes, the upper image is from D5600 with these settings ISO is 2200, 1/1000, F/6.3, 600mm. The P900 weighs 1kg and I have almost always hand-held it so I'm fairly good at holding a camera steady, I also used to be an archer.
The P900 image is without flash and on really short distance, but here's an unedited image taken with the P900 with exif data intact and taken at full zoom:
Click to expand...

The D5600 and the 150-600mm will have most of its weight 'well forward' so just how are you supporting that weight? And how does it differ to the way you held the P900?

FWIW though many years ago (long after I started photography) I also did archery with 100lb pull simple bows and I have done .22 shooting so learnt the techniques of breath and muscle control. Without knowing that you are indeed holding the camera proficiently again I say prove the body & lens combo is fine or not before you blame it and not user error.
 
Nawty said:
But if that lack of focal length means you end up cropping you'll negate any of the benefits of the bigger sensor in the D5600.
Click to expand...

I agree, I'm aware that I need to get closer to the birds with this camera.
 
heron_AI said:
Tomorrow I will setup both cameras on tripod side by side and shoot static objects like a brick wall as you suggested. I'm giving up half the focal length with my new equipment so I expect some improvement over P900 in terms of IQ.
Click to expand...

Nawty said:
But if that lack of focal length means you end up cropping you'll negate any of the benefits of the bigger sensor in the D5600.
Click to expand...

But please also remember that the native sensor effect on the P900 in regard to DoF even if you shoot at the same aperture.......................the P900 will always for any given aperture have greater DoF than the D5600 at the same settings, this is because of the smaller P900 sensor.

Oh, how ever you process also remember the P900 is doing incamera processing to make the JPEG and even if you set the D5600 to JPEG you have no way of knowing how different the processing will be and how it affects the final image.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top