Interesting blog about the iPad

[joescrivens]

You're still not getting it. And moreover you're proving my point. Apple do everything they can to stop buggy apps from getting in the app store and making the iPhone crash because they know they will get the blame even if it is the app. Fair enough, if they let a buggy app through then they should get the blame.
.

They don't get the blame though and thats what we are asking. WHY NOT? Windows would.

Apple don't get the blame even when an app on my iPhone crashes, facebook keeps crashing and yet I am blaming facebook not apple.

 

[jontucker]

BUT WHY DO WINDOWS GET THAT BLAME IF APPLE DON'T?

I can't make it any more simple than that!

I don't know why you're having such a problem understanding me.

If Apple didn't vet the apps, the iPhone would crash all the time because people would write buggy code and Apple would get the blame for the iPhone crashing the same way that MS do for Windows mobile, regardless of what actually crashed.

Apple don't want their device to crash, regardless of who gets the blame, so they don't let apps/plugins on to it that they think will make it crash or perform badly. Flash is one of them.

 

[joescrivens]

I don't know why you're having such a problem understanding me.

If Apple didn't vet the apps, the iPhone would crash all the time because people would write buggy code and Apple would get the blame for the iPhone crashing the same way that MS do for Windows mobile, regardless of what actually crashed.

Apple don't want their device to crash, regardless of who gets the blame, so they don't let apps/plugins on to it that they think will make it crash or perform badly. Flash is one of them.

But when those apps do crash why don't apple get the blame when they should? This is the question we are asking.

 

[jontucker]

But when those apps do crash why don't apple get the blame when they should? This is the question we are asking.

I'm sure they do among the general iPhone using public but it doesn't happen very often.

They obviously think that Flash would make it much more common (or some other problem, like battery draining) and that's why they don't want it on the iPhone.

 

[joescrivens]

I can't help but think we are arguing two different points here Jon, all your reference to Apple vetting apps and why it is good is totally understood. The point we are making is that if something crashes on a windows mobile device no matter what caused the crash Windows is blamed.

an app that crashed on an Apple mobile device apple will not be blamed no matter what the cause. Our point is why do people have that different perception - why isn't it Apple's fault when an app they vetted crashed?

 

[joescrivens]

I'm sure they do among the general iPhone using public but it doesn't happen very often.

They obviously think that Flash would make it much more common (or some other problem, like battery draining) and that's why they don't want it on the iPhone.

I really don't think they do, thats our point, the general perception is that if something fails to work on an apple device, it was the applications fault but vice versa on a windows device and I have to agree, I never blame OSX but I always blame the app whether it be on a mobile or computer device, yet I slag off windows when office crashes on windows and I use office for mac and slag off office when it crashes on my mac and not the OS.

we are we so biased?

 

[jontucker]

an app that crashed on an Apple mobile device apple will not be blamed no matter what the cause. Our point is why do people have that different perception - why isn't it Apple's fault when an app they vetted crashed?

No, I think we are arguing the same point but I disagree with you. On a desktop OS then yes Windows/Linux get the blame and OSX does't but that is to do with the perception of the Hardware/OS I think (as you were saying back along).

With mobile OS's I don't think there is a difference. Apple or MS or whoever get the blame but the difference is Apple have a means of ensuring that their OS crashes as little as possible.

 

[joescrivens]

No, I think we are arguing the same point but I disagree with you. On a desktop OS then yes Windows/Linux get the blame and OSX does't but that is to do with the perception of the Hardware/OS I think (as you were saying back along).

With mobile OS's I don't think there is a difference. Apple or MS or whoever get the blame but the difference is Apple have a means of ensuring that their OS crashes as little as possible.

so you think that when a device crashes on an iPhone people blame the iPhone?

because in my experience and the reason that this was brought up the fact is it doesn't happen, people blame the app.

(fact used there as a turn of phrase and not literal )

 

[jontucker]

so you think that when a device crashes on an iPhone people blame the iPhone?

because in my experience and the reason that this was brought up the fact is it doesn't happen, people blame the app.

(fact used there as a turn of phrase and not literal )

Not people who discuss it on forums, no. The average user wouldn't differentiate though and besides, even if they did blame the app, it would affect iPhone sales and Apple obviously don't want that. The iPhone doesn't have a reputation for crashing all the time and, like it or not and regardless of who's fault it would be if it did, that is because Apple vet what goes on it.

 

[joescrivens]

Not people who discuss it on forums, no. The average user wouldn't differentiate though and besides, even if they did blame the app, it would affect iPhone sales and Apple obviously don't want that. The iPhone doesn't have a reputation for crashing all the time and, like it or not and regardless of who's fault it would be if it did, that is because Apple vet what goes on it.

Well I agree with you about everything apart from where people envision where the blame lays. I really think the perception is that apple is not at fault for any crashing, I even think it myself.

Anyway back to the topic of the iPad, I wonder if there is potential for it to become a graphics tablet. I don't know how the wacom pen and touch tablet works but if an app is developed that differentiates between the surface area of the contact then I see no reason why a pen and touch enabled app couldn't be mad for the ipad that could enable it to work in such a way with the added benefit of the screen in font of you kind of like my Sympodium tablet I use. The connection could be through the pin to stop any video latency over a wireless network. would be interesting

 

[jontucker]

Well I agree with you about everything apart from where people envision where the blame lays. I really think the perception is that apple is not at fault for any crashing, I even think it myself.

Ok well we were discussing why the iPhone (and therefore iPad as it runs iPhone OS - and thus still on topic!) doesn't support Flash and I believe that's why. Apple will want to protect the iPad in the same way and I think that's a good thing, I want a device that's reliable and doesn't crash all the time, why wouldn't I?

 

[joescrivens]

Ok well we were discussing why the iPhone (and therefore iPad as it runs iPhone OS - and thus still on topic!) doesn't support Flash and I believe that's why. Apple will want to protect the iPad in the same way and I think that's a good thing, I want a device that's reliable and doesn't crash all the time, why wouldn't I?

we were but then we started discussing why apple doesnt get blamed for crashes and windows does which was a sideline to why they may or may not support flash.

Besides, the general public who want flash don't know that flash is the main cause of crashing they just blame the browser or who's ever web page they were on mostly. No-one in my house even realises when they are actually interacting with flash instead of just a normal page.

So these people won't accept that answer from Apple, they'll just want Apple to solve it so it doesn't crash and let them have it.

 

[jontucker]

So these people won't accept that answer from Apple, they'll just want Apple to solve it so it doesn't crash and let them have it.

Are they not trying to solve it? And is it Apples responsibility to do it? (There you go blaming Apple for an app not working )

 

[ding76uk]

The other thread on this was fine then it started to become like this. No one can talk about the iPad in terms of what it will and will not do now until the launch of the device. There is no point arguing and being fanboyish (on both sides) because it will get locked again. I think the only reason people are arguing etc. is because there is nothing to talk about! It has launched, No one has any real time with the device, no one has seen the apps this device will run, and no one even knows for sure if flash will ever come to the device.

Please can we all just leave this til the iPad is commercially available and we have something a bit more concrete than people on here and in the media speculating about how it is rubbish or brilliant, because right at this moment no one knows. They said the pod would fail, they were wrong, they said the iphone would, they were wrong. Will the iPad be third time lucky? The future of computing? A load of rubbish? The answer is no one knows yet so can we please stop going on about things until we do!

 

[joescrivens]

Are they not trying to solve it? And is it Apples responsibility to do it? (There you go blaming Apple for an app not working )

You claim that they don't want it on there because it crashes, so according to you they don't want flash.


Theres a difference between blaming Apple for a service they dont yet provide and blaming them for crashes!

who knows who's responsibility it is, I don't know enough about the technicalities of the flash plugin, maybe the current safari plugin works with the iphone safari app?

 

[joescrivens]

The other thread on this was fine then it started to become like this. No one can talk about the iPad in terms of what it will and will not do now until the launch of the device. There is no point arguing and being fanboyish (on both sides) because it will get locked again. I think the only reason people are arguing etc. is because there is nothing to talk about! It has launched, No one has any real time with the device, no one has seen the apps this device will run, and no one even knows for sure if flash will ever come to the device.

Please can we all just leave this til the iPad is commercially available and we have something a bit more concrete than people on here and in the media speculating about how it is rubbish or brilliant, because right at this moment no one knows. They said the pod would fail, they were wrong, they said the iphone would, they were wrong. Will the iPad be third time lucky? The future of computing? A load of rubbish? The answer is no one knows yet so can we please stop going on about things until we do!

relax, if you don't want to see threads like this then don't open them, nobody is forcing you to read or comment in them.

We're having a nice on topic discussion cheers.

so how about the iPad as a graphics tablet as mentioned above? anyone see any plusses or minuses to this concept?

 

[jontucker]

Theres a difference between blaming Apple for a service they dont yet provide and blaming them for crashes!

who knows who's responsibility it is, I don't know enough about the technicalities of the flash plugin, maybe the current safari plugin works with the iphone safari app?

Well I can tell you that Apple don't write the Flash plugin for either browser, they just don't want it on the iPhone/iPad in it's current state.

 

[jontucker]

We're having a nice on topic discussion cheers.

 

[Kaouthia]

so how about the iPad as a graphics tablet as mentioned above? anyone see any plusses or minuses to this concept?

It would be extremely awesome if you could run it as a Windows Sideshow device to work in this way. Mirror your Photoshop image full frame on the iPad, then touch to draw/tweak/whatever.

Never going to happen through.

 

[jontucker]

It would be extremely awesome if you could run it as a Windows Sideshow device to work in this way. Mirror your Photoshop image full frame on the iPad, then touch to draw/tweak/whatever.

Never going to happen through.

I would have thought that could be achieved with some sort of RDP client so maybe it will happen!? :shrug:

 

[joescrivens]

Well I can tell you that Apple don't write the Flash plugin for either browser, they just don't want it on the iPhone/iPad in it's current state.

are you sure it's that?

How about the theory before that you said it's because the code cannot be vetted and inefficient code in flash will cause crashes no matter what the plugin is like?

I think as long as the crash just crashes the flash itself and not the browser you are viewing it in then it might be ok

 

[joescrivens]

It would be extremely awesome if you could run it as a Windows Sideshow device to work in this way. Mirror your Photoshop image full frame on the iPad, then touch to draw/tweak/whatever.

Never going to happen through.

why do you say never going to happen?

 

[Kaouthia]

Because it's an Apple product, and Sideshow is an extension to Windows (it basically allows you to use external devices to expand your display, sort of).

Like I can use my Windows Mobile phone via a USB bluetooth adapter as a Sideshow device for my PC. So, I can basically use it as a remote control for Windows Media Center, for example - and the display shown on the mobile, and buttons it has update according to what I'm trying to do with Media Center.

 

[jontucker]

are you sure it's that?

How about the theory before that you said it's because the code cannot be vetted and inefficient code in flash will cause crashes no matter what the plugin is like?

I think as long as the crash just crashes the flash itself and not the browser you are viewing it in then it might be ok

I was talking about the code in the Flash plugin not the code that it runs when it finds a Flash app on a web page, although that might be a factor, I don't know.

In the link that I posted (that doesn't work ), Jobs talks about the fact that the Flash plugin is buggy on OSX, not just the iPhone. They can control the iPhone plugins though, whereas they cannot control OSX plugins.

 

[joescrivens]

Because it's an Apple product, and Sideshow is an extension to Windows (it basically allows you to use external devices to expand your display, sort of).

Like I can use my Windows Mobile phone via a USB bluetooth adapter as a Sideshow device for my PC. So, I can basically use it as a remote control for Windows Media Center, for example - and the display shown on the mobile, and buttons it has update according to what I'm trying to do with Media Center.

but I've got something exactly like that for my iPhone, VNC, it's like a remote desktop. Thats not a windows specific feature. I can control my iMac screen with my iPhone - is that what you mean?

 

[joescrivens]

I was talking about the code in the Flash plugin not the code that it runs when it finds a Flash app on a web page, although that might be a factor, I don't know.

In the link that I posted (that doesn't work ), Jobs talks about the fact that the Flash plugin is buggy on OSX, not just the iPhone. They can control the iPhone plugins though, whereas they cannot control OSX plugins.

yeah well individual flash can be the issue not just the flash plugin. I code in flash and inefficient code that causes infinite loops etc will crash the plugin, thats not the plugins fault thats my fault for the inefficient code

 

[Kaouthia]

but I've got something exactly like that for my iPhone, VNC, it's like a remote desktop. Thats not a windows specific feature. I can control my iMac screen with my iPhone - is that what you mean?

Doesn't VNC just duplicate the display? This is treated as a separate display device.

 

[jontucker]

yeah well individual flash can be the issue not just the flash plugin. I code in flash and inefficient code that causes infinite loops etc will crash the plugin, thats not the plugins fault thats my fault for the inefficient code

Indeed, I have done a bit of AS2 coding myself. From the way Jobs talks though it is specific to the plugin written for OSX (which iPhone OS is a derivative of).

 

[joescrivens]

Doesn't VNC just duplicate the display? This is treated as a separate display device.

VNC duplicates the display yes and then I can control it - but thats what I would want for using it as a tablet right? I want to see the image on my iPad the same as I can on my monitor and adjust it accordingly?

why would I want to extend my screen onto the pad?

 

[jontucker]

Doesn't VNC just duplicate the display? This is treated as a separate display device.

VNC does duplicate the display but that's not to say that the same sort of thing couldn't be implemented to control individual MS apps.

There is a remote app on the iPhone to control Apple TV which displays some of the same stuff as you see on the screen.

 

[Kaouthia]

I wouldn't want to see a 1920x1080 display scaled down to fit the iPad's display, along with full user interface (application title bar, menus, photoshop palettes, etc).

If I were using it as a graphics tablet, I'd *only* want to see the contents of my image on that display.

"Why would I want to extend my screen onto the pad" is a bit like asking "Why would I want to use more than one monitor on my PC?"

Here's a little more info on sideshow...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_SideShow
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-vista/features/sideshow.aspx

 

[joescrivens]

I wouldn't want to see a 1920x1080 display scaled down to fit the iPad's display, along with full user interface (application title bar, menus, photoshop palettes, etc).

If I were using it as a graphics tablet, I'd *only* want to see the contents of my image on that display.

"Why would I want to extend my screen onto the pad" is a bit like asking "Why would I want to use more than one monitor on my PC?"

Here's a little more info on sideshow...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_SideShow
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-vista/features/sideshow.aspx

I meant for graphics purposes, I can see why extending your screen in other purposes would be good. But what you descirbe makes sense, it's not exactly extending your screen it's just viewing the image portion of the screen. This could be done, Adobe themselves could develop an app which does this and works in tandem with photoshop.

Also it doesn't have to be scaled down to fit the parameters, VNC achieves this be scrolling across the whole display at a resolution that makes sense for the iphone

 

[ding76uk]

relax, if you don't want to see threads like this then don't open them, nobody is forcing you to read or comment in them.

We're having a nice on topic discussion cheers.

Fine I will leave you to it, but am pretty sure this will close, as it is now way off topic and an argument over stuff which currently has nothing to do with the iPad.

Have fun discussing irrelevant factors.

 

[joescrivens]

Fine I will leave you to it, but am pretty sure this will close, as it is now way off topic and an argument over stuff which currently has nothing to do with the iPad.

Have fun discussing irrelevant factors.

So discussing whether or not the iPad can be used for a graphics tablet is way off topic?

I think you may be skimming

 

[ding76uk]

I think you may not have read some of page 4 and almost all of page 5. Unless crashing is something to do with the iPad (you spoke of general mac windows). As I say I just don't find it relevant and will wait for hard info.

 

[joescrivens]

I think you may not have read some of page 4 and almost all of page 5. Unless crashing is something to do with the iPad (you spoke of general mac windows). As I say I just don't find it relevant and will wait for hard info.

Well if I didn't read any of it I can't imagine how I was replying. It matters not what we were talking about then what we are talking about now is very relevant.

back on tpic:

I wonder how the form factor of the pad will work as a graphics tablet- the current tablets are flush to the surface whereas this will be curved on the back - could be a limiting factor

 

[Kaouthia]

But I'd want independent display & control of the pad from what's displayed on my monitor.

Really it's no different to having a second monitor on your system that just displays the image full screen without all the rest of the interface stuff that would normally get displayed on a primary monitor. Or having a TV hooked up to your PC so you can get a full screen view when working in Adobe AfterEffects or Premiere.

The advantage of being able to use a sideshow device would simply be that this screen is now able to be used as an input device at the same time.

One technique often used in Photoshop when using multiple monitors (as it gives you the space to do so), is to have a clone of your image come up filling the screen on another display so that as you zoom into one to edit, you can see how the tweak or fix looks without having to constantly zoom in and out every 2 seconds. A change may look fine when you're zoomed in at 800%, but blaringly obvious that it's been modified when viewed at 100% or "Fit to screen" and not fit in with the image at all.

Having the ability to zoom in and out and edit on an iPad (or similarly sized Sideshow touchscreen/pen display), and still be able to access all the palettes, and see a "fit to screen" view on the main PC would be very useful for me.

Essentially you could get a similar result with one of these tablet laptops with the flippy around touchscreen display...

...but with a couple of extra monitors plugged in.

 

[jontucker]

I think you may not have read some of page 4 and almost all of page 5. Unless crashing is something to do with the iPad (you spoke of general mac windows). As I say I just don't find it relevant and will wait for hard info.

I can't speak for anyone else but I was discussing the reason that Apple won't allow the Adobe Flash player plugin in to iPhoneOS (because it's buggy and crashes, apparently). Since the iPad runs iPhoneOS I'm at a loss as to how that is off topic? :shrug:

With regard to the iPad being used as a graphics tablet, that depends entirely on the developer community. It would be entirely possible for someone to develope such a thing, even if it requires an app running on the PC being controlled. I can't wait to see what the devs to with this thing!!

 

[joescrivens]

But I'd want independent display & control of the pad from what's displayed on my monitor.

Really it's no different to having a second monitor on your system that just displays the image full screen without all the rest of the interface stuff that would normally get displayed on a primary monitor. Or having a TV hooked up to your PC so you can get a full screen view when working in Adobe AfterEffects or Premiere.

The advantage of being able to use a sideshow device would simply be that this screen is now able to be used as an input device at the same time.

One technique often used in Photoshop when using multiple monitors (as it gives you the space to do so), is to have a clone of your image come up filling the screen on another display so that as you zoom into one to edit, you can see how the tweak or fix looks without having to constantly zoom in and out every 2 seconds. A change may look fine when you're zoomed in at 800%, but blaringly obvious that it's been modified when viewed at 100% or "Fit to screen" and not fit in with the image at all.

Having the ability to zoom in and out and edit on an iPad (or similarly sized Sideshow touchscreen/pen display), and still be able to access all the palettes, and see a "fit to screen" view on the main PC would be very useful for me.

Essentially you could get a similar result with one of these tablet laptops with the flippy around touchscreen display...

...but with a couple of extra monitors plugged in.

can you tell me more about how to do this? I have a third screen that I always have to drag my image over to do any tablet work on, but then drag it back to see it full res as my tablet screen is only 1024x768. This would be awesome.

 

[Amp34]

You forgot about the part where you have to move your trackpad 4 times, this in itself is easier with a touch screen. How about zooming in and out and not doing so in stages defined by your software by using keyboard shortcuts, I mean full manual control of zoom

you can't argue that this will all be easier with a netbook. You are counting clicks I'm talking about ease of use

Yes, I move my finger a cm or two left then right instead of 10-15 cm in thin air... It could be argued it takes less effort and easier to use a track pad.

As for zooming, thats what the scroll lines are for at the sides of the track pad, easy... As for pinch to zoom I've never been very happy about it, it's counter intuative to me, luckily HTC phones allow both pinch to zoom and tapping.

This is coming from someone who actually wants a slate/touch screen device, they won't be easier, just different.