Interesting

Well I've never watched the simpsons, but I agree with him lol.

I also agree with whoever it was in the same programme who referred to the French as "cheese eating surrender monkeys" (saw that on QI :LOL: )
 
Steve Smith said:
That's your choice and you can do that without any law being passed.

Equally, it's someone else's right not to be identifiable in public. I'm sure there won't be a ban on wigs, glasses and fake moustaches.


Steve.
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Ahem no you cannot! Unfortunately it is not a business choice. It is not even a personal choice. Currently the law is one side and I can be done for discrimination. I do not have such choice and that is exactly what the problem is. It should be equality for all, if there was then such a thing than a ban wouldn't have been necessary.

People refusing to take it off, organisations having to bend over backwards to get female officers involved to deal with it. Such a hassle and waste of money for an unnecessary choice purely designed to annoy others.

If those that choose that garment don't have the right to special treatment than there wouldn't be this issue.


Equality for all that is the key.
 
dejongj said:
I'm very happy about this. Don't like this hiding ones face in public at all, it doesn't aid communication. Much more workable to just have a blanket ban opposed to not do it here, but can do it there.

If they want to hide their face they can do it in the privacy of their own home.

It is a shame that a ban was necessary however refusal to apply common sense, like in shots and other service industries, they've brought this on themselves

Just my 2p
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Ps I'm not dyslectic, I blame the terrible spelling o ios8. I've raised a big report with apple :p #furstworldproblems
 
dejongj said:
Ps I'm not dyslectic, I blame the terrible spelling o ios8. I've raised a big report with apple :p #furstworldproblems
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I'm sure Apple are quaking :LOL:
 
simon ess said:
I suspect it has a lot to do with France's determined secularism, a legacy of 1789, as well as its constitutionally enforced separation of state and religion.
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....and the French don't take s**t.... :D



.
 
Oddly enough isn't it the fear regarding muslim fundementalism and terrorism that has bought this item to the fore?

I always thought the French were doing it so that people could be identified easily for public safety?
 
When I flew out to Bahrain last year at Heathrow Airport to join my ship I was carrying a full British passport and a MoD 90 ID card. At passport control I got the usual have a safe trip Sir after queuing for ages. Two women in front wearing burkas flashed their passports and went straight through ! To this day I have no idea if they went to a separate room to be ID'd. They were frisked with a baton metal detector but that was it. Then straight on to baggage search. Now that's just not right in my opinion.
 
So long as there are cases of people hiding their identity by wearing religious dress (which there are), it poses a security risk to all of us. Which is more important, respecting someone's religious beliefs, or protecting everyone from harm?

As usual, emotions over-rule logic, and that's not how decisions on such matters should be made. France got it right. Sure, some people will be offended by the decision, but it's increasingly important to be able to identify people, and wearing a niqab prevents that. I'd not be allowed to enter a bank with a crash helmet on, because it makes absolute sense that I take it off. What's the problem? If you choose to wear something that causes a security problem, then you are causing a problem. Also.. there's nothing in the quran saying women have to cover everything. I've not read it, but this debate is not new, and theologians that have read it, have been saying for ages that there's no religious reason why the niqab needs to be worn.

I'm a firm believe that people should have absolute free speech and expression, but when it risks the lives of others, then it needs careful consideration, and that's exactly what France have done, and reached the right conclusion IMO.

The unfortunate thing is that people are reluctant to agree with France's decision these days because they fear being branded racist, or some sort of loony EDL supporter. I'm a lefty, Guardian reading arty-farty lecturer, and I agree with France. Common sense MUST prevail.
 
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Wow a lefty guardian reader writing common sense :p

I'm at the other end, but very liberal, however these people had a choice and they decided to play silly buggers. I find it a sad day when the law has to interfere, but fortunate there is that last resort.
 
BTW, have they found that terror suspect who absconded from a London mosque, dressed in a burka, yet?
 
I really don't know which side of the fence I fall on this... Some Muslim women genuinely want to wear the veil - it's part of their identity. It's discriminatory from both perspectives.
 
Given that the West has spent billions killing Muslims in the name of freedom and democracy, the ruling eroding part of that freedom does seem a little ironic.
 
I believe that any garment that covers your face sufficiently so that you cannot be identified should be banned.....that goes for the Islamic face coverings, balaclavas and scarfs/hoodies...there is no need for it today's society......like France states if you don't like it..... leave...if my wife was to wear a bikini in an Islamic state she would be stoned to death or if I was to wear a balaclava I would say that I would be spending a little time explaining my actions....one of my mates is a female and Muslim and she says that you do not even need to cover your hair...it all depends on how hardcore that you want to be or should I say how hardcore your husband and family are..BAN ALL FACE COVERINGS.......
 
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Or alternative, if when requested to reveal your face people just do so then there would not have been a need for any of this....
 
dejongj said:
Or alternative, if when requested to reveal your face people just do so then there would not have been a need for any of this....
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Alternatively there ought to be no need to make such a request…I don't agree often with the French, but they've got this right.
 
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Eddzz!! said:
I really don't know which side of the fence I fall on this... Some Muslim women genuinely want to wear the veil - it's part of their identity. It's discriminatory from both perspectives.
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I want to do some things too but the law stops me!!

Some Muslims genuinely want sharia law so does that mean to not allow it is discriminatory?

As we saw from the recent halal meat debate, unless u stock halal, kosher, 'normal', quorn etc... you are discriminating there. Can't please everyone!
 
chadders said:
Alternatively there ought to be no need to make such a request…I don't agree often with the French, but they've got this right.
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Hmm not sure about that one...afterall and assuming best intentions, they can't be mind readers to ascertain whether you have an issue with it or not, whether you would prefer to see who you are dealing with or not....However if someone kindly requests, then it should be obliged without issue or argument...Or accept that you may not get served without the right to cry wolf about it...Less laws are always preferable to me.
 
dejongj said:
Hmm not sure about that one...afterall and assuming best intentions, they can't be mind readers to ascertain whether you have an issue with it or not, whether you would prefer to see who you are dealing with or not....However if someone kindly requests, then it should be obliged without issue or argument...Or accept that you may not get served without the right to cry wolf about it...Less laws are always preferable to me.
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Well, let's look at that this way. You can take away any uncertainty by just not covering your face in the first place. No need for mind reading or complaints etc, etc.
If one has spent any time living (as opposed to holidaying) in a Moslem country, one soon realises (and if you don't realise it then it will soon be made plain) what are the acceptable dress codes when in public. As has been stated by other posters, to cover one's face is a cultural thing, not a religious requirement. in this country we do not have a cultural tradition of covering our faces in public, preferring to see and "know" who we are speaking to and with whom we are dealing, at all times.
 
hmmmm you have two sides of the coin here the moslem women in northern european christian countries want to cover there full body ,yet the women from those countries who go on holiday to moslem countries can often be seen in just a thong around the hotel pools .and although its allegedly frowned upon its not stopped under the guise of tourism .

i guess its best to stick to the old when in rome adage .the whole worlds going crazy at the moment though so who can predict what another 5 years will bring
 
chadders said:
Well, let's look at that this way. You can take away any uncertainty by just not covering your face in the first place. No need for mind reading or complaints etc, etc.
If one has spent any time living (as opposed to holidaying) in a Moslem country, one soon realises (and if you don't realise it then it will soon be made plain) what are the acceptable dress codes when in public. As has been stated by other posters, to cover one's face is a cultural thing, not a religious requirement. in this country we do not have a cultural tradition of covering our faces in public, preferring to see and "know" who we are speaking to and with whom we are dealing, at all times.
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I think I'm more liberal. Why should be restrict a choice. I agree religion has nothing to do with it, however that wouldnt be an excuse not to reveal oneself either.

Hey if someone want to cover themselves up its fine by me. However id also want the right when I'm serving or interacting with someone to see them, or if they refuse to deny the service and stop attempting to interact.

Choices for both sides, and as always with choices come consequences.
 
I do like the way the French just get on and deal with things their way, but I'm not in full agreement with them here. I think people should be free to wear what they want in public as long as they aren't exposing genitals etc. When anyone has an interaction with a public authority they should be required to show their face, and I also think this should be the case in schools and colleges. It is polite.

Today, as every day, I will be riding my motorbike and as it's sunny today I'll have a black visor on. The only part of my body that will be visible is my neck....would this get me nicked in France? If I need to have a conversation with someone I'll take my helmet off, same as if I have to go to Sainsburys this should be the same for those wearing full face coverings.

At work I've only ever dealt with one driver wearing a full face covering. It was quite easily resolved when I told her that if I couldn't identify her I'd be arresting her, which is the same for everyone, and the face cover was lifted up without complaint. From speaking to colleagues this is generally the case.
 
Don't be daft. You can't identify anyone just by being able to see their face (that's assuming they are a stranger to you). People don't have their identities tattooed on their foreheads.
 
Stuart M said:
Don't be daft. You can't identify anyone just by being able to see their face (that's assuming they are a stranger to you). People don't have their identities tattooed on their foreheads.
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If the person stopped has produced a driving license then you'd need to see their face to check it is theirs, or is that just too much common sense?
 
Sharky said:
If the person stopped has produced a driving license then you'd need to see their face to check it is theirs, or is that just too much common sense?
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Not only that, a terrorist escaped recently in this way - had you simply removed the veil you would have seen its a bloke - 2+2 = something suspect
 
Sharky said:
If the person stopped has produced a driving license then you'd need to see their face to check it is theirs, or is that just too much common sense?
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Why? My driving licence hasn't got my photograph on it. You assume too much.
 
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Eddzz!! said:
Obstructing a Police Officer from carrying out his/her duties
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But I thought you were not obliged to identify yourself unless you were arrested.

The police can stop anyone in a public place and ask you to account for yourself. For example, you could be asked to account for your actions, behaviour, presence in an area or possession of anything. When the police stop you and ask you for an explanation, you don't need to provide your personal details
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From: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/law_e/law_legal_system_e/law_police_e/police_powers.htm


Steve.
 
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Stuart M said:
No you didn't. You got caught talking out of your backside and then it took you 25 minutes to figure out a response in an effort to save face
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Don't act like such an anus. People are trying to have a grown-up conversation.
 
Get a room :LOL:
 
Stuart M said:
No you didn't. You got caught talking out of your backside and then it took you 25 minutes to figure out a response in an effort to save face
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To be fair, the paper driving licences were replaced by the photocards back in 1998, so even if it WAS an assumption, id say it would normally be quite a safe one seeing as its been 16 years...
 
the black fox said:
hmmmm you have two sides of the coin here the moslem women in northern european christian countries want to cover there full body ,yet the women from those countries who go on holiday to moslem countries can often be seen in just a thong around the hotel pools .and although its allegedly frowned upon its not stopped under the guise of tourism .

i guess its best to stick to the old when in rome adage .the whole worlds going crazy at the moment though so who can predict what another 5 years will bring
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It's not two sides of the same coin by any means. The fact that western women may disport themselves in bikinis around hotel pools is no comparison with women going about with their faces veiled in Europe.

Away from any holiday resort in the Gulf, try walking in the town in shorts and a vest or shorter skirt. I think you'll find that the locals will soon show their displeasure in no uncertain terms. I've seen it happen. There will be no consideration of your feelings and no complaint procedure to invoke. I'm not suggesting a ban on the veil as some kind of tit for tat measure, merely that cultural differences exist in the world. Our culture is that women do not go about veiled. All ambiguities about when and where it acceptable can be removed by discouraging the practice whenever and wherever it occurs. Failing that we can always follow the French lead.
 
Sharky said:
Correct but if the officer is not satisfied with the answers or you refuse to answer they can detain you for the purpose of conducting further enquires. Doesn't have to mean arrest but it may me a visit to a police station.
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If you have the right not to identify yourself (unless arrested) exercising that right cannot be a reason for arrest. An officer must have good reason that a crime has been or is likely to be carried out in order to arrest someone. You can't just be arrested in order to answer further questions.


Steve.
 
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