Inversion vs Twizzle Stick

Messages
169
Name
Matt
Edit My Images
No
What is the difference between inversions when developing and using what I am affectionately calling the 'twizzle stick' to spin the film around on the spool? They seem to achieve the same thing to me, i.e. mixing the chemicals around to ensure fresh chemicals contact the surface of the film? Avoiding the use of an ill-fitting paterson lid to do inversions would please me immensely. Am I likely to see any difference in the final result, if so, what?
 
Inversions or stand developing for me, I have no time for fancy dandy twizzle sticks.
 
I always use inversion - even though I usually get drips. My reasons are:

1. Rotating the spiral could force the end of the film out if done in the wrong direction. Perhaps I'm too vigorous, but I experimented years ago with a tank after completing the processing to see what would happen. It clearly put the film under some stress to bulge away from the grooves.

2. Inversion presumably will cause a drain of chemicals into the void in the tank, and mix fresher/partially used developer. Rotation would tend to only mix chemicals in each groove, so I suspect better mixing results from inversion.

I doubt that any difference would be noticeable, and I haven't made any "real" experiements to test the theory. In my case, I can see potential problems with one method that aren't there in the other, so I stick with inversion.
 
I've only ever used the stick. I tried doing inversions with C41 once. Only once though as I managed to make a complete mess everywhere :D

It's not the mess I'm scared of, it's the missus!

Inversions or stand developing for me, I have no time for fancy dandy twizzle sticks.

Use of the stick is probably just laziness on my part

I always use inversion - even though I usually get drips. My reasons are:

1. Rotating the spiral could force the end of the film out if done in the wrong direction. Perhaps I'm too vigorous, but I experimented years ago with a tank after completing the processing to see what would happen. It clearly put the film under some stress to bulge away from the grooves.

2. Inversion presumably will cause a drain of chemicals into the void in the tank, and mix fresher/partially used developer. Rotation would tend to only mix chemicals in each groove, so I suspect better mixing results from inversion.

I doubt that any difference would be noticeable, and I haven't made any "real" experiements to test the theory. In my case, I can see potential problems with one method that aren't there in the other, so I stick with inversion.

I've not had any problems with No. 1, and there's always a blank portion of the film at each end so I'm not too worried about it getting tweaked. I twizzle slowly in both directions, back and forth. Never considered that it should be done in a specific direction.

The logic of No. 2 does stand up with me however, so I'll try the inversions and see if there's any difference.

Thanks guys!
 
Twizzle sticks usually come with tanks built to the Paterson design. Paterson instructions say that the stick should be used for the initial agitation to help dispell air bells on the film, after that the inversion cap should be fitted and inversion used. With Jobo, Hewes and many other tanks there is no stick and only inversion (or rotation for Jobo tanks) is available. Can't find my hard copy at the moment but this link has same info.


http://35mm-compact.com/manuels/paterson-uk.htm


This is a pdf of the copy I have http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Paterson/Developing_Tanks/Instructions/System4.pdf
 
Last edited:
Newer Paterson tanks with the Tupperware style lid don't leak when inverted, the older style with the centre cap do leak. With the older tanks, I'd always use the twizzle stick, with the new ones, I'd always invert.
 
Inversions, all day every day. Blimmin twizzle sticks, pah, new fangled nonsense.

So long as you pop the top and make sure there is no excess air in the tank you shouldn't get any leaks.
 
So long as you pop the top and make sure there is no excess air in the tank you shouldn't get any leaks.

Yeah that's where I went wrong I think, I didn't pop the lid to let the air out so it popped itself and squirted a bit developer on the floor. Lucky it wasn't blix though or I'd be dead :D
 
I've done a fair few rolls with both techniques now in my new type Paterson tank. Must have done over 40 rolls now, and I can't say I've noticed any difference in end result. I just use the twizzle stick now for simplicity of use and less risk of spilling any and getting chewed up and spat out by the demon I live with. :confused::mad::exit:
 
I go for a general sloshing motion, then a good tap on the side of the sink to get rid of bubbles.
 
In chemistry, rates of reaction are proportional, among other things, to temperature; hotter the environment, usually the faster the reaction; hence in colour processing the 'adjustments' for different bath temps; then it is proportional to solution concentrations; which s why in B&W you often have different dev times for mixing solutions at different strengths, say 3:1, 5:1 & 9:1.
But that is at a 'bulk' scale.

In the camera, making an actual exposure, you are trying to 'cheat' the chemistry; where light falls it catalyses the oxidisation reaction of the silver halide emulsion. Where light falls, it starts to oxidise, where it doesn't it doesn't... in the tank, you are doing the same, 'boosting' that reaction, and getting tickled areas to turn black, and untickled ones to stay white... you are actually deliberately trying to cause what in chemistry would be known as an 'incomplete reaction'

For example, chemical equation for burning methane, in oxygen, is CH4+O2=> CO2+H2O.. only what you have to start, you have to have at the end, so while that equation describes the chemicals you start with, and what they get turned in to, it's not quite right as far as the quantities, because I started with CH4, which is one carbon and four hydrogen, at the end, I have one carbon in the CO2, but have lost a few hydrogen with only one in the H2O... It's been two many years since I had to balance equations, and I haven't had enough coffee yet to do the maths,,, but you could, 'balance' the equation to put the correct proportions in so you have as much C,H&O on one side as other.

In photography, however we are trying to 'cheat' the chemistry and deliberately NOT get a 'complete' reaction.. we don't want to turn ALL the silver halide we have to silver oxide.. what we want to do is, turn the sliver halide that has been partially oxidised by light into silver oxide, and NOT oxidize that which hasn't..... Good game, good game......... we are trying, because we are actually relying on it to create a 'partial reaction'.. So we start with an excess of solution.. there's enough oxidsing agent it, to turn every bit of silver halide into silver oxide... but we don't want t ALL black, so we have to let the solution get to work, but stop it before it's finished... and hopefuly we have a picture rather than a black frame....

It's a bit like trying to set fire to a match-head.. and NOT burn it all, but lea a pattern of un-burned sulfur in he ash!

NOW.... this is why times and concentrations get important.... remember, stronger the solution, less time the reaction needs.... BUT inside the tank, where you have dense regions on the negative that have had a lot of light, solution will come int contact with them and start to oxidise the halide quite quickly... BUT as t does so, it will deplete the concentraton of the solution.... so the reacton in THAT area will start to slow down..... meawhile in thin regions of the neg, there's not a lot of tckled halide, it wont be n such a rush to react, and so wont oxidise or oxidse so fast.. BUT the solution ear it will remain that much stronger and the reaction as fast.....

SO... if you didn't agitate, thin areas of the neg, you want to stay light would continue darkening, while dark areas of the neg you do, would slow down and not get as dark, and f you still pulled it from the soup before the picture had all turned black, the contrast would be deminished.

But, if you agitate, theory is that you 'mix' the solution, so locally depleted solution's dark areas, is washed away, and less depleted solution in light areas is mixed up with it to even out the concentration, throughout the whole tank, while at the same time, the ow uniformly weaker than t was solution, is spread over the entire film, and darker areas get solution that is 'stronger' than what was local to it, and the reaction carries on a bit faster, and lighter areas get solution that is weaker than it was, and the reaction continues more slowly, and you get better 'contrast' with more chance that darker areas will have fully developed, and less chance that light areas will have under developed.

Make sense? Oh-Kay......

Now... inversion.... principle is you make air above the film swap places with the solution beneath. In a spiral, you have a very small gap between coils of film, and a lot of chance you get air-bubbles 'stick' to the film... so, by inverting, you can make them move, and get solution to displace them. Meanwhile, as you invert, air has to percolate through the soluton, churing it up, making weak ad strong solution break up ad re-combine to mix it up, then go back to the film and cover the surface.

Twizzlg....you are only moving the film in the solution; what was at the to can stay at the top, what was at the bottom can stay at the bottom, you don't get the degree of relative motion throughout the solution, whilst worse, solution i those little gaps, between the layers of film, can 'stick' a t like treacle to a spoon, to the film surface and NOT get moved, or moved very much, ad much less mixed up.
Imagine trying to stir sugar into a cup of tea, by swirling the cup, rather than using a spoon.

Oh-Kay... there's no really right or wrong answer to whether to twizzle or invert... most correct is probably a bit of both... inversion, is definitely the more rigerouse and more reliable, and from chemical point of view likely to do much more.... so is probably the 'better' technique... I certainly find it so.... but remember we are trying to cheat the chemistry, and some-times it can be too much of a good thing, and mixing the chemistry up so well, you effectively keep the concentration up, and tend to over development, and you can get 'surge' where areas that get a lot of liquid washing past it get a bit more development than others. Relying on twizzling alone, you might not get the mixing, or movement, but not shifting so much fluid so far or swapping it with air, action tends to be more gentle, and you tend to need a lot ore of it to get the same amount of mixing, and there is risk, the viscouse atracton means you dont so readily shift air bubbles and the like.

So personally, of the two, I will invert two or three times, fairly slowly, when I first add solution to 'wet' the film and displace air, then in a 3 minute dev, with an agitation every 30 seconds, I'll probably 'invert' at prescribe intervals, with a quick 'twizzle' in between, just to give it that 'little' it of movement. Of the two I would rely on inversion as sole means of agitation, I wouldn't rely on twizzling as only means of agitation.

BUT... you have a leaky tank lid... so you are using twizzling only, to avoid spill.. ad so denyg yourself one and probably the better technique, and hence introducing possible dev faults for the sake of an equipment fault..... Washing up bowl! Use one! Do your inversions over the bowl to catch spill and avoid mess, and if needs, use extra solution at first fill to allow for any loss during inversion.... and (possibly or, at a pinch!) get a new tank.. they aren't usually all that expensive! Your leaky lid is a fault, and rather than fixing or compensating for that fault, possibly making more in consequence..... and you KNOW what this fault is, you dot have to diagnose it fro surge marks or dev banding or anything... so fix it and eliminate known areas of uncertainty! Its a easy ad obvious and simple one to fix, before you even begin.
 
Wow, that's one helluva post to describe a simple technique. :D
 
I always used stainless tanks, or 3 gallon rubber tanks with Stainless center loading spirals, neither of which has Twizzel sticks or holes to receive one.
the small stainless tanks you must invert, and when using 3 gallon tanks you lift the cradle, full of spirals, right out of the tank and back to agitate.
Both are used on your wet bench so any splashes can be hosed away.
Using 3 gallon tanks the tanks are kept topped up with replenisher and kept fresh with floating lids for repeated use.
Stainless tanks are mostly used with one shot developer which is chucked afterwards for maximum repeatability.

In general terms, for black and white, you develop for a standard Gamma, (contrast) not for a standard density. This is done by time and temperature, and at various standard dilutions.
This enables correctly expose negatives to be printed on normal contrast paper. Or the middle of the range on Multigrade.

Special dilute developers, used with minimal agitation, increase both shadow detail and edge sharpness. The most famous such developers are of the Beutler type, such as Neofin blue.
 
MIke's post contains a number of (chemical) inaccuracies which I won't cover in detail. The one that should be most obvious is the comments about "cheating the developer". It should be fairly obvious that if this were so, development to finality would mean no pictures at all...

Development is an oxidation-reduction process; the developer gets oxidised (which is more of an historic term as oxygen need not be involved!) and the silver halide reduced to silver. Temperature and dilution will control the rate of the reaction (within limits - some developing agents have no effect at low temperatures; go too high and you'll strip the emulsion from the backing) but how far the reaction can proceed depends on the redox potential (and you don't need to know what this means). Too low, and nothing happens; too high and everything (exposed and unexposed) grains will turn to black silver. It's a Goldilocks affair. There are many more chemicals that could reduce the silver halide than are used as developers for this reason - they would be too vigorous to prevent everything going black. Normal developers are chemicals selected to work in the correct range, and should be able to go to finality and still not develop everything, so no cheating involved.

The other point is that as the developer is oxidised (and we all know about keeping developer bottles airtight to prevent this) in theory if inversion mixes air and developer it will use up the developer. So, in theory, the twiddle stick has an advantage. In theory; in practice there's no effect.

I could go into reaction kinetics, the effect of temperature and other arcane matters, but they are the stuff of interest, not by and large essential to know unless you want to depart from the manufacturer's instructions, when it would help to know why they specified the things they did, and the likely effects of departing from the instructions.
 
@Oatcake bet you're glad you asked now.
 
Well I've done hundreds of B\W and colour negs in the past and only twiddled ...and I'll never know if the results would have been better inverting :crying:
 
A couple of Catchecol based developers don't like (continuous) rotation as they oxidise too qucikly and you lose effective speed from the mixture.

Is that caused by using a twiddle stick for a few seconds every minute, or only if you use a motorised drum with small amounts of chemical that requires continuous rotation? I don't use the latter method because if the effects on grain size and acutance.
 
Well I've done hundreds of B\W and colour negs in the past and only twiddled ...and I'll never know if the results would have been better inverting :crying:

I've heard of bromide drag across the short side of 35mm (from the sprocket holes downwards) but never longitudinally; so if you haven't come across it either, twiddling has done you no harm (ooer mother).
 
@Oatcake bet you're glad you asked now.

I didn't think I would spark such controversy!

I'll throw another spanner into the works here, but if I twizzle the bottle of water on my desk everything swooshes about nicely. Invert it and it creates tons of bubbles.

I'll try both twizzling and inverting and see if there's a difference. I suspect there won't be.

Good to get the insights of everyone though. Seems to be potential pros and cons to both methods but since we can't see in the tank I guess we'll never know.

I don't even know if my lid does leak during inversion as I've not tried it yet. All I know is it takes 30 seconds to fill my tank and another 30 seconds fiddling with the lid to try and get it on. That was the main reason I avoided it until now. Maybe that's why they recommend the stick for the initial agitation, so you can then frig about with the lid during your waiting time to the second agitation.
 
What sort of water is in the bottle? Still or sparkling, it will make a difference.

Oxidation is one reason for a recommended method of diluting developer being to let it run in via a glass rod rather than pouring directly....
 
If you really want to know, see if you can find a glass cylinder of about the same diameter as your developing tank and put a spiral (loaded with a sacrificial film) into it, then add a few drops of food dye. See what happens in terms of distribution of colour by rotation, then repeat, simulating inversion by lifting out the spiral and putting it back again.
 
I've heard of bromide drag across the short side of 35mm (from the sprocket holes downwards) but never longitudinally; so if you haven't come across it either, twiddling has done you no harm (ooer mother).

Well the method I learnt was to twist fairly slowly clockwise and anti, also up and down at the same time (as there was up and down play in the dev tank) about 10 secs every min and the dev I was using at the time was about 10mins.
 
Last edited:
Is that caused by using a twiddle stick for a few seconds every minute, or only if you use a motorised drum with small amounts of chemical that requires continuous rotation? I don't use the latter method because if the effects on grain size and acutance.

Its manual continuous rotation in my case, still working on a motor method.
 
Tizzle stick usually although I'm not adverse to inversions and I can't honestly say that I,ve seen any differences to how the film emulsion has reacted to the chemicals

Just to hijack the thread, of those of you who don't twizzle, perhaps you have a spare twizzle stick or two that you'd be happy to part with and send out to me? ...... I had 3 but the cats seem to nick and hide em:confused::mad:
 
Last edited:
I've heard of bromide drag across the short side of 35mm (from the sprocket holes downwards) but never longitudinally; so if you haven't come across it either, twiddling has done you no harm (ooer mother).
I had this with Tri-X but it wasn't bromide drag, it was surge marks from the developer pouring through the sprocket holes as I gently inverted and rotated the tank. The Kodak datasheet for Tri-X says that you need to "vigorously twist your wrist" when using a small tank and once I tried that, no more marks on the negatives.
 
you mean that you actually sat for twenty minutes and read it??.............I saw it and panicked thinking it was somesort of school homework:exit::D:D


Well, no, obviously. I skimmed it but it was way too complicated for my tiny brain so I decided to sit quietly and whistle till the voices stopped.:D
 
Oh dear, wasn't I supposed to read it?
 
Just to hijack the thread, of those of you who don't twizzle, perhaps you have a spare twizzle stick or two that you'd be happy to part with and send out to me? ...... I had 3 but the cats seem to nick and hide em:confused::mad:

It sounds like a waste of time, but...

Which model of Paterson tank do you have? I don't know how many different models that they've made, but I have at least three different designs from the Major II upwards.
 
I have an old vintage developing tank which has a spring loaded 'pogo' type end to the centre column so you can dunk the spool as well as twizzle it using the stick. I can't understand why that design wasn't adopted by other tank manufacturers, perhaps it was patented? :confused: I've never used it though, as the tank lid isn't the tightest of fits, but I kept it just in case as it has a 'universal' spiral spool that will take 116 size film, so if it ever becomes available again I can run some through that big Agfa folder I've got and develop it! :)
 
Oh dear, wasn't I supposed to read it?

You mean you did ?........ALL of it including the punctuation??:wideyed:
I'd need to lie down after that ........for a week or two:D:D
 
Last edited:
It sounds like a waste of time, but...

Which model of Paterson tank do you have? I don't know how many different models that they've made, but I have at least three different designs from the Major II upwards.

Oh Gawd, I dunno, I don't have a box to tell me.....let me take a look and see if I can come up with the correct answer:D

I know that they are all of the same style, just different sizes / volumes.
The last one that I bought had the Mod 54 insert included inside it......does that help?......probably not:confused::p

I'll be back........;)

The first one that I've come across is the largest one and states the following on the lid ( all the others are of the same design):

Patterson Super System 4
 
Last edited:
Since I use a Rondinax, which has the spool axis horizontal and half the film out of the developer, it needs nearly constant rotation, and no inversion. I generally do two part turns at 1 second intervals, then wait 2 seconds and repeat. Seems to work fine. Need to reduce dev times by 15% to compensate.
 
Back
Top