Is "Green Square" mode cheating?

Kim

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Kim
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Yes
Like it says...........................
Try as I might I just can't seem to get the hang of the manual modes on my camera. I have played around with them, read them manual and any tutorial that I can find, but for some reason I just can't get the info to stick in my head.

Part of my feels that is I were to use the "green square" mode on my 20D I woud not be getting the best of my images.

So is being a me being a chicken and sticking to the good old green square cheating?
Or am I in the end going to get a better images by using the manual modes?
 
if it works for you ...

However, what you might want to try next is leaving it on AV where you decide what depth of field you need in your photos and let the camera choose the shutter speeds for you. That was you have control over one important part of the image and let the camera do the rest.

Look here for an explanation of Depth of Field. Forget the diagrams for now, look at the photos and the corresponding 'f' numbers to what you might expect. Try to recreate what they are showing you here (and don't forget to post your results!)

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm

:)
 
I stuck to P mode for a while and really felt as though I was just not really being a photographer (I use that term loosely, only to imply that I carry a camera:D). After a lots of reading on this forum, I switched to AV mode, so all I had to do was think about DoF and the camera would go the rest.

Unless shooting wildlife that moves too quickly for me, I now use it on full manual mode. It was reading the Understanding Exposure book that really made me understand what I needed to do and why.

I think that for the moment get to know your camera and don't worry about being in auto. As you progress and want to explore more then change modes. Then just experiment. Look at shooting the same subject in AV with different apertures and understand the results of each f/stop. Once you have mastered this then consider manual. Many people though do stick to using AV for a lot of the time.

No number of books, manuals or tutorials can make up for getting out there with your camera, having a play and beginning to learn why something happens. Get out there:thumbs:
 
no its not cheating. if thats what youre comfortable with that for the moment while youre learning then thats fine. dont listen to the anti green box nazis..

dont know if this helps but i try and get stuff set in this order:

ISO - i try and split the light up into ISO chunks, like 100 for a nice light day through to 1600 for a dim room light.

AV or TV - static or moving, AV for still and TV for moving

values - apperture and shutter speed values set accordingly

once you get that nailed you can move onto thinking about M
 
You see I have been using AV mode but feel I am getting no where. Try as I might I just can't see any improvement in my photography taking. I wouldn't mind if I was a "newbie" to cameras and was still learning, but I have owned a digital SLR for a good 6/7 years now, so you would have thought I would have mastered it by now.

I look at the images on here and look at what settings have been used, but try as I might to recreate a similar image they never even come close.

Sometimes I feel more of a wannabe rather than someone who is actually a "photographer".
 
To start, I would go for Av. It will select the shutter speed while you get creative with your depth of field.

It should help you to understand the shutter speeds and what the camera is going to use and then raise or lower the ISO where needs be.
 
You see I have been using AV mode but feel I am getting no where. Try as I might I just can't see any improvement in my photography taking. I wouldn't mind if I was a "newbie" to cameras and was still learning, but I have owned a digital SLR for a good 6/7 years now, so you would have thought I would have mastered it by now.

I look at the images on here and look at what settings have been used, but try as I might to recreate a similar image they never even come close.

Sometimes I feel more of a wannabe rather than someone who is actually a "photographer".

Best thing you could do now is tell us why you feel you are getting nowhere.
Is it the exposure settings, are the images blurry, or are you not getting good composition. Give us a sample if you want and we can then start to help you get 'somewhere' :thumbs:

Often we all need a push in the right direction when learning something.
 
You see I have been using AV mode but feel I am getting no where. Try as I might I just can't see any improvement in my photography taking. I wouldn't mind if I was a "newbie" to cameras and was still learning, but I have owned a digital SLR for a good 6/7 years now, so you would have thought I would have mastered it by now.

I look at the images on here and look at what settings have been used, but try as I might to recreate a similar image they never even come close.

Sometimes I feel more of a wannabe rather than someone who is actually a "photographer".

Have you considered the subjects you have been taking? I have looked on your flickr and your shots look good. The last lot of grafitti will not benefit from AV mode at all. Try some graveyard pics of sculpures on old stones - That will give you some good AV experiments.
 
I agree with Richard. Why don't you post a couple of shots in this thread and explain why you're not happy with them. There are loads of people on here who would be only too happy to offer some advice as to how they could be improved :)
 
you can't cheat in photography (unless you nick someone's photo and claim its yours) the auto mode is ok for quick shots but it won't give you the best of your ability. the auto mode is only for guidance when you start out, you will learn much more using shutter priority (tv) and aperture priority (av)
 
Buy a copy of 'Digital Exposure Handbook' by Ross Hoddinott, clearly written and easy to follow reference.

You do not have to be using full manual settings to be a photographer.

Av use for isolating a subject person / portrait / object f2.8 - f4 will blur backround, make subject standout, effect increases with focal length.

Av for getting lots in focus landscapes, scenery large groups f8 - f16 effect increases as focal length decreases.

Dont worry about Tv (shutter priority) just yet, get to grips with one thing at a time, it is less confusing and easier to pick up that way.

Once you are confident you have grasped the effect and results you get altering aperture, then you can start on Tv mode (come back and ask).

Once you understand what each do in isolation, then you can address full M mode.
 
I wouldn't call "Green Box" mode cheating either, but it does severely limit the options available to you and to the camera. I don't have a 20D but I think you'll find that green box limits you as follows....

- ISO value is selected by the camera and is limited to between 100-400;
- You can only shoot in JPEG mode. The raw option is not available;
- You cannot choose which focus point you prefer - the camera makes its choice from all available points. It may quite possibly select the wrong "subject";
- You have no control over whether the flash is used or not;
- You have no creative input in terms of selective focus through depth of field by changing aperture, or motion control through choice of shutter speed;
- I'm not sure which options you get for AF mode - is AI Servo available in GB mode?

The thing with GB mode is that it picks a "nice average aperture" combined with a "nice average shutter speed" and a "nice average ISO (with restrictions)" that will yield a "nice average photo" if you are shooting in "nice average conditions". The main point of a DSLR vs a point and shoot (other than image quality and operational speed) is to allow you to take charge and squeeze the best image you can out of the camera even with the most demanding lighting and subject.

The next step up from GB mode is Program mode, which acts in many ways like GB mode but does allow you to shoot raw, pick your own focus point if you want, choose any available ISO, well beyond 400 if you wish, and you get to choose whether or not the flash fires. I imagine that you also get a wider choice of metering modes enabled.

Av mode is generally the next step up the ladder, allowing you to choose how much of the scene is in focus, so that you can emphasise your subject by throwing the background out of focus if you wish. You can also limit how small the aperture becomes in order to avoid diffraction softening at excessively small apertures.

Tv mode is equally as creative as Av mode but here the creative emphasis is on controlling motion in the scene rather than depth of field. e.g. if you are capturing sport you may want to ensure a fast shutter speed to freeze motion, but not worry too much about the DOF. Alternatively, you may want a long shutter speed in order to blur the motion of water in a stream or waterfall. If shooting prop planes or panning the action in motorsport you will need to be fairly specific shutter speed to achieve the look you want. DOF will be a secondary consideration to motion control.

Manual mode is often considered a more advanced mode but in some ways it is actually the easiest of all to use. I won't go into the details with manual mode but basically you are in charge of shutter speed, aperture, ISO and the flash. You are responsible for metering the scene and setting the exposure correctly for the lighting conditions. The beauty of manual mode is made clear when those lighting conditions remain constant for long periods of time. Basically, once your exposure is set correctly you can then take shots repeatedly, knowing that your eposure will be correct over and over again (until the lighting changes, when you will need to make adjustments). This means that you can change your composition without worrying about the meter reading and can just get on with shooting rather than being concerned about what exposure setting the camera will choose from one shot to the next.
 
Take Ken with a pinch of salt, but his camera user guides are very good.

Agreed..As I mentioned l haven't looked at this Ken's manual for a little while, and looking back some of what he does I wouldnt (like I always shoot in RAW, rather than his recommendation of Med JPG). But generally speaking, from reading this online guide, I got to know and understand the controls on my 20D rather swiftly, which is key to have the confidence to shift to the more manual modes on the camera.

Anyone else accidentally changed the shoot mode to timer whilst attempting to change the ISO when they first started out and then wondered why the shutter didn't go off?! I can't be alone!!
 
When I saw the thread title on this one I have to admit, I was ready for a barage of people being over precious and stating "you're only a real photographer if you use manual on your camera". I've only skip read through the thread but it looks like post after post of sound wisdom.

The two most important things to photography are surely seeing the images you want in the first place and having fun making them. If you're getting that far, then all else is totally secondary.

The thing about green square shooting is that it's not all that far away from Av or Tv anyway. In each case the camera will make a decision about what you are shooting and choose an exposure for you. There does come a point where you may need to get an understanding of how and why it's doing what it's doing and when this wont work for you.

The upside of "going green" is that you can look back on the shots afterwards and analize which have worked out better than they used to in Av and which are worse and see what the camera has set differently. This may help to open up a greater knowledge of what does what to your images
 
what you can do to learn to use manual is meter the shot check what the settings are and in manual try something a stop up or down and learn like that.

I think you get more freedom with manual but exposure is one half and composition and a generally well put together shot is the other. Its all practise :D
 
Can you point us to some examples of pics that you are not happy with? And explain why you aren't happy with them? Or point us at images that you would have liked to produce but dont think that you could.

I've had a quick look through your flickr and I think you've got lots of very good shots.

Could I ask how much processing you do on the images? One thing that I notice is that a number of people here are very good at applying pp to boost their images. A little contrast hike and maybe a bit of saturation or curves can make the world of difference.
I'm thinking specifically of the graffitti stuff, but I think that a little pp might go a long way.
(I won't give suggestions because my pp is crap - worse than carrots in lasagna)
 
ok, here is an example of me getting it wrong.
To me it is 1) not sharp, 2)flat.
You can be as mean as you like about it as it was an image that was tossed out. But it shows how bad I am at the moment.

CRW_658891-1.jpg


And some very sound advice there for me already. Will take a look at that link, it can't hurt to read a bit more, I need al the help I can get
 
ok, so I have just had a look at my setting for that pic and can see a problem right off.
Taken using AV mode,
f/5.6
1.250sec
ISO 1600...................why I don't know, I can only imagine I had been playing with the camera (taken with a EOS 300D) and forgot to change it back. :bang:
 
ok, here is an example of me getting it wrong.
To me it is 1) not sharp, 2)flat.
You can be as mean as you like about it as it was an image that was tossed out. But it shows how bad I am at the moment.

CRW_658891-1.jpg


And some very sound advice there for me already. Will take a look at that link, it can't hurt to read a bit more, I need al the help I can get

The problem here is the light. It looks like it was a lightly overcast day. The shadows are weak and and soft edged. Nothing in the scene is even approaching deep black. The whole image lacks contrast. The sky looks like it is blown out, or at least drab and colourless. The predominant colours in the scene are either grey stone or green grass/leaves. The white balance is not very complementary to the scene, given the overcast light.

Here is the histogram for your file....

MWSnap%202009-02-20%2C%2011_23_04.jpg


Note the peak on the right, indicating the blown out sky, while there is a large gap on the left, indicating that there are no really dark pixels anywhere in the image - no shadows. In this example, I don't think the blown sky is a terrible sin because your exposure has at least allowed you to capture reasonable detail in the mid tones.

As for sharpness, increased contrast enhances the perception of sharpness, by making more strongly defined boundaries between light and dark areas. Since the lighting for this scene is so flat and lifeless it will look somewhat soft, no matter how sharp your lens or how accurate your focus. Really you need better light to cheer up the scene, or some jiggery pokery in editing to enhance it. Here's a quick effort in Lightroom....

20090220_105213_1_LR.jpg


Changes I've made are....

- Warm it up by adjusting the white balance;
- Adjust the black point to darken the shadow areas;
- Increase contrast;
- Increase clarity;
- Increase vibrance.

Whether or not you used GB mode, P, Av, Tv or M would have made no difference to this scene. Although the sky is blown in the background the rest of the scene is fairly well exposed. The two biggest changes you could have made in camera would have been - set the white balance correctly (or creatively!) and bump up the contrast and perhaps the saturation.

The problem with this approach is that you might need to keep fiddling with these things with every change of scene or light. The better approach, in my opinion, would be to shoot RAW instead of JPEG and then you would have the luxury of time to fine tune these things, and more, after you'd taken the shot and without harming IQ in any way. Thus, if you want to take the easy path to higher quality at least shoot in P mode and set your file type to RAW, or RAW+JPEG if you are worried that raw is not for you. The thing is, with many (all) adjustments, it is better to have a raw file to work with than a JPEG.

EDIT : By the way, some might consider it "cheating" to fiddle with the image file after you've taken the shot. Well in my mind there is no difference between tweaking contrast in your editing software rather than adjusting it in camera to begin with . The advantage with shooting in RAW and leaving the editing till later is that you can fine tune such adjustments to perfection, watching the effects both on screen and in your histogram, rather than accepting whatever limited options the camera offers you.

If you shoot RAW, the only things you must try to get right in camera are exposure and focus, and to a lesser degree, composition. Everything else (white balance, levels/curves, sharpening, noise reduction, saturation) can wait till later. Of course, ideally you want good lighting in the first place, but it is not a function of camera settings to overcome poor light quality.
 
There's nothing wrong with the green square mode at all - it enables a lot of people to enjoy the benefits of shooting with a DSLR without having to worry about the techy bits, and most of the time it will produce remarkably good results, freeing you to worry about accurate focusing, composition, and prevailing light. If you don't get those right then you're going to be disappointed regardless of what mode you shoot in.

It's all about light, and as tdodd has demonstrated, dull days produce dull photographs. Spend your time in green square mode concentrating on your hand holding technique, accurate focusing, and learning to assess the light and compose your shots. Often those dull shots can be improved with some editing - that's another hill you have to climb, but do it in your own good time - it's not a race.

There'll come a time when you'll need to move away from that green square to get more creative and have more control, but do it when you feel good and ready.
 
Green Square is also great for shooting in a hurry when you absolutely can't afford to miss the shot.
 
Green Square is also great for shooting in a hurry when you absolutely can't afford to miss the shot.

Very true.

I think I might go back to "green square" for a while. I used to shot this way and was happy with my shots, but most of my problems sseem to have started when I tried the more manual modes.

Might help to take a bit of the pressure I keep putting on mself off.
 
Here is the histogram for your file....

MWSnap%202009-02-20%2C%2011_23_04.jpg


Note the peak on the right, indicating the blown out sky, while there is a large gap on the left, indicating that there are no really dark pixels anywhere in the image - no shadows. In this example, I don't think the blown sky is a terrible sin because your exposure has at least allowed you to capture reasonable detail in the mid tones.

Ok, so forgive a really stupid question (because I never look at the histogram's), but what should an ideal one look like?
 
Ok, so forgive a really stupid question (because I never look at the histogram's), but what should an ideal one look like?

That's not an easy question to answer simply. There are a few articles that should explain the topic quite well. Here are a couple....

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-histograms.shtml

http://ronbigelow.com/articles/histograms-1/histograms-1.htm

If you want to advance with your photography it would be very helpful to understand how to read and interpret a histogram, and get used to reviewing it on the back of your camera. It can also be a helpful guide when editing photos, to adjust the overall tonal distribution within the image.
 
You see I have been using AV mode but feel I am getting no where. Try as I might I just can't see any improvement in my photography taking. I wouldn't mind if I was a "newbie" to cameras and was still learning, but I have owned a digital SLR for a good 6/7 years now, so you would have thought I would have mastered it by now.

I look at the images on here and look at what settings have been used, but try as I might to recreate a similar image they never even come close.

Sometimes I feel more of a wannabe rather than someone who is actually a "photographer".

I have just had a quick look at some of your posted shots and they look pretty decent to me.I suspect that your frustration is one shared by many togs in that we are competent but just not the artistic geniuses we would like to be.The main thing is to shoot and enjoy what you do.I have shot thousands of pics but my best ones only just fill 1xA3 folder and 2xA4 folders.
Keep at it.
Pete.
 
So is being a me being a chicken and sticking to the good old green square cheating?
Or am I in the end going to get a better images by using the manual modes?


Look at it this way ...

Camera manufacturers spend millions of pounds on trying to get that little green square to do the best job possible. On all cameras it is getting better all the time.

You will always get better images by using the manual modes ... But only if you know what you are doing and get it right ... At the right time.
 
It's pretty much all been covered, but just to add my tuppenth. I used P mode when I first got the 450d partly because I wanted to shoot in RAW, but mainly because I couldn't believe how often the camera wanted to pop the flash. It was only after reading understanding exposure, and working my way through the tutorials that I started using the more creative modes (doesn't mean I'm any good at it mind you :D). Use what works for you and produces results you're happy with.
 
as loads of guys have said, and its brilliant advice which i support:
start green square then move to P then AV or TV then M being the limits of you ability.
I routinely shoot fully manual but also routinely shoot AV TV and P (only never fully auto because I loathe the pop up flash and almost always shoot RAW)
 
Just curious, but is it a Canon thing with regard to full auto and RAW? I just checked my Sony and it allows the use of RAW with full auto. :shrug:

So does my Nikon D80, Pentax K10D and my wife's Olympus E410.
 
So it's just those cheapo Canons then! :D :exit:

:D so it would seem. As I never use the auto modes on any of my Canon cameras it had never crossed my mind until you mentioned it. Wonder what Canon's thinking is behind it.
 
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