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  1. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I call this one "The Bay of Bromide Drag"
    Since my last encounter with this I decided to vary my developments. Did one at 6 minutes, one at 11 minutes and the tried and tested stand development. All have come out the same. Because i was told it could be due to aggressive agitation, I used the agitator instead of inverting and it's still coming out the same! I'm getting pretty fed up with it now.

    [​IMG]The Bay of Bromide Drag!!! by Dave Gilbert, on Flickr

    I've developed quite a bit of film now with the stand dev and nothing has gone wrong, i can't understand why it's happening every time now. How can i stop this from happening?
     
  2. joxby

    joxby

    Messages:
    7,727
    Name:
    John
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Are all frames on all films like this
    Why the hell is it so hideously grainy
     
  3. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    All but a couple of frames are like this. And I have no idea why it's so grainy. Almost all my shots are like this. HP5 400 dev in Rodinal.
     
  4. abdoujaparov

    abdoujaparov

    Messages:
    1,745
    Name:
    Keith
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Fresh chemicals?
     
  5. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Yes, bought it only a few months ago. I developed a roll of Rollei with it a few weeks ago and they turned out fine. Everything ever since has looked like this.
     
  6. ChrisH

    ChrisH

    Messages:
    3,511
    Name:
    Chris
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I'd try developing a short length of film in a tray or dish. Unexposed to see if there's a film fault or something stupid happening.
     
  7. joxby

    joxby

    Messages:
    7,727
    Name:
    John
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Well HP5 and rodinal might explain the grain a bit, put the grain to one side
    Even the stand dev is like this ? even though you've no problems with stand dev before
     
  8. Nomad Z

    Nomad Z

    Messages:
    126
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Same camera for all?

    Individual retail rolls, or bulk loaded?
     
  9. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    It's every roll i've used so far. 2 rolls of HP5 and one roll of Rollei Retro 100.

    Yes, John, I used to stand develop every thing until this started. Now i've mixed it up a bit to see if shorter times would stop it. Obviously it hasn't.
     
  10. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Different cameras. and individual rolls.
     
  11. Nomad Z

    Nomad Z

    Messages:
    126
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Same tank? And, where are the sprocket holes in relation to the light/dark streaks?
     
  12. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Yeah, same tank and the sprocket holes are above the light streaks.
     
  13. Nomad Z

    Nomad Z

    Messages:
    126
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Maybe a light leak in the tank? What tank is it?
     
  14. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    It's a Patterson tank, System 4.
     
  15. abdoujaparov

    abdoujaparov

    Messages:
    1,745
    Name:
    Keith
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    How many ml's of chemicals? I got something like this when I was mistakenly putting in 500ml instead of 580ml for a single roll.
     
  16. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I've only ever put 500mls in. I've never used any less. It's always the same.
     
  17. abdoujaparov

    abdoujaparov

    Messages:
    1,745
    Name:
    Keith
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    It should be 290ml for a single 135, 580mm for two 135, and 500ml for a single 120 (I confused matters in my previous post, sorry).

    If you're putting in 500mls for two 135 rolls, that might be the problem. If this is 120, then you can ignore me :)
     
  18. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    It's for one roll of 35mm. I've always done it like that.
     
  19. joxby

    joxby

    Messages:
    7,727
    Name:
    John
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I'm still unclear on the circumstances/sequence of events or where we're at with these 3 rolls.

    You used to stand dev with exactly the same equipment
    It was fine for a while then all of a sudden you get this drag effect
    It was suggested it was bromide drag due to the stand dev, so you started agitation dev
    Same outcome, it was then suggested it might be too much agitation
    Now, it doesn't matter what you do you still get the drag effect

    is this where we're at, because if it is I think we gotta start looking at something else
     
  20. Strappy

    Strappy

    Messages:
    2,934
    Name:
    Dean
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Hmm ...

    [​IMG]
    OCOLOFR1-26
    by Strappy, on Flickr


    That's one of mine from a couple of years ago. That shot was Tri-X stand dev'd in Rodinal (APH-09) but I still had it when I tried a 1:25 solution. It turned out to be me not agitating the tank properly. I documented what happened in my One Camera One Lens One Film project but here's an extract from a Kodak data sheet for Tri-X.

    Small-Tank Processing (8- or 16-ounce tank)
    With small single- or double-reel tanks, drop the loaded
    film reel into the developer and attach the top to the tank.
    Firmly tap the tank on the top of the work surface to
    dislodge any air bubbles. Provide initial agitation of 5 to 7
    inversion cycles in 5 seconds; i.e., extend your arm and
    vigorously twist your wrist 180 degrees.
    Then repeat this agitation procedure at 30-second
    intervals for the rest of the development time.

    Once I changed the way I did my inversions, the banding never happened again. According to some sources I read, it's not bromide drag because that would show as white splotches with trails after them. This is due to gentle inversions causing the dev to flow through the sprocket holes and not replenishing evenly across the film.

    Hope that helps. :)
     
  21. mothdust

    mothdust

    Messages:
    1,075
    Name:
    Charlotte
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Temperature might explain the grain, if not the bromide drag - I found HP5 is very sensitive to colder water.
     
  22. Solo man

    Solo man

    Messages:
    3,470
    Name:
    Lee
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I think it's your agitation method playing a part.
    I have no idea where all the grain comes from but it sure is pretty grainy!.... I'm almost sure that could be down to the temperature and the length of time you are developing..
    Whatever method you use, the first lot of agitations should be inversions, the rest can be with the stick thing.

    I haven't seen your other posts about other issues but what exactly are you doing?.
     
  23. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic

    Messages:
    4,435
    Name:
    Terry
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    1. I would try an absolutely standard and tried and tested technique.
    2. Using 1 to1 diluted D76 or ID11 at 20°c with standard inversion agitation.
    3. It should solve all your problems.
     
  24. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Oh dear, lots of different theories. I was hoping everyone would say the same thing, but that would be too easy wouldn't it. :D

    I've done inversions AND the sticky twiddly thingy on all of the ones with these trails. I've done the tried and tested (which is what i started off doing and never had a problem till now). My temps are more towards 22 - 23 degrees rather than 20, and this had never been a problem.

    Lee, i will try inverting and then using the stick next time. It's the only method i haven't tried yet. It's usually invert OR sticky twiddly thingy.

    Cheers everyone. Your comments are much appreciated.
    :)
     
  25. Solo man

    Solo man

    Messages:
    3,470
    Name:
    Lee
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    If you are stand developing I wouldn't have thought the temperature would matter too much...but if you are doing a 6 minute developing then I would err on the side of caution and bring it down to 20 degrees. I would say that the grain is because of the temperature. I have never done a B&W developing at anything above 21 degrees if anything I keep it between 19 and 21 degrees.
    But yes even when I stand develop I always do inversions first.
     
  26. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    It's not the grain that i mind too much, i mean, i'm using Rodinal, so i expect a certain amount. It's the trails that bother me. It's ruining every roll.
     
  27. Solo man

    Solo man

    Messages:
    3,470
    Name:
    Lee
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Even so, that is a lot of grain :LOL:
     
    StephenM likes this.
  28. Asha

    Asha

    Messages:
    7,034
    Edit My Images:
    No
    If your method of developing, temps, agitation, time etc etc is just as it has been on previous occasions that have not given these messed up results then I would seriously be looking at the chemicals as the culprit regardless of their age / storage
     
  29. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I've used R09 One Shot and Adox Rodinal and got these results from both. I'm going to switch developer, maybe use some Ilford Dev and see what happens.
     
  30. abdoujaparov

    abdoujaparov

    Messages:
    1,745
    Name:
    Keith
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    How about the fixer? Fresh bottle, made up freshly each time?
     
  31. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Actually, for this roll (picture above) it was the second time i used it as this was a test roll on a fixed camera and also wanted to see if the fixer could take 2 developments, but yeah, most of the time i mix fresh batch.

    I've developed another roll of Rollei Retro 100, same process (6 mintues with Rodinal) and i'm waiting to see what it's come out like.
     
  32. Asha

    Asha

    Messages:
    7,034
    Edit My Images:
    No
    If you mix say a litre of fixer solution it will stay good to fix umpteen films.

    There's no need to make a new batch for each film
     
    chunky71 likes this.
  33. Solo man

    Solo man

    Messages:
    3,470
    Name:
    Lee
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I agree with Asha, fixer does well for a lot of rolls, if anything you just need to extend your time a bit for fixing once you've done say half a dozen rolls or so.
     
    chunky71 and Asha like this.
  34. excalibur2

    excalibur2 Loretta

    Messages:
    8,065
    Name:
    Brian
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    ...and you get a clue when the fixer is getting old as the negs are a bit milky..just put them back into the fixer until the milkiness goes.
     
    chunky71 likes this.
  35. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic

    Messages:
    4,435
    Name:
    Terry
    Edit My Images:
    Yes

    The old rule of thumb for fixing, was to give twice the time it took to clear the negs. ( that was far easier to know when developing orthochromatic glass plates under a deep red safe light.)

    But it gives an better idea for how long you need to give, if you open the tank and the negs are still milky. even when the milkiness has just gone, there is still some unresolved and insoluble silver halide in the emulsion, that can cause problems later.

    But this has nothing to do with your problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    Asha likes this.
  36. Asha

    Asha

    Messages:
    7,034
    Edit My Images:
    No
     
    chunky71 likes this.
  37. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I developed a roll of Rollei Retro 100 sometime in between the other failed developments, but only just been able to locate the files on my computer. I knew they had come out ok but only now i've had the chance to properly look at them at full size.
    No sign of any trails at all on any of them! I did this the same as the other 11 minute dev. Done in Rodinal, 22/23 degrees, same tank, same agitation.
    Now i'm really confused.
    [​IMG]RNLI by Dave Gilbert, on Flickr

    I have another roll done and they look good so far, but i haven't scanned them yet.
     
  38. Asha

    Asha

    Messages:
    7,034
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Was the other film fresh or OOD ??

    Previously stored by someone else in a nuclear reactor or something.

    Same chems etc etc for the rollei development in between the stuffed films has to mean the the chemistry is fine therefore I can't see anything else left to blame but b#ll###d film although I have to confess that I'm not sure what would have to happen to unexposed film to obtain the lines like that as it sure aint like leakage .....or is it?....I'm becoming confused now :confused::D
     
  39. chunky71

    chunky71

    Messages:
    132
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Confused? Join the club. Proper head scratcher. Ironically the other 2 rolls were in date HP5. The others were Rollei Retro 100 that i bought off here from Strappy. They were OOD but stored in t'fridge and have been since they arrived at mine too. This roll, was fine, I'm inclined to believe that they all are.
     
  40. Solo man

    Solo man

    Messages:
    3,470
    Name:
    Lee
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I am still convinced that your temperature and time is the issue....
    I've shot Rollei 100 and yours has a good bit more grain than I'd expect ..
    Looking at the Dev chart Rollei 100 in Rodinal (1+50) is 13 minutes @ 20 degrees, just out of interest have you actually tried developing at the correct temp and times stated?.
     

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