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Over 70's to be asked to self-isolate - how will you pursue your hobby?
- Thread starter gramps
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We are certainly not out of the woods yet, whilst the latest published graph shows a steady decline in the daily death rate, the number of new infections doesn't show a similar trend and is stuck around 3,500 new daily infections. So where are they happening, have they determined for certain what the incubation period is, and then we might have a chance of stopping it. All the time people are untested and wandering around willy nilly I see no hope of containing it.
I think London with its population density and packed commuting is absolutely stupid. The biggest risk I face is food shopping every two weeks. The outdoors wherever is far safer as long as two metres is observed. I also think that caravan parks could reopen, as they are effectively individual households. Just disinfect each one before the next family, maintain distance within the park. That at least would offer something with minimal risk.
I think London with its population density and packed commuting is absolutely stupid. The biggest risk I face is food shopping every two weeks. The outdoors wherever is far safer as long as two metres is observed. I also think that caravan parks could reopen, as they are effectively individual households. Just disinfect each one before the next family, maintain distance within the park. That at least would offer something with minimal risk.
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I have been out ... twice to the PO, a short visit on my own.
Once for a short stroll on the city Waterfront with SWMBO on her mobility scooter.
Once on my own for a couple of hours with the camera around the city Waterfront.
Each time it has been with a facemask, carefully observing social-distancing and with copius use of hand sanitiser.
Did I feel safe?
If I'm honest no not really, people in general seem blissfully unaware of the importance of taking care, the slightest distraction and all caution flies out of the window. In all of the above I only saw three other people wearing a facemask and two were foreign visitors to the city.
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Face masks is an interesting point. If the general public were to wear face masks it would need to be mandatory as it would require everyone to wear one to be effective as it’s a collective measure rather than a personal measure when it comes to the public. Medical grade masks could be more effective but it would limit supplies where they are really needed in the NHS/social care. Could you imagine the volume you would need for 66 million people especially when they need changing on a regular basis.
From what I’ve seen face masks and gloves give people a false of security. Whilst on a socially distance dog walk at the weekend I saw one women wear gloves but eating an ice cream cone. She was blissfully unaware that everything she had touched whilst wearing her gloves was being transferred to the ice cream cone she was holding and therefore ingesting as she ate the cone. I also find people wearing masks are more unlikely to socially distance and get closer to you than they need to.
The government need to do some health ads to example the dos and don’t because people dont understand how they can keep themselves safe. It’s possible some measures like masks and gloves can be worse than not using them if not used correctly.
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On facemasks I believe that both I and those near me are safer if I wear one ... I take that view having had to visit hospital during the early stages of the lockdown and everyone was made to wear facemasks, (I was already wearing one).
Seems to me that having a barrier over my mouth & nose is better than not doing so, though unless mandatory I accept that 99% of the public won't wear one, it's not macho or convenient.
Gloves are pointless unless used for a single purpose, e.g. using a petrol pump then discard, copious hand sanitiser when out is my choice.
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The risk is if they are worn too long, are of an inappropriate type they aren’t effective or handled in correctly. Health care people wear them for short periods, replacing them regularly with excellent hygiene/hand washing in between. Your experience in a medical environment backs up my point that if everyone wears one it cuts transmission down from person to person hence protects everyone rather than each person individually. Medical grade would be better than the average person on the street will be wearing. You need a certain specification for it to be classed (something like N95 or higher if I remember correctly- which need specialist training to use safely) as personal protective equipment. There is a dust mask that’s been requested not to be worn in the US because it has a one way valve that opens when you exhale which is when you need it to stop your breath infecting others.
Quote from the Independent:
“The evidence suggests that wearing a face covering does not protect you, but it may protect others if you are infected but have not yet developed symptoms.”
It’s yet another point where a few weeks back the government started to say we should wear a face covering in enclosed public spaces but never followed through with any legislation to make it mandatory. If you ask me it should be mandatory to have a wear face covering in enclosed spaces (shops etc). It doesn’t have to be a face mask, a scarf or snood would be just as effective.
I can see comparisons between countries at a later date will show the UK public’s lack of wearing face coverings as one of the reasons we have suffered more than other countries where face covering is commonplace.
Sadly I think the best way is to stay at home as much as possible, avoid busy places/times to distance yourself from others when you do need to go out and follow good hygiene practices. I’m trying to do all of that and I’m 38. I’ve not seen friends or family since this all started. Even though we could now legally meet up with friends we won’t be doing so as we all have family in the high risk group and we want to keep them as safe as possible. A few months of this is much better than losing a loved one. It’s just sad that not all of my generation think the same and go about doing what they want to (I think many do care but it only needs a small number to cause issues for others or not see what they do as a problem).
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I've been going out all the way through the lockdown - try telling a 15 year old dog she can't go for a walk! I felt safer before the rules got relaxed as people (on the whole) were keeping a safe distance but now they're not making any allowance for distancing at all. Except for the older generations everyone appears to think its all over
We had to have the dog put down last Thursday so no more walks for me so my forays away from the home are being done in the car. I'm still nervous though.
Mr Badger
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I'd agree that it seems some people don't know how to use PPE properly, apparently thinking that gloves and a mask have some sort of magical properties whereby anyone wearing them (no matter how badly) will be immune from infection. Put simply, touch the outside of your gloves or mask with your bare hands and your hands may well have the virus on them, touch anything else with those unwashed hands and you've potentially transferred the virus there too! Gloves don't neutralise the virus, they just prevent it coming into contact with the skin of your hands while wearing them, anything your unsterile gloves touch can spread contamination between surfaces, that includes your shopping, shopping bags, wallet/purse, credit/debit cards, car door handles, key fob, etc.
On balance, PPE can protect you, but only if you use it properly and apply a good deal of common sense and due care when putting it on, wearing it, taking it off, maintaining it and storing it. Mess any of these biosecurity measures up and your PPE may well become an infection vector rather than a barrier.
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Mr Badger
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I'm sorry to hear about your dog, 15 is a good age though, if that's any sort of consolation. Anyway, keep your chin up and keep safe, as Captain Tom says, tomorrow will be a better day.I've been going out all the way through the lockdown - try telling a 15 year old dog she can't go for a walk! I felt safer before the rules got relaxed as people (on the whole) were keeping a safe distance but now they're not making any allowance for distancing at all. Except for the older generations everyone appears to think its all over
We had to have the dog put down last Thursday so no more walks for me so my forays away from the home are being done in the car. I'm still nervous though.
I have been out several times but try to select places that are remote. As @Bristolian says most people kept a safe distance before the rules were relaxed. I've not been nervous about going out but I believe I have been careful as to where I go and what I do when I'm out.
woof woof
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I'm not over 70 but I look after someone who is.
I wasn't really happy going out but our washing machine conked and the local repair shop wasn't answering the phone so I drove up to the high street. This was the first time I'd been out since March. There was traffic and the high street was busy, maybe saturday type of traffic and busy. Surprisingly I was the only person wearing a mask and I got stared at a couple of times People on the street weren't social distancing except when forced to by the shops enforcing a two customer policy and with distancing markings on the floor. When I came out I had to ask a young girl who was swinging on a handrail to move while her mother took no notice. I didn't use the crossings as there was zero distancing and it was like a rugby scrum. Dodging between the stationary traffic seemed a safer option
I then went to the retail park to go to B&Q as Mrs WW was hassling me for some compost and again I was the only mask wearer and again people didn't seem interested in social distancing outside the shops, only inside when forced to by floor markings at the checkout. The checkout at B&Q was the busiest I've ever seen it.
The whole vibe seemed to be a sunny weekend day out one rather than a stay alert one. A lot of blame will be heaped on the government and maybe they have made a mess of it and looking at the figures from the UK compared to other places we do seem to have been among the hardest hit but I do think that at least some of the blame and maybe a large part of it has to be taken by individuals who seem to me to be behaving like idiots.
I was thinking recently about the big evens we've lived through. In my case the biggies are probably Brexit and C19 and both have shaken my belief in the British public.
I wasn't really happy going out but our washing machine conked and the local repair shop wasn't answering the phone so I drove up to the high street. This was the first time I'd been out since March. There was traffic and the high street was busy, maybe saturday type of traffic and busy. Surprisingly I was the only person wearing a mask and I got stared at a couple of times
People on the street weren't social distancing except when forced to by the shops enforcing a two customer policy and with distancing markings on the floor. When I came out I had to ask a young girl who was swinging on a handrail to move while her mother took no notice. I didn't use the crossings as there was zero distancing and it was like a rugby scrum. Dodging between the stationary traffic seemed a safer option I then went to the retail park to go to B&Q as Mrs WW was hassling me for some compost and again I was the only mask wearer and again people didn't seem interested in social distancing outside the shops, only inside when forced to by floor markings at the checkout. The checkout at B&Q was the busiest I've ever seen it.
The whole vibe seemed to be a sunny weekend day out one rather than a stay alert one. A lot of blame will be heaped on the government and maybe they have made a mess of it and looking at the figures from the UK compared to other places we do seem to have been among the hardest hit but I do think that at least some of the blame and maybe a large part of it has to be taken by individuals who seem to me to be behaving like idiots.
I was thinking recently about the big evens we've lived through. In my case the biggies are probably Brexit and C19 and both have shaken my belief in the British public.
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@woof woof I have noticed that there is a lot of thoughtless people around and it does seem worse at the moment. Maybe that is because the sensible ones that are trying to observe the rules are, where possible, trying to stay out of the way of the idiots by going to remote places. There has been a lot of rubbish dumped in parks & on the beach etc.
It has been reported that 17,000 people have been fined for breaches of lockdown and we are told fines are a last resort when people won't comply with instructions of the police, how many did comply?
In the last few weeks I have seen the media mis-report the news, condemn others for breaking the rules yet break them themselves publicly on live video broadcasts and in some cases appear to act as judge, jury and executioner.
While the majority have tried to act responsibly and support their 'fellow man' there are many who only think of themselves or worse still use the current troubles as a means to advance their own situation at the expense of others.
It has been reported that 17,000 people have been fined for breaches of lockdown and we are told fines are a last resort when people won't comply with instructions of the police, how many did comply?
In the last few weeks I have seen the media mis-report the news, condemn others for breaking the rules yet break them themselves publicly on live video broadcasts and in some cases appear to act as judge, jury and executioner.
While the majority have tried to act responsibly and support their 'fellow man' there are many who only think of themselves or worse still use the current troubles as a means to advance their own situation at the expense of others.
woof woof
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This again? If DC influences behavior he must be disproportionately influencing the behaviour of the selfish and the idiots.
DC didn't afaik get involved in rugby scrums at road crossings or fail to stop his children from running amok. Maybe DC is being used as a convenient excuse by the selfish and idiots to justify their own anti social behavior.
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That would be consistent with his most notable political success.
Mr Badger
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As the good book says, Let him who is without sin cast the first stone! I wonder how many newspaper and TV reports there would have been if that maxim was followed to the letter?
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Mr Badger
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Corona Virus deniers, that's what baffles me!Why would people put themselves at greater risk just because of the actions of one individual ... baffles me.
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It's also possible that people are stretching the truth a bit or even outright lying as an opportunity to shift blame or even to bash the government because they want them out because they're conservatives or because of Brexit and as DC is involved with both he's a very convenient excuse and target.
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Yes, I always assume the public are lying rather than upstanding defenders of the truth like Mr Cummings.
woof woof
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Do you? Then you need to take a look at yourself.
You seem determined to pursue this and you're political views are probably well know, I'll play for a very short time and then I'm out.
IMO the DC fiasco became a witch hunt based at least in part on exaggerated witness testimony and very possibly lies. That seems to have been accepted now by at least some parts of the media who had initially repeated questionable reports which are now more widely accepted to be to put it kindly a bit of a joke, misremembered or happened at some time in the past. I think that's actually what one "witness" has since said. Less kindly some reports were a very stupid joke or lies. Being generous DC behaved questionably, if not being generous at least at times he pushed credibility to the limit and behaved like an idiot.
If people copied what he did and held him up for example I could understand that (Officer, I'm driving from London to Middlesbrough to self isolate and that's ok because DC said so...) If what he did was acceptable then it's acceptable for others (although the police did say that his drive north was ok but if they'd seem him they'd have turned him back from Barnard Castle) but to go beyond what he did and use him as a reason for doing other things becomes ever more of a stretch, imo. Unless your point is to excuse or justify your own questionable behavior or to Con or Brexit bash and punish anyone involved in those things. I do think that could be a part of it for some elements of the news/media and for some of the public replying to questionnaires or posting on forums. Plus of course a non story isn't very sexy is it?
I just can't see DC's behaviour being an excuse for crowding at the pelican crossing, standing by chatting and taking no interest in your out of control children, crowding on beeches at beauty spots or any of the rest. I suppose the deciding factors are that I have a functioning brain, empathy for others and no particular political angle to work into this.
And with that I'm done on the subject of using Dominic Cummings as either an excuse or a justification for behaving like an idiot at a time at which IMO we should all be alert to the possibility of a second C19 peak.
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Because not everyone feels they are personally at risk. Do you think everyone sitting on a beach at the weekend thinks they are at risk? If they did they wouldn’t be there!Why would people put themselves at greater risk just because of the actions of one individual ... baffles me.
People are looking for excuses to do what they want and sod what everyone else thinks. DC has given them an excuse because he went on a drive to a beauty spot during lockdown to ‘test his eyes’. 1/ he didn’t need to drive to ‘test his eyesight’, 2/ go somewhere and stop (especially not a beauty spot) 3/ take his family with him (putting them at risk of him driving with poor eyesight). It’s just a laughable excuse to take his wife out on her birthday.
woof woof
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I'm just sat watching the ITN news and they've just said there are 8k new infections a day???? That seems like a state of affairs to be cautious and alert in to me.
Maybe those with functioning brains are behaving well and doing the minimum in public and leaving the silly to look to me like sillies on the streets? Maybe it's as simple as that.
None of the school age children in my family are back at school yet.
woof woof
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Assuming what he said was the truth he didn't exactly drive to and enjoy a beauty spot. He says drove there and stopped as he felt unwell. He and his wife then walked a few yards from the car, had a conversation about how he felt and then returned home. If that is true it's hardly a jolly day out to the beauty spot that is Barnard Castle.
In the past I used to drive a lot, maybe 1500 miles a week or more. I was also a workaholic and responsible for multi million pound contracts and the jobs that went with them. In those days I went to work when I really shouldn't have because I hadn't fully recovered and there were times when I did get up and test how I was and if I was fit to get out and drive here there and everywhere and generally do my job to see if I thought I was prepared to do my job probably the next day. I do therefore get what he said and I do see why he did it, assuming what he said is the truth. He did however leave himself open to attack which is exactly what happened.
Taking the wife and child.... highly questionable to idiotic. IMO. Maybe just the wife in case he felt unable to continue driving.
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I try not to watch the news too much as, at times, there are too many 'experts' with a wide range of views it's hard to know who to believe and then so of the the presenters are like 'a dog with a bone' and won't accept an answer until it has been repeated 3-6 times or they get the answer there personally want.
DC hasn't given me an excuse to bend or break the rules. If I was in his EXACT circumstances I would have done most of what he did but with the exception of going back to work when he did. I would expect he has enough money to stay of work for a few weeks/months and for me any reason (including the day ending in the letter y) is enough for me to stay out of London. In the past I to was a workaholic but over the last 15 years I have got over that and realised that the method to find out how dispensable you are is 100% correct. It's a test that I believe only God, Jesus & Moses could score in.
As for him driving with poor eyesight, He did say he had been medically cleared to return to work knowing he would be driving 280 miles or so, does anyone believe that he was given that advice while his eyesight was bad? A mile round the local streets is not enough of a test to check that you are physically up to a 280 mile drive but a 30 mile each way trip could be.
I agree that taking the wife and child.... highly questionable to idiotic especially when his reason to travel to Durham was having family near an empty property where they could stay safe and be looked after.
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I think your irony detector needs recalibrating there, Alan.
We can of course choose to disbelieve what members of the public are saying in polling, while swallowing Mr Cummings's account whole. It takes a little effort, and the ability to use doublethink, but it is at any rate possible. We simply need to believe that his wife's illness was not serious enough to suspect COVID-19, which should have prevented Cummings going back to work that day, while at the same time serious enough to drive hundreds of miles to Durham. We need to accept his reasoning for taking his whole family along on an eye test drive on his wife's birthday. Perhaps his wife was indeed there to take over in case he felt unable to continue driving, though it's best to avoid asking ourselves why she didn't simply drive the whole family back to London. We should assume his and his wife's articles in the Spectator, which a cynical observer might suggest were deliberately designed to give the impression they had never left London, were doing a service to their readers by not burdening them with unneccessary details. We should also believe that the attitude of 'If that means some pensioners die, too bad' attributed to Cummings before the U-turn on the lockdown in March is an unfair slur, and accept his claim at the Rose Garden press conference that he has always been concerned about the dangers of coronaviruses, just as his blog suggests. That the only evidence for this seems to be text inserted into a year old posting on the day he returned to London is a mere detail, which must surely have some perfectly innocent explanation.
But all of this is incidental to the main issue. It's not that Cummings broke the rules and refused to apologise, it's that a Government that has already made some terrible mistakes in handling the crisis (including decisions Cummings himself must have been involved in) were prepared to dilute a vital public health message to protect him. I really hope that what looks like a premature relaxation of restrictions was not driven by the same motives.
woof woof
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I had a serious back injury when I was 21 and for years I suffered with either back or occasionally neck pain which made getting to work impossible even if once I was there I could function, answer the phones etc. In those days when I had an episode a big test for me was could I get in the car and use the controls and mirrors etc without suffering too much pain. And despite what staff thought of me they would admit I was pretty crucial
I do understand the workaholic or even maybe just the self important feeling the need to get back to work and I do even understand the practice run, at least to an extent but I doubt very much I'd have done it with a child in the back.
woof woof
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You regularly and deliberately misrepresent what others post for your own reasons so I just fired one back at you. Sorry if being on the receiving end goes beyond your expectations.
And to be clear. the witness reports were false in one instance (a joke? Really? How funny...) and the police say he did nothing wrong in driving to Durham. If you were to accept that, and I doubt you will, all we're left with is the drive to test his fitness and on that the police said something to the effect that it was a minor breach and they'd probably have sent him home if they'd seen him. I said all we're left with but I didn't include political bias and a loathing for the arrogant unpleasant man and/or all he stands for or using DC as an excuse for our/your own questionable actions.
Anybody using DC as an example in similar circumstances has my blessings but anyone playing games because they just want to do their own thing with impunity or because don't like the man or his politics does IMO need to take a look at themselves.
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And despite what staff thought of me they would admit I was pretty crucial
To be honest I wasn't an essential employee, (like with a lot of employers) the place would have ran just as well (or even better lol) without me. I know it ran better every time the boss went on holiday. I wasn't aiming my 'indispensable man' comment at you, Just the the bosses I've had are the type that believe that no matter how good you are at your job, if you left it wouldn't take them long to replace you and you would be a distant memory within days/weeks.
I was a workaholic in as much as I NEEDED to work not that I was needed to. I was so bad that I felt guilty being on holiday. I would go out and help a friend on his job on my day off (for free) for many years.
woof woof
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I remember a guy I used to work with telling me a story from his army days. When the "boss" went on leave he was always amazed how well his stand in dealt with all the admin. His in and out trays were always clear when he got back. Wonderful! Congrats to the stand in
I don't think he ever learned the truth... all the stand in did was bin everything
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Citation needed (check for irony. sarcasm or satire first).
You're missing the point again, which is what the Cummings affair does to the public health message. The guidelines, it seems, never meant what we thought they meant, and could be flouted by anyone who claimed to believe the childcare 'loophole' (a clause Cummings must have known perfectly well was inserted to protect children from abusive relationships) applied to them, at least if they were in a position of power. This came as news to many people who had suffered a great deal to preserve the lockdown, on all sides of the political spectrum. Some of the fiercest criticism came from ardent Brexiters. The Durham police were only commenting on whether Cummings may have committed an offence, not on whether he'd flagrantly breached the Government's unequivocal guidance to stay at home (which had moral rather than legal force at the time, since it was not backed by legislation). If I had been in his position, I would not have assumed I was entitled to drive hundreds of miles to a different region of the country with a probably infected and infectious family.
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well said
woof woof
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I see your point and I'm sure you'll express it as often as you can and I'm also sure you'll never sway and these are a couple of reasons why I'm reluctant to get into this with you, you have no objectivity at all.
So, I'm out.
woof woof
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And I'm sorry for my part in it. I may have to revisit the ignore option.
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I might make a comment here about objectivity, pots, and kettles, but agree it would be better to end the discussion at this point.
Instead, returning to something not too far away from the original subject of the thread, I was recently looking at Magnum's collection of featured photo essays:
https://pro.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=MAGO31_3
They have a very nice album of photos taken at home or in quarantine, showing what creative photographers can do even with the limitations of a lockdown:
https://pro.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K1HRGOJXUT3
Instead, returning to something not too far away from the original subject of the thread, I was recently looking at Magnum's collection of featured photo essays:
https://pro.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=MAGO31_3
They have a very nice album of photos taken at home or in quarantine, showing what creative photographers can do even with the limitations of a lockdown:
https://pro.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K1HRGOJXUT3
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I just want to be the 1,000th reply to this post! 
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You weren't though....I just want to be the 1,000th reply to this post!
Marc
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