Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX8 - vs. Canon 7D

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TGphoto

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Tom
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Hi,

As the title states.

Currently have the Canon 7D with a 10-18mm, 18-35mm, 50mm, 55-250mm lens portfolio. I am considering something different, newer and smaller. I am not getting enough use out of it.

Interested in the Panasonic GX8. Would get the 12-60mm lens but would like a telephoto also.

Questions:
Good move?
What are the lens options like?
Any benefits/drawbacks?

Anything else? Would be great to hear from GX8 owners!

(primarily do landscapes)

Cheers,

Tom
 
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Firstly I've not owned or even shot with a GX8 but secondly I wouldn't bother as this is one of the models that can induce shutter shock when used with a susceptible lens. One partial remedy is to use the electronic shutter but that can bring its own issues such as rolling shutter which never bothered me and banding under flickering lighting which has bothered me with my similarly afflicted GX7. A total fix is to only use lenses which aren't affected by shutter shock, but selecting them may need a lot of research.

Personally I'd avoid the whole issue by buying either a GX80 or G80 as these have the new shutter mechanism and a few other goodies besides. I have a GX80 and it's a very nice camera.
 
I've owned a 7D and currently have a GX8. They are very different cameras. If you have the 7D for its continuous AF prowess, then forget the GX8. It is truly awful in this regard. However, in every other aspect, the GX8 is by far the better camera IMHO.

As for shutter shock, I'm not going to say it doesn't exist as it clearly does, however despite owning some the 'susceptible' lenses, I have yet to see the affect in nearly 2 years of use.

However, in your shoes I would most likely look very closely at the G80. Superb camera.

Simon.
 
but Simon you shoot mostly electronic shutter so you wont.
 
woof woof said:
but Simon you shoot mostly electronic shutter so you wont.
Click to expand...

For family days out yes, but for all my landscape stuff and all my motorsport stuff I most certainly do not and would regularly be in the shutter speed range most often quoted as giving problems.
 
Thanks for your input. Is the shutter shock really that much of an issue?All reviews say there are ways round it/its not much of an issue.

Seriously considering it as I can get the GX8 with 12-60mm lens for £650


Could probs sell my other kit for:

7D - £350
18-35MM - £400-500
10-18MM-£100
55-250MM- £100
50MM - £50

So around £1050 - giving me a few some left over for maybe the 12-35mm
 
Tom Green said:
Thanks for your input. Is the shutter shock really that much of an issue?All reviews say there are ways round it/its not much of an issue.

Seriously considering it as I can get the GX8 with 12-60mm lens for £650


Could probs sell my other kit for:

7D - £350
18-35MM - £400-500
10-18MM-£100
55-250MM- £100
50MM - £50

So around £1050 - giving me a few some left over for maybe the 12-35mm
Click to expand...

I can only speak from two years actual experience of using the camera Tom, and it has never been a problem for me. There's enough chatter out there on the internet for me to be sure it is a real problem, but it isn't anything that I have ever seen.

Simon.
 
With the 100 cashback on the G80 kit... Think I'd tend to agree with the others. ... or the GX80 if you fancy a rangefinder style body.

Not tried the GX8 but the 80s are nice... Just be aware of the pros and cons re DSLR vs u43.
 
acs said:
With the 100 cashback on the G80 kit... Think I'd tend to agree with the others. ... or the GX80 if you fancy a rangefinder style body.

Not tried the GX8 but the 80s are nice... Just be aware of the pros and cons re DSLR vs u43.
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Yeah I have been looking into this. Other than lens range and compatability, I am not really convinced that there are many pros to keeping a DSLR instead. What would you say the pros/cons of both are?
 
Tom Green said:
What would you say the pros/cons of both are?
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:) Do you want me to get flamed? :D

I bought into u43 thinking it'd just be a nice alternative to a compact and that I might just get a small body and maybe one or two lenses. Like many I soon ended up with a full system... multiple bodies and a pretty comprehensive set of pro and consumer lenses, but I wouldn't give up my DSLRs.

I think u43 hits a sweet spot in terms of size/ quality, and though I'm sure many will disagree, I think anything bigger and you might as well go for a DSLR. Although you can play some games, everything scales with sensor size. (Though, when used prices drop, I would like an A7 for some Leica lenses.) I can carry multiple u43 bodies and a full set of lenses covering ultra wide to long tele, with macro and fast primes in a small shoulder bag -- if I tried that with my DSLR kit I'd need a wheelbarrow. Of course, differences in pixel density, glass, etc. cloud the picture (sorry), and with a DSLR I tend to pick lenses more carefully when I'm heading out, but still...

For static subjects in good light, u43 with contrast AF and pro glass is hard to beat, but I suspect that most current DSLRs would beat u43 in low-light performance, arguably DoF control, and AF tracking -- possibly excepting some lenses on an M1. Having said that, there are some impressive BIF photos posted here, so it can be done.

One other thing to consider... u43 has a really good range of lenses but, I assume due to less competition from third party suppliers than for the 'big two', lenses tend to be more expensive.
 
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srhmoto said:
For family days out yes, but for all my landscape stuff and all my motorsport stuff I most certainly do not and would regularly be in the shutter speed range most often quoted as giving problems.
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Then the next question is what lenses did you use?

In the Panny thread was accused of trashing MFT and putting people off but that's not what I'm doing at all. I've been a user of MFT pretty much since day one and I like it but there's no point pretending this is a non issue and it is IMO better to inform anyone interested in the system of the issue so that they can make an informed decision.

Tom Green said:
Thanks for your input. Is the shutter shock really that much of an issue?All reviews say there are ways round it/its not much of an issue.
Click to expand...

It's a problem if you have the camera and lens combination to induce it and if you use it in the affected shutter speed range. I think the susceptible lenses are mostly zooms, I haven't seen shutter shock when using any MFT prime lenses (Panny 20mm f1.7, 14mm f2.5, Oly 17, 25 and 45mm f1.8's) or the Panny 12-35mm f2.8 but I did surprisingly see it when using an old Minolta Rokkor 50mm f1.2.

Be aware there's no cost free way around this. The electronic shutter isn't a cost free fix if you're likely to run into and care about rolling shutter or banding under artificial lighting and it isn't always possible to stay out of the affected shutter speed range when using the mechanical shutter. As there doesn't seem to be any definitive list of what lenses are affected I think the best thing to do is to do a lot of research on any body and lens combination you're interested in or avoid the issue by buying a camera with the new shutter mechanism. I've seen some very good deals on the RF style GX80 which I have and I'm sure that the mini DSLR style G80 is an excellent camera, I had a G7 which was the previous model and that was excellent apart from the shutter shock issue. I think that there are some excellent MFT lenses, the Oly primes I have all seem excellent as does the Panny 12-35mm f2.8 and the tiny prime sized 14-42mm mega ois is a wonderfully compact standard range zoom which is sharp from wide open. It suffered shutter shock on my G7 but on my G1 (now sold) and GX80 it's excellent.
 
acs said:
:) Do you want me to get flamed? :D

I bought into u43 thinking it'd just be a nice alternative to a compact and that I might just get a small body and maybe one or two lenses. Like many I soon ended up with a full system... multiple bodies and a pretty comprehensive set of pro and consumer lenses, but I wouldn't give up my DSLRs.

I think u43 hits a sweet spot in terms of size/ quality, and though I'm sure many will disagree, I think anything bigger and you might as well go for a DSLR. Although you can play some games, everything scales with sensor size. (Though, when used prices drop, I would like an A7 for some Leica lenses.) I can carry multiple u43 bodies and a full set of lenses covering ultra wide to long tele, with macro and fast primes in a small shoulder bag -- if I tried that with my DSLR kit I'd need a wheelbarrow. Of course, differences in pixel density, glass, etc. cloud the picture (sorry), and with a DSLR I tend to pick lenses more carefully when I'm heading out, but still...

For static subjects in good light, u43 with contrast AF and pro glass is hard to beat, but I suspect that most current DSLRs would beat u43 in low-light performance, arguably DoF control, and AF tracking -- possibly excepting some lenses on an M1. Having said that, there are some impressive BIF photos posted here, so it can be done.

One other thing to consider... u43 has a really good range of lenses but, I assume due to less competition from third party suppliers than for the 'big two', lenses tend to be more expensive.
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Interesting because I'm thinking of doing exactly that. Getting the GX8 with 12-60mm then maybe a prime and a telephoto. I agree with you on that.

My main issue with the 7D is that its big and heavy. I like city breaks etc and find the 7D spends more time in my bag than in my hands. I think I would use the gx8 a lot more and wouldn't mind trying my hand at some video stuff as well.

The only real place I would miss the AF on my 7D I think is airshows, but they only come around a couple of times a year.

I am also considering the Sony A7 that is £899 with a lens at the moment, what are your thoughts?
 
woof woof said:
Then the next question is what lenses did you use?

In the Panny thread was accused of trashing MFT and putting people off but that's not what I'm doing at all. I've been a user of MFT pretty much since day one and I like it but there's no point pretending this is a non issue and it is IMO better to inform anyone interested in the system of the issue so that they can make an informed decision.



It's a problem if you have the camera and lens combination to induce it and if you use it in the affected shutter speed range. I think the susceptible lenses are mostly zooms, I haven't seen shutter shock when using any MFT prime lenses (Panny 20mm f1.7, 14mm f2.5, Oly 17, 25 and 45mm f1.8's) or the Panny 12-35mm f2.8 but I did surprisingly see it when using an old Minolta Rokkor 50mm f1.2.

Be aware there's no cost free way around this. The electronic shutter isn't a cost free fix if you're likely to run into and care about rolling shutter or banding under artificial lighting and it isn't always possible to stay out of the affected shutter speed range when using the mechanical shutter. As there doesn't seem to be any definitive list of what lenses are affected I think the best thing to do is to do a lot of research on any body and lens combination you're interested in or avoid the issue by buying a camera with the new shutter mechanism. I've seen some very good deals on the RF style GX80 which I have and I'm sure that the mini DSLR style G80 is an excellent camera, I had a G7 which was the previous model and that was excellent apart from the shutter shock issue. I think that there are some excellent MFT lenses, the Oly primes I have all seem excellent as does the Panny 12-35mm f2.8 and the tiny prime sized 14-42mm mega ois is a wonderfully compact standard range zoom which is sharp from wide open. It suffered shutter shock on my G7 but on my G1 (now sold) and GX80 it's excellent.
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Interesting input. Thank you. Not sure I would go for the GX80 over the GX8, the current GX8 package looks better to me.
 
srhmoto said:
I can only speak from two years actual experience of using the camera Tom, and it has never been a problem for me. There's enough chatter out there on the internet for me to be sure it is a real problem, but it isn't anything that I have ever seen.

Simon.
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Thanks Simon. I agree.

What's the low light performance like?
 
I have a first generation A7 and it's the best camera I've ever had, the image quality is simply wonderful and the files are gorgeous, being able to see the exposure and the depth of field is a revelation as is being able to focus anywhere in the frame and the in view focus and exposure aids are fantastic... if want to be able to focus manually at f1.2 it's possible with peaking and the magnified view :D The camera is tiny and when coupled with a compact lens it's the size SLR's used to be before they became big fat bloated DSLR's. Actually with a compact lens the A7 is the size of a MFT mini SLR style camera like the G7/G8 and it fits in the same small bag my GX7 or GX80 fit in. It's not all good news though as the camera isn't quick, MFT cameras leave it for dead if you're looking for a lightening responsive camera.

If you go for an A7 and the 28-70mm kit lens it's a good combination and the kit lens is IMO very good. I mostly use the excellent Sony 35mm f2.8 and old manual primes.

I use my A7 when I want the best quality I can get and when I want to use old manual lenses and I use MFT when I want the smallest and most discrete camera, when I want to shoot silently and when I want a faster camera than the A7.
 
As several others have suggested, I think you may be better off with the G80. You wouldn't have to worry about shutter shock (though I've not seen the problem on my G7 either), it has better in-body stabilisation, and the form factor is closer to what you're used to. I'd only move to a rangefinder style camera if you know you'll like it (I had a GX7, but never really enjoyed the form factor). I moved from a Canon system with L lenses to micro 4/3 a while ago - I ran both systems for a while, before realising I had no reason to keep the Canon kit. The only down sides are the lack of 3rd party lenses and, to a certain extent, shooting moving subjects.
On the latter point, I've used this kit for motorsports and, with the exception of the Mk1 version of the 100-300mm, it doesn't do too badly. With a 35-100mm f/2.8 it was actually very good - compared to my old Canon 40D I'd say that it focused more accurately and tracked better, but the shutter blackout was just a little worse. (I'm planning to get the Mk2 version of the 100-300mm, as it's supposed to be much better for this kind of use).
 
I think the main difference will be handling and AF system.

I don't know what your lenses are like with the 7D but my one has near instant autofocusing at any range with any AF point with quality f2.8 lenses.

It is a pleasure to use the 8 way joystick and large grip to change AF points.

The gx8 I have never used but looking at the design and buttons you can see its going to be a whole different experience to use.

However I do have a mirrorless and the lightweight and smaller size is a breath of fresh air.

Plus they are more discrete, when people see a dslr they kinda stare at you with a concerned look.
 
GTG said:
I don't know what your lenses are like with the 7D but my one has near instant autofocusing at any range with any AF point with quality f2.8 lenses.
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Focusing has to be viewed as a combination of body and lens, put a slow focusing lens on a fast body and you'll hamper the speed of the body. The newer MFT bodies I've had, G7, GX7 and GX80, have near instantaneous focusing with even reasonably fast focusing lenses. There's no need to wait for the kit to lock on, all I need to do is put the focus point over the subject and press the button and it focuses so fast that it locks on before the picture is taken.
 
My advice on the GX8 (or any m4/3 or mirrorless for that matter) would be to try one for an extended period if at all possible before parting with your DSLR gear.

I have a GX8 and it's a fun camera, but I find it frustrating to use for what I do.

Shutter shock is one of those internet discoveries that there's every chance you'll never notice. Low light performance depends on how low you consider low.

Advantages: small, light, stable and silent.

Disadvantages: everything else. :D
 
I used my GX8 as my only camera for last years holiday to Croatia, with the most talked about lens re shutter shock - the Panasonic 14-140 II

I took over 800 photos, all with mechanical shutter, and didn't see the effects of S/S in any one of them. As others have said, I'm sure it does exist, but maybe later cameras are less susceptible? Just my own experience.
 
Tough decision to make here then!

Not interested in the G80 to be honest. Looking at the GX80 but not sure which is a better deal.

GX80 for £449 with 12-32mm lens

GX8 for £649 with 12-60mm lens (Would possibly sell the 12-60 and get the 12-35mm)

Sony A7 for £899 with 28-70mm lens

All in all I am mainly keen on landscape photography with a bit of wildlife and airshow here and there. Would like decent (better than 7D) low light performance. IQ is a big issue for me.

Which do you suggest?

Any other options?
 
In a dxomark high ISO test

the A7 scores nearly 2449

the 7D 854

the GX8 806

People dispute the accuracy or credibility of that test but I have
always found low scoring dslr`s have poor noise performance
and high scoring ones are very good
 
Tom Green said:
Tough decision to make here then!

Not interested in the G80 to be honest. Looking at the GX80 but not sure which is a better deal.

GX80 for £449 with 12-32mm lens

GX8 for £649 with 12-60mm lens (Would possibly sell the 12-60 and get the 12-35mm)

Sony A7 for £899 with 28-70mm lens

All in all I am mainly keen on landscape photography with a bit of wildlife and airshow here and there. Would like decent (better than 7D) low light performance. IQ is a big issue for me.

Which do you suggest?

Any other options?
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I sold all of my FF kit after owning an Oly EM10 for 6 months.

In extreme conditions FF will always be better in terms of absolute IQ and noise performance but in all other instances the differences are not as big as you might think - I was looking at 200% on a 5k iMac to see differences and they weren't obvious, at which point I thought why bother with FF...

But still, if IQ is your primes concern then FF is the way to go, if it isn't then the other systems are very attractive.
 
Nawty said:
I sold all of my FF kit after owning an Oly EM10 for 6 months.

In extreme conditions FF will always be better in terms of absolute IQ and noise performance but in all other instances the differences are not as big as you might think - I was looking at 200% on a 5k iMac to see differences and they weren't obvious, at which point I thought why bother with FF...

But still, if IQ is your primes concern then FF is the way to go, if it isn't then the other systems are very attractive.
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It is the main concern but not only concern. As long as the sacrifice is minimal.
 
Tom Green said:
It is the main concern but not only concern. As long as the sacrifice is minimal.
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Well no camera is perfect, they are all a bunch of compromises and only you can decide which set of compromises is right for you.

I decided, after having both, that the added bulk of body and lenses wasn't worth the extra IQ FF gave me, I know others have been on the same journey and kept with FF.
 
Nawty said:
Well no camera is perfect, they are all a bunch of compromises and only you can decide which set of compromises is right for you.

I decided, after having both, that the added bulk of body and lenses wasn't worth the extra IQ FF gave me, I know others have been on the same journey and kept with FF.
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Very true.
 
Tom Green said:
Thanks Simon. I agree.

What's the low light performance like?
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For what I shoot, it's fine but I should say very little of my shooting is in low light.

Everything is a compromise, and if you want the very best low light performance and / or IQ, there are better options. However, if you want a camera that produces superb results in pretty much all every day use and is just a joy to use, you can't go far wrong with the GX8.
 
srhmoto said:
For what I shoot, it's fine but I should say very little of my shooting is in low light.

Everything is a compromise, and if you want the very best low light performance and / or IQ, there are better options. However, if you want a camera that produces superb results in pretty much all every day use and is just a joy to use, you can't go far wrong with the GX8.
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Thanks for that, very helpful.
 
Just a few thoughts, since I don't own either a Canon or Panasonic, but do own Nikon Fx and Olympus E-M10 (M43).

When we first bought the E-M10 I thought the supplied lens was lousy, because most of the time images were soft. We then acquired a second lens, sold as being a good, sharp copy, and again most - not all - images were soft. When I switched to electronic shutter we suddenly had sharp images at all shutter speeds. The effect is real, but some bodies seem more susceptible than others.

Shooting bright scenes in good light, it can be hard to tell the difference between images from the Oly and the D610. If conditions become dull requiring higher ISO or it is necessary to recover shadow detail then the M43 files can't compete *however* they may still bet better than your 7D.

If you require very shallow depth of field then that may not be possible with M43, even with an f2.8 'pro' zoom.

If lightness is important then a panasonic work out well for you, but I think the A7 would potentially produce better quality images at the cost of higher priced lenses.
 
Ed Sutton said:
My advice on the GX8 (or any m4/3 or mirrorless for that matter) would be to try one for an extended period if at all possible before parting with your DSLR gear.

I have a GX8 and it's a fun camera, but I find it frustrating to use for what I do.

Shutter shock is one of those internet discoveries that there's every chance you'll never notice. Low light performance depends on how low you consider low.

Advantages: small, light, stable and silent.

Disadvantages: everything else. :D
Click to expand...

No it isn't. It's a very real problem that occurs if you have the body and lens to display it and shoot at affected shutter speeds.

For years I shot with MFT and I never saw it once until I bought a G7 with the 14-42mm mega ois and I spotted shutter shock the first time I used the combo for real world shooting. To be honest I didn't initially recognise what was going on and at first I just put the disappointing results down to the lens being a piece of junk until it performed very well on my G1 and I started to look at what was going wrong.

This is a real issue otherwise reputable reviewers wouldn't have highlighted the issue and Panasonic wouldn't have spent the time and money redesigning the shutters. It may be intermittent and it may not occur with every copy of body and lens but it is an issue. People spend a lot of money on cameras and lenses and I don't think it should be swept under the carpet.
 
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Tom Green said:
I am also considering the Sony A7 that is £899 with a lens at the moment, what are your thoughts?
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As I said, I quite fancy an A7 when used prices come down so I can use some Leica lenses; however, while they seem nice cameras and the Zeiss branded lenses seem good, personally I don't see enough of a size advantage over a DSLR. Sure the bodies are thinner, but like-for-like, the lenses should be about the same size -- FF is FF, though the Sony lenses do seem relatively compact. Is the difference big enough? ...guess everyone will have their own view on that.

One other thing to question is what you carry... I happen to have two shoulder bags beside me, which are the same size and while I'm sure there's a difference they feel about the same weight -- one has a Nikon FF with a 24-120/4 and a couple of primes, the other a GX80 with a 12-40/2.8 and a 40-150/2.8. Now the FF kit goes wider, and the u43 kit longer so they're clearly not equivalent but the point is that given a space I'll tend to fill it. Thinking about what and how you carry things might be something else to consider. Also, a heavy body and lens on a sling strap feels a lot lighter than something hanging round your neck; distributing the weight of cameras and lenses also helps a lot. ...but of course, for many of us, buying new kit is always the solution ;)
 
woof woof said:
No it isn't. It's a very real problem that occurs if you have the body and lens to display it and shoot at affected shutter speeds.

For years I shot with MFT and I never saw it once until I bought a G7 with the 14-42mm mega ois and I spotted shutter shock the first time I used the combo for real world shooting. To be honest I didn't initially recognise what was going on and at first I just put the disappointing results down to the lens being a piece of junk until it performed very well on my G1 and I started to look at what was going wrong.

This is a real issue otherwise reputable reviewers wouldn't have highlighted the issue and Panasonic wouldn't have spent the time and money redesigning the shutters. It may be intermittent and it may not occur with every copy of body and lens but it is an issue. People spend a lot of money on cameras and lenses and I don't think it should be swept under the carpet.
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:sleep:
 
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