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  1. Forkbeard

    Forkbeard

    Messages:
    184
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I'm just delving into Rawtherapee and was wondering if there is a right order to editing? I've been doing exposure/shadows/highlights first, then noise reduction but I don't know if this is right. It seems logical...I think..!
     
    Dave70D likes this.
  2. Kodiak Qc

    Kodiak Qc

    Messages:
    14,793
    Name:
    French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Oh yes there is…
    and it makes for great debates and differences.

    What I practice and teach is
    1. read all the recorded data properly
    2. convert from mineral capture to organic rendition
    3. apply artistic intent
    And in the end, no saturation, vibrance nor sharpening
    is ever needed in the first two steps if the file was well
    exposed and correctly focused.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
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  3. Nawty

    Nawty

    Messages:
    5,695
    Name:
    Ned
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Or, to put it another way, it doesn't really matter as raw converters tend to be non-distructive (I know nothing of rawtherapee though) so in the same way that in maths it doesn't matter what order you multiply things it doesn't technically matter which way around you process a raw.

    Except it does, as multiplications of adjustments can really quickly over-do and screw an image up and depending on what order you do them in it is easy to get the 'maths' wrong. Good news is that as it is non-destructive it doesn't matter as you can go back and re-do it.
     
  4. Kodiak Qc

    Kodiak Qc

    Messages:
    14,793
    Name:
    French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Right.
    Right again!

    So better learn to do it right than having to redo
    and lose time in front of your screen instead of
    being behind your
    camera.
     
  5. droj

    droj

    Messages:
    2,184
    Name:
    Rog
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Haven't used Rawtherapee so what I'm about to say is generic - so yes to exposure (usually left as is), contrast (usually increased but not always), histogram end-points, shadows & highlights & all that sort of stuff. As Daniel says, for most purposes forget about saturation and the rest. I rarely apply noise reduction - are you taking shots of black cats in coal cellars? I never sharpen except for particular output requirements at the finished image size. You don't have to use every tool in the box just because it's there. Some tools are just there for emergencies (or those with odd tastes). Colour temperature / tint sometimes need a tweak.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  6. GlennW

    GlennW

    Messages:
    236
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Do not listen to this bit of advice - it is quite frankly just wrong.
     
  7. gramps

    gramps

    Messages:
    29,120
    Edit My Images:
    No
    If I intend using noise reduction I would always use it first, my reasoning being that any noise present would be enhanced by any other processing, something I don't want. :)
     
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  8. Dave70D

    Dave70D

    Messages:
    4,024
    Name:
    FujiDaveXX
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Rawtherapee is a very good and quite powerful editing software, I use to use it and had fun too. When I use to use it, I would get all the colours and white balance how I wanted, then if it needed to be sharpened then I`d sharpen it a bit. At the end of the day, You took the photo and it is You doing the editing, what I mean by that is, if you get it all just how you like or want then that is all that counts, hope this helps you :)
     
  9. petersmart

    petersmart

    Messages:
    4,225
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I don't have RawTherapee or any of the other RAW editing tools apart from DPP.

    My workflow such as it is is this;

    1 - check out all my images with Fast Picture Viewer and put the keepers in my "Selected" folder
    2 - In DPP convert all those ones to 16 Bit TIFF files in my TIFF folder
    3 - Batch process then in Neat Image Standalone noise reduction in my "De-Noised" folder
    4 - Edit some in EasyHDR Pro then pass them to: my "Edited" folder as 16 bit TIFF files
    5 - Others edit using Serif PhotoPlus X2 and usually save to the "Edited" folder
    6 - Batch process them using Easy Thumbnails and convert to JPEG.

    So all the way through I have used uncompressed TIFF files and only finally get the JPEG files in the final sequence

    I also use EasyHDR Pro beacuse it acts as a kind of variable layers with a great many adjustments although it does emphasise the noise - another reason for using a NR program.

    My way of working may upset the purists but at the end of the day I am used to it and it makes my (photographic) life a lot easier.
     
  10. Kodiak Qc

    Kodiak Qc

    Messages:
    14,793
    Name:
    French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
    Edit My Images:
    Yes

    Right!

    Why don't you make suggestions if
    you know something I must ignore?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  11. Dave70D

    Dave70D

    Messages:
    4,024
    Name:
    FujiDaveXX
    Edit My Images:
    No
  12. Oliver Pohlmann

    Oliver Pohlmann

    Messages:
    284
    Name:
    Oliver
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Your method is fine. You're correct in actioning noise reduction and sharpening after you've adjusted the exposure and shadows. Only once you've raised the shadows will you be able to see the noise you need to reduce.

    No idea what any of that means.


    Totally incorrect.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    TG. and GlennW like this.
  13. Gaz J

    Gaz J

    Messages:
    2,861
    Name:
    Gary
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I try and be as efficient as possible so

    Lens correction, luminance, sharpening, radius, detail then sync across all the images taken with that lens at that ISO.

    Then

    Check histogram and tweak if required, white point, black point, highlights, shadows, clarity, masking on each image that I'm keeping.
     
  14. Eloise

    Eloise

    Messages:
    731
    Name:
    Eloise
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I always thought Lens correction last as it’s a (processor) intensive process so you don’t really want the computer having to do it time and time again as you process the image in other ways.
     
  15. Gaz J

    Gaz J

    Messages:
    2,861
    Name:
    Gary
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Don't know. I know that brushing and spot removal is but I hardly ever do that in LR.

    Adobe's Website have a bit regarding the best way to develop to improve performance.

    Order of Develop operations
    The best order of Develop operations to increase performance is as follows:

    1. Spot healing.
    2. Geometry corrections, such as Lens Correction profiles and Manual corrections, including keystone corrections using the Vertical slider.
    3. Global non-detail corrections, such as Exposure and White Balance. These corrections can also be done first if desired.
    4. Local corrections, such as Gradient Filter and Adjustment Brush strokes.
    5. Detail corrections, such as Noise Reduction and Sharpening.
    Note: Performing spot healing first improves the accuracy of the spot healing, and ensures the boundaries of the healed areas match the spot location.
     
  16. KIPAX

    KIPAX Waldorf

    Messages:
    18,947
    Name:
    KIPAX
    Edit My Images:
    Yes


    I agree :)
     
  17. Kodiak Qc

    Kodiak Qc

    Messages:
    14,793
    Name:
    French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Rather later as some will appear better and easier to see
    As DRL will reveal greater details and natural contrast this can also come later in the process

    Yes, I think, is the very first step.
     
  18. ancient_mariner

    ancient_mariner

    Messages:
    7,173
    Name:
    Toni
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I guess we all have our workflow preferences.

    Mine is always lens corrections & framing first, then noise/sharpness, tone curve, any gradients, exposure, colour temperature etc, black & white points, clarity and spot removal. Adjustment of colour temperature and tint will affect white and black point, adjustment of highlights & shadows and the black & white points affect vibrance and saturation, so *for me* it is important to process in that order.

    My approach is to gradually build the image, fixing the easy stuff before doing the more interactive, sensitive stuff at the end. I will sometimes also create virtual copies and try various crops on those after the processing is completed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017 at 6:21 PM
  19. Gaz J

    Gaz J

    Messages:
    2,861
    Name:
    Gary
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I don't think it makes a lot of difference as long as it works for you.

    I never crop, rarely use any brushes for local adjustment, never clone or heal in LR. I always do it in PS which I feel is far better suited for it.
     
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  20. PMN

    PMN

    Messages:
    2,519
    Name:
    Paul
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    My thoughts are don't worry about it too much, any editing step you make on a RAW file can easily be undone so I think it's more a case of finding a workflow that works well for you rather than worrying about a 'technically' correct order to do things in.
     
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  21. TG.

    TG.

    Messages:
    5,895
    Name:
    Tel
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Yep agree with the above, I'm fairly sure their are probably quicker ways than how I do however I've just got into the habit of doing it the way I do, wether that's good or bad I don't know but it works for me, sometimes people just get to technical about things :)
     
  22. soupdragon

    soupdragon

    Messages:
    420
    Name:
    Tony
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I personally do whatever it takes and in no particular order.
    If I'm happy with the end result that's all that matters.
     
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  23. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic

    Messages:
    4,713
    Name:
    Terry
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    As I am processing Fuji raws in photoshop. My first move is to select the film type rather than adobe normal. As this effects everything else.
    Then exposure, highlights, shadows.
    On my x30 adjusting sharpening, vibrance and saturation is only ever done with very great caution, and is generally not a good idea.
    My Xe2 can take a very little imput sharpening, if necessary. I do use the curve tool to adjust selected tones if I want to adjust contrast in specific tonal areas.
    I also use the upright tool to correct verticals while in the raw processor. One of my final moves is to "fine adjust" white balance to taste.
    I sometimes use the gradient tool if it is appropriate.

    The saturation tool can very easily clip colours and destroy detail in things like flowers. However desaturating can some times bring detail back, in the same way the highlight tool can.
     
  24. Kodiak Qc

    Kodiak Qc

    Messages:
    14,793
    Name:
    French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
    Edit My Images:
    Yes

    ^Yep!
     
  25. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic

    Messages:
    4,713
    Name:
    Terry
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    These two shots, that I took yesterday, Illustrate how much you can adjust raw files to give a quite different look to the reality.
    I was waiting for the sun to come through a gap in the clouds before taking a shot of an Uppermill high st town house, when a horse and rider came by. Unfortunately it was still very dull and lifeless, but I shot it never the less. A few minutes later the sun duly appeared for a few seconds and I took another shot.
    Though the horse shot was dull as ditch water, raw processing enabled me to brighten the image and adjust the contrasts to give a quite different impression. However what it can not do is to recreate the shadows. Nor could I bring the colour balance the same, with out making it look even more unnatural. as one was lit by the sky and the other the sun.

    Raw processing is rarely about reality.


    [​IMG]TA3X4941Xweb by Terry Andrews, on Flickr

    [​IMG]TA3X4932Xweb by Terry Andrews, on Flickr
     
  26. PhilH04

    PhilH04

    Messages:
    9
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Not familiar with Rawtherapee... but adopting an ordered routine is very important in my humble opinion.

    I prefer to call the process creating a JPG or TIFF from your raw original (your 'negative').

    First step for me is always White Balance as this can affect any clipping in the colour channels.
    Next step is a rough exposure correction followed by adjusting the overall contrast a little.
    After that check your detail in you highlights and shadows and adjust as needed.
    Once that is done set your white and black points.

    You can then move on to things like Clarity (Mid tone micro contrast) and Vibrance, I only use Saturation in an emergency (i.e. hardly ever)

    All the time keeping an eye on your histogram checking for any clipping or peaks adjusting the exposure/white or black points accordingly. It is acceptable to have some clipping in the highlights (specular) and shadows (full black) as that is important to the overall contrast.

    The final steps for me would be capture sharpening followed by careful and restrained noise reduction if needed, (NR last as all your other adjustments to the treatment of the resulting file will often affect any noise).

    Of course there are other adjustments you can make when creating your final file for export and of course your raw file is never touched, you are just creating a set of instruction for the app to use when exporting your JPG or TIFF.

    Of course others will have differing views and differing ways of working, there really isn't a right or wrong way, it is what works best for you.

    Phil
     
  27. =ReBeL=

    =ReBeL=

    Messages:
    1,080
    Name:
    Adrian
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I never sharpen anything until the end. How can you know what to sharpen and by how much if you still working on the file. I work mostly on studio shots (beauty, glamour, etc.) so I don't have to play with noise reduction.

    In RAW converter it is all about the basics, exposure, shadows, highlights, colour. Then in Photoshop it is all about fine tuning. Sharpening is always the last thing I do.
     

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