and help to keep the site free for all
Raw Editing - Is there a right and wrong sequence?
- Thread starter Forkbeard
- Start date
Kodiak Qc
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 20,285
- Name
- French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Oh yes there is…
and it makes for great debates and differences.
What I practice and teach is
- read all the recorded data properly
- convert from mineral capture to organic rendition
- apply artistic intent
is ever needed in the first two steps if the file was well
exposed and correctly focused.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 6,469
- Name
- Ned
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Or, to put it another way, it doesn't really matter as raw converters tend to be non-distructive (I know nothing of rawtherapee though) so in the same way that in maths it doesn't matter what order you multiply things it doesn't technically matter which way around you process a raw.
Except it does, as multiplications of adjustments can really quickly over-do and screw an image up and depending on what order you do them in it is easy to get the 'maths' wrong. Good news is that as it is non-destructive it doesn't matter as you can go back and re-do it.
Except it does, as multiplications of adjustments can really quickly over-do and screw an image up and depending on what order you do them in it is easy to get the 'maths' wrong. Good news is that as it is non-destructive it doesn't matter as you can go back and re-do it.
Kodiak Qc
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 20,285
- Name
- French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Right.
Right again!
So better learn to do it right than having to redo
and lose time in front of your screen instead of
being behind your camera.
- Messages
- 4,517
- Name
- droj
- Edit My Images
- No
Haven't used Rawtherapee so what I'm about to say is generic - so yes to exposure (usually left as is), contrast (usually increased but not always), histogram end-points, shadows & highlights & all that sort of stuff. As Daniel says, for most purposes forget about saturation and the rest. I rarely apply noise reduction - are you taking shots of black cats in coal cellars? I never sharpen except for particular output requirements at the finished image size. You don't have to use every tool in the box just because it's there. Some tools are just there for emergencies (or those with odd tastes). Colour temperature / tint sometimes need a tweak.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 251
- Edit My Images
- No
Do not listen to this bit of advice - it is quite frankly just wrong.
- Messages
- 41,865
- Name
- 'Gramps'
- Edit My Images
- No
If I intend using noise reduction I would always use it first, my reasoning being that any noise present would be enhanced by any other processing, something I don't want.
Fuji Dave
I'm in Clover
- Messages
- 22,088
- Name
- Dave
- Edit My Images
- No
Rawtherapee is a very good and quite powerful editing software, I use to use it and had fun too. When I use to use it, I would get all the colours and white balance how I wanted, then if it needed to be sharpened then I`d sharpen it a bit. At the end of the day, You took the photo and it is You doing the editing, what I mean by that is, if you get it all just how you like or want then that is all that counts, hope this helps you
- Messages
- 5,001
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I don't have RawTherapee or any of the other RAW editing tools apart from DPP.
My workflow such as it is is this;
1 - check out all my images with Fast Picture Viewer and put the keepers in my "Selected" folder
2 - In DPP convert all those ones to 16 Bit TIFF files in my TIFF folder
3 - Batch process then in Neat Image Standalone noise reduction in my "De-Noised" folder
4 - Edit some in EasyHDR Pro then pass them to: my "Edited" folder as 16 bit TIFF files
5 - Others edit using Serif PhotoPlus X2 and usually save to the "Edited" folder
6 - Batch process them using Easy Thumbnails and convert to JPEG.
So all the way through I have used uncompressed TIFF files and only finally get the JPEG files in the final sequence
I also use EasyHDR Pro beacuse it acts as a kind of variable layers with a great many adjustments although it does emphasise the noise - another reason for using a NR program.
My way of working may upset the purists but at the end of the day I am used to it and it makes my (photographic) life a lot easier.
My workflow such as it is is this;
1 - check out all my images with Fast Picture Viewer and put the keepers in my "Selected" folder
2 - In DPP convert all those ones to 16 Bit TIFF files in my TIFF folder
3 - Batch process then in Neat Image Standalone noise reduction in my "De-Noised" folder
4 - Edit some in EasyHDR Pro then pass them to: my "Edited" folder as 16 bit TIFF files
5 - Others edit using Serif PhotoPlus X2 and usually save to the "Edited" folder
6 - Batch process them using Easy Thumbnails and convert to JPEG.
So all the way through I have used uncompressed TIFF files and only finally get the JPEG files in the final sequence
I also use EasyHDR Pro beacuse it acts as a kind of variable layers with a great many adjustments although it does emphasise the noise - another reason for using a NR program.
My way of working may upset the purists but at the end of the day I am used to it and it makes my (photographic) life a lot easier.
Kodiak Qc
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 20,285
- Name
- French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Last edited:
Fuji Dave
I'm in Clover
- Messages
- 22,088
- Name
- Dave
- Edit My Images
- No
Rawtherapee is a right learning curve, but once you get the hang of it, imo it is one very good bit of software. Here is a link on How Too that helped me when I used it.
http://rawpedia.rawtherapee.com/Main_Page#Compiling
http://rawpedia.rawtherapee.com/Main_Page#Compiling
- Messages
- 358
- Name
- Oliver
- Edit My Images
- No
Your method is fine. You're correct in actioning noise reduction and sharpening after you've adjusted the exposure and shadows. Only once you've raised the shadows will you be able to see the noise you need to reduce.
No idea what any of that means.
Totally incorrect.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 3,294
- Name
- Gary
- Edit My Images
- No
I try and be as efficient as possible so
Lens correction, luminance, sharpening, radius, detail then sync across all the images taken with that lens at that ISO.
Then
Check histogram and tweak if required, white point, black point, highlights, shadows, clarity, masking on each image that I'm keeping.
Lens correction, luminance, sharpening, radius, detail then sync across all the images taken with that lens at that ISO.
Then
Check histogram and tweak if required, white point, black point, highlights, shadows, clarity, masking on each image that I'm keeping.
I always thought Lens correction last as it’s a (processor) intensive process so you don’t really want the computer having to do it time and time again as you process the image in other ways.
- Messages
- 3,294
- Name
- Gary
- Edit My Images
- No
Don't know. I know that brushing and spot removal is but I hardly ever do that in LR.
Adobe's Website have a bit regarding the best way to develop to improve performance.
Order of Develop operations
The best order of Develop operations to increase performance is as follows:
- Spot healing.
- Geometry corrections, such as Lens Correction profiles and Manual corrections, including keystone corrections using the Vertical slider.
- Global non-detail corrections, such as Exposure and White Balance. These corrections can also be done first if desired.
- Local corrections, such as Gradient Filter and Adjustment Brush strokes.
- Detail corrections, such as Noise Reduction and Sharpening.
KIPAX
Seriously Likeable
- Messages
- 20,980
- Name
- KIPAX Lancashire UK
- Edit My Images
- No
Kodiak Qc
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 20,285
- Name
- French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Rather later as some will appear better and easier to see
As DRL will reveal greater details and natural contrast this can also come later in the process
Yes, I think, is the very first step.
- Messages
- 23,517
- Name
- Toni
- Edit My Images
- No
I guess we all have our workflow preferences.
Mine is always lens corrections & framing first, then noise/sharpness, tone curve, any gradients, exposure, colour temperature etc, black & white points, clarity and spot removal. Adjustment of colour temperature and tint will affect white and black point, adjustment of highlights & shadows and the black & white points affect vibrance and saturation, so *for me* it is important to process in that order.
My approach is to gradually build the image, fixing the easy stuff before doing the more interactive, sensitive stuff at the end. I will sometimes also create virtual copies and try various crops on those after the processing is completed.
Mine is always lens corrections & framing first, then noise/sharpness, tone curve, any gradients, exposure, colour temperature etc, black & white points, clarity and spot removal. Adjustment of colour temperature and tint will affect white and black point, adjustment of highlights & shadows and the black & white points affect vibrance and saturation, so *for me* it is important to process in that order.
My approach is to gradually build the image, fixing the easy stuff before doing the more interactive, sensitive stuff at the end. I will sometimes also create virtual copies and try various crops on those after the processing is completed.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 2,531
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- Yes
My thoughts are don't worry about it too much, any editing step you make on a RAW file can easily be undone so I think it's more a case of finding a workflow that works well for you rather than worrying about a 'technically' correct order to do things in.
- Messages
- 6,627
- Name
- Tel
- Edit My Images
- No
Yep agree with the above, I'm fairly sure their are probably quicker ways than how I do however I've just got into the habit of doing it the way I do, wether that's good or bad I don't know but it works for me, sometimes people just get to technical about things
- Messages
- 2,300
- Name
- Tony
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I personally do whatever it takes and in no particular order.
If I'm happy with the end result that's all that matters.
If I'm happy with the end result that's all that matters.
- Messages
- 7,908
- Name
- Terry
- Edit My Images
- Yes
As I am processing Fuji raws in photoshop. My first move is to select the film type rather than adobe normal. As this effects everything else.
Then exposure, highlights, shadows.
On my x30 adjusting sharpening, vibrance and saturation is only ever done with very great caution, and is generally not a good idea.
My Xe2 can take a very little imput sharpening, if necessary. I do use the curve tool to adjust selected tones if I want to adjust contrast in specific tonal areas.
I also use the upright tool to correct verticals while in the raw processor. One of my final moves is to "fine adjust" white balance to taste.
I sometimes use the gradient tool if it is appropriate.
The saturation tool can very easily clip colours and destroy detail in things like flowers. However desaturating can some times bring detail back, in the same way the highlight tool can.
Then exposure, highlights, shadows.
On my x30 adjusting sharpening, vibrance and saturation is only ever done with very great caution, and is generally not a good idea.
My Xe2 can take a very little imput sharpening, if necessary. I do use the curve tool to adjust selected tones if I want to adjust contrast in specific tonal areas.
I also use the upright tool to correct verticals while in the raw processor. One of my final moves is to "fine adjust" white balance to taste.
I sometimes use the gradient tool if it is appropriate.
The saturation tool can very easily clip colours and destroy detail in things like flowers. However desaturating can some times bring detail back, in the same way the highlight tool can.
Kodiak Qc
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 20,285
- Name
- French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Messages
- 7,908
- Name
- Terry
- Edit My Images
- Yes
These two shots, that I took yesterday, Illustrate how much you can adjust raw files to give a quite different look to the reality.
I was waiting for the sun to come through a gap in the clouds before taking a shot of an Uppermill high st town house, when a horse and rider came by. Unfortunately it was still very dull and lifeless, but I shot it never the less. A few minutes later the sun duly appeared for a few seconds and I took another shot.
Though the horse shot was dull as ditch water, raw processing enabled me to brighten the image and adjust the contrasts to give a quite different impression. However what it can not do is to recreate the shadows. Nor could I bring the colour balance the same, with out making it look even more unnatural. as one was lit by the sky and the other the sun.
Raw processing is rarely about reality.
TA3X4941Xweb by Terry Andrews, on Flickr
TA3X4932Xweb by Terry Andrews, on Flickr
I was waiting for the sun to come through a gap in the clouds before taking a shot of an Uppermill high st town house, when a horse and rider came by. Unfortunately it was still very dull and lifeless, but I shot it never the less. A few minutes later the sun duly appeared for a few seconds and I took another shot.
Though the horse shot was dull as ditch water, raw processing enabled me to brighten the image and adjust the contrasts to give a quite different impression. However what it can not do is to recreate the shadows. Nor could I bring the colour balance the same, with out making it look even more unnatural. as one was lit by the sky and the other the sun.
Raw processing is rarely about reality.
TA3X4941Xweb by Terry Andrews, on FlickrTA3X4932Xweb by Terry Andrews, on FlickrNot familiar with Rawtherapee... but adopting an ordered routine is very important in my humble opinion.
I prefer to call the process creating a JPG or TIFF from your raw original (your 'negative').
First step for me is always White Balance as this can affect any clipping in the colour channels.
Next step is a rough exposure correction followed by adjusting the overall contrast a little.
After that check your detail in you highlights and shadows and adjust as needed.
Once that is done set your white and black points.
You can then move on to things like Clarity (Mid tone micro contrast) and Vibrance, I only use Saturation in an emergency (i.e. hardly ever)
All the time keeping an eye on your histogram checking for any clipping or peaks adjusting the exposure/white or black points accordingly. It is acceptable to have some clipping in the highlights (specular) and shadows (full black) as that is important to the overall contrast.
The final steps for me would be capture sharpening followed by careful and restrained noise reduction if needed, (NR last as all your other adjustments to the treatment of the resulting file will often affect any noise).
Of course there are other adjustments you can make when creating your final file for export and of course your raw file is never touched, you are just creating a set of instruction for the app to use when exporting your JPG or TIFF.
Of course others will have differing views and differing ways of working, there really isn't a right or wrong way, it is what works best for you.
Phil
I prefer to call the process creating a JPG or TIFF from your raw original (your 'negative').
First step for me is always White Balance as this can affect any clipping in the colour channels.
Next step is a rough exposure correction followed by adjusting the overall contrast a little.
After that check your detail in you highlights and shadows and adjust as needed.
Once that is done set your white and black points.
You can then move on to things like Clarity (Mid tone micro contrast) and Vibrance, I only use Saturation in an emergency (i.e. hardly ever)
All the time keeping an eye on your histogram checking for any clipping or peaks adjusting the exposure/white or black points accordingly. It is acceptable to have some clipping in the highlights (specular) and shadows (full black) as that is important to the overall contrast.
The final steps for me would be capture sharpening followed by careful and restrained noise reduction if needed, (NR last as all your other adjustments to the treatment of the resulting file will often affect any noise).
Of course there are other adjustments you can make when creating your final file for export and of course your raw file is never touched, you are just creating a set of instruction for the app to use when exporting your JPG or TIFF.
Of course others will have differing views and differing ways of working, there really isn't a right or wrong way, it is what works best for you.
Phil
- Messages
- 1,095
- Name
- Adrian
- Edit My Images
- No
I never sharpen anything until the end. How can you know what to sharpen and by how much if you still working on the file. I work mostly on studio shots (beauty, glamour, etc.) so I don't have to play with noise reduction.
In RAW converter it is all about the basics, exposure, shadows, highlights, colour. Then in Photoshop it is all about fine tuning. Sharpening is always the last thing I do.
In RAW converter it is all about the basics, exposure, shadows, highlights, colour. Then in Photoshop it is all about fine tuning. Sharpening is always the last thing I do.
- Messages
- 2,531
- Name
- Paul
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Likewise, sharpening is always my very final step. Contrast adjustments can make a difference to how 'sharp' an image looks, so actual sharpening only makes sense to me once you've done all your other adjustments and resized (if indeed you are resizing).
That's pretty much the only step of my workflow that has a very definite time it happens though.
OP
- Messages
- 475
- Name
- Jim
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Thanks for all the replies, I've not abandoned the thread - just reading.
I'm going to stop thinking about 'right and wrong' ways of doing things and think about what I want my images to look like. I seem to be getting on OK by shooting jpg and raw, then finding what I don't like about the jpg and figuring out the tool to fix it in Rawtherapee. It's made the program much less daunting and made me notice how rubbish some jpg are. I never realised how much data and detail you lose.
In the end everyone has their own way of doing things and any 'obvious' formula to editing will work it's way to the surface as I progress.
I'm going to stop thinking about 'right and wrong' ways of doing things and think about what I want my images to look like. I seem to be getting on OK by shooting jpg and raw, then finding what I don't like about the jpg and figuring out the tool to fix it in Rawtherapee. It's made the program much less daunting and made me notice how rubbish some jpg are. I never realised how much data and detail you lose.
In the end everyone has their own way of doing things and any 'obvious' formula to editing will work it's way to the surface as I progress.
OP
- Messages
- 475
- Name
- Jim
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I'm noticing how much the in camera contrast settings can wipe out detail and colours as well. I've learned that being cautious with contrast can do great things for an image in raw.
- Messages
- 1,095
- Name
- Adrian
- Edit My Images
- No
There is no "right or wrong" as such, you can always say it is your "artistic vision" to do things in a certain way, but there are some things in retouching that are a good practice and help you to speed up the process. It's fine if you have time to spend however long you want on each file, but if you want to be efficient, there are some things that I would only do at a certain point in my edit. Otherwise I would be just creating more work for myself. To prevent that I have a very specific workflow and always do things in order.