Royal car attacked

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goldenlight said:
I like your reasoning, James, spot on! :)
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Not just reasoning John, personal experience...

I pay £936 a year through my self-assessment to my Student Loan...Meanwhile, I have an outstanding balance of roughly £13.5k which is seen as a "debt" by any potential mortgage lenders. My girlfriend is in the same situation, with £14.5k of debt (she came from a lower income family and got a bigger loan - thus more to pay back...disinsentive? thought so!). We both earn between £25k and £35k a year (i'm not telling you exactly ;) ) but can't get a mortgage anywhere as we're not good candidates.

Makes me wonder why we both bothered with uni...we were both hit by public sector cuts/recession/global economic crisis...she was applying for the Probation Service when they stopped recruiting in the recession, and I never even got a chance to apply as most Town Planning jobs were pulled from adverts shortly before I graduated. We both did "vocational" degrees, but still didn't get work.

Not quite sure where all these people who now won't go to university are supposed to find work either...there's not enough to go round as it is!

Edit: Apologies for flirting with the political line...
 
Flash In The Pan said:
removed - before I get Hacker-slapped :naughty:
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Haha! I read it Graham, before you thought better of it. Fair comment - in the words of The Who, "We won't get fooled again!"

Come to think of it, if you read all the lyrics to that song, it was rather prophetic. :D
 
jamesb84 said:
Not just reasoning John, personal experience...

I pay £936 a year through my self-assessment to my Student Loan...Meanwhile, I have an outstanding balance of roughly £13.5k which is seen as a "debt" by any potential mortgage lenders. My girlfriend is in the same situation, with £14.5k of debt (she came from a lower income family and got a bigger loan - thus more to pay back...disinsentive? thought so!). We both earn between £25k and £35k a year (i'm not telling you exactly ;) ) but can't get a mortgage anywhere as we're not good candidates.

Makes me wonder why we both bothered with uni...we were both hit by public sector cuts/recession/global economic crisis...she was applying for the Probation Service when they stopped recruiting in the recession, and I never even got a chance to apply as most Town Planning jobs were pulled from adverts shortly before I graduated. We both did "vocational" degrees, but still didn't get work.

Not quite sure where all these people who now won't go to university are supposed to find work either...there's not enough to go round as it is!

Edit: Apologies for flirting with the political line...
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I'm sorry to hear that, James, it echoes the fears I have for my daughter should she want to go to uni. I wouldn't regard your post as in any way political, it's merely stating the facts and the truth - which in fact is anything but political!
 
I was under the impression that the new rules would reclassify the loan as a tax liability (so no different to having a change in tax code) rather than a debt which would mean it has a lesser impact on credit applications:shrug::thinking:. To be honest, while I don't think the changes are a bad idea I do think the way that information has been put out there and explained to people has been woefully inadequate.
 
jamesb84 said:
Not just reasoning John, personal experience...

I pay £936 a year through my self-assessment to my Student Loan...Meanwhile, I have an outstanding balance of roughly £13.5k which is seen as a "debt" by any potential mortgage lenders. My girlfriend is in the same situation, with £14.5k of debt (she came from a lower income family and got a bigger loan - thus more to pay back...disinsentive? thought so!). We both earn between £25k and £35k a year (i'm not telling you exactly ;) ) but can't get a mortgage anywhere as we're not good candidates.

Makes me wonder why we both bothered with uni...we were both hit by public sector cuts/recession/global economic crisis...she was applying for the Probation Service when they stopped recruiting in the recession, and I never even got a chance to apply as most Town Planning jobs were pulled from adverts shortly before I graduated. We both did "vocational" degrees, but still didn't get work.

Not quite sure where all these people who now won't go to university are supposed to find work either...there's not enough to go round as it is!

Edit: Apologies for flirting with the political line...
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A guy from the brokers John Charcoal was on radio five yesterday and he said that there are lenders who do not count student loans as debt, and that they do not show up on a credit search. However, the repayments that you make reduce your income, so that your affordability calculations mean you can borrow less. Maybe contact them to recommend a lender who would not view it as debt????

What they said was that the new scheme would mean that repayments would be lower than they are currently, meaning that less money coming out of a persons income, so that they coudl actually borrow more for there mortgage. I realise that it doesn't help you, but it actually makes it easier to get a loan in the future.

As someone who was in the last batch ever (I deferred for a year so everyone else in my year paid fees) to not pay fees, I feel lucky, but can't agree with the level of violence in this protest. I am sure that students could come up with a better way of protesting to mroe effect.
 
goldenlight said:
I'm sorry to hear that, James, it echoes the fears I have for my daughter should she want to go to uni. I wouldn't regard your post as in any way political, it's merely stating the facts and the truth - which in fact is anything but political!
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No, it's OK...we like our rented flat. It's in a nice part of Bristol, I enjoy my job in Photography...my GF is progressing in the NHS quite well.

But, every now and then you sit and wonder if things would be different. Both of our current jobs don't require degree-level education...could've saved a lot of money!

Whether you believe one politician or another, this decision will affect people going to Higher Education...something which everyone benefits from to a degree (pardon the pun!).

The thing that's made me most angry today is the response of The Sun...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ng-Britain-as-orgy-of-violence-continues.html

My response to that headline would be "This country and government has insulted them...they have every right to have a go...just the same as attacking the royal car.
 
Shame they didn't protest like this against the war in Iraq. All they can do is kick up a fuss about fees for a worthless university education, where everyone is given a prize no matter how badly they perform! :-(
 
Thing is, it's slightly easier for students to take time off to protest. The rest of us work and have more to lose should we be arrested, lose our job etc. It's a shame for the genuine cases, but perhaps there'll be less 'mature' students who spend their entire life in uni rather than working.

What with the police being able to charge you with breach of peace for sneezing, I can understand why people are reluctant to stand up against some of the stupid decisions that the government make.

Most interesting I find is that these people can find the time and effort to go out and protest but I don't see masses of people going out and helping shovel the snow and ice to help those less capable. Perhaps that isn't as much fun for them.
 
How brave of that girl to attack the memorial to men and women far greater than she will ever be, who died so that she has the freedom to protest about having to invest in her future.

Her parents must be so proud.
 
gman said:
I don't see masses of people going out and helping shovel the snow and ice to help those less capable. Perhaps that isn't as much fun for them.
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That's what my Mum says about running etc for charity: "Why don't they offer to dig someone's garden?"
 
gabe said:
Shame they didn't protest like this against the war in Iraq. All they can do is kick up a fuss about fees for a worthless university education, where everyone is given a prize no matter how badly they perform! :-(
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Just how exactly are people given a prize no matter how badly they perform? It's perfectly possible to fail a degree, and as of this year passing with a 2.2 qualification is no longer sufficient to apply for most graduate positions.
 
gabe said:
Shame they didn't protest like this against the war in Iraq. All they can do is kick up a fuss about fees for a worthless university education, where everyone is given a prize no matter how badly they perform! :-(
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Well, fine, if what you say is true why don't we completely close all the universities, that way everyone will be treated the same and there will be no debts incurred by anyone. Might leave us a bit short of doctors, engineers and scientists in the future but hey, we can always get those from overseas.

So it's not the level of violence you object to, it's the cause to which it is applied. Rioting like this as a protest against the war in Iraq would have been OK? :shrug:
 
wow, came back from lunch and the thread has doubbled in length...

im not saying i want to become a police officer to batter students... i just dont agree with there mindless violence towards everything in london, seems pointless, it isnt going to help there cause is it!!!

still think that National Service should be brought back XD
 
gman said:
Thing is, it's slightly easier for students to take time off to protest. The rest of us work and have more to lose should we be arrested, lose our job etc. It's a shame for the genuine cases, but perhaps there'll be less 'mature' students who spend their entire life in uni rather than working.
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Most mature students are people that have chosen to enter university later in life. They are not life-long students as you imply. In my expereince mature students tend to take better advantage of university - they value the opportunities more. And if I lived my student career over again I would probably choose not to enter uni until I'd spent some time out in the world. However it's a good job I didn't choose that path, as the way things have gone since I could never have afforded the fees.
 
TriggerHappy said:
It's perfectly possible to fail a degree, and as of this year passing with a 2.2 qualification is no longer sufficient to apply for most graduate positions.
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Isn't that more to do with the number of positions against the number of graduates rather than the level of qualification?
 
BandyQuill said:
wow, came back from lunch and the thread has doubbled in length...

im not saying i want to become a police officer to batter students... i just dont agree with there mindless violence towards everything in london, seems pointless, it isnt going to help there cause is it!!!

still think that National Service should be brought back XD
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Ah, glad to hear you don't really advocate using a baton with a nail in it to club the first student (guilty or not) that you see. :)

The thing with forcing thugs to do national service is it trains them to be fitter, stronger and more dangerous. Our forces are the most professional and best in the world, let's keep it that way.
 
Kev M said:
Isn't that more to do with the number of positions against the number of graduates rather than the level of qualification?
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Yes. Still, the fact remains that you need to perform to get a certificate at the end. And you need to perform well for that certificate to be worth something in the job market. Appreciate where you're coming from though :)
 
gabe said:
Shame they didn't protest like this against the war in Iraq. All they can do is kick up a fuss about fees for a worthless university education, where everyone is given a prize no matter how badly they perform! :-(
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Did you miss the protest? The probability is that you knew someone that was there. Stop the War March, February 15th 2003, London, the UKs largest ever political protest event? And there's been several since, both in London and around the provinces.
 
Alastair said:
Did you miss the protest? The probability is that you knew someone that was there. Stop the War March, February 15th 2003, London, the UKs largest ever political protest event? And there's been several since, both in London and around the provinces.
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Ah, but maybe it wasn't violent enough for gabe?
 
gabe said:
Shame they didn't protest like this against the war in Iraq. All they can do is kick up a fuss about fees for a worthless university education, where everyone is given a prize no matter how badly they perform! :-(
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It's probably a good job people don't protest like this too often because if this was a regular event then you can bet your tuition fees that we'd see a much tougher style of policing like you see in other countries. The horses would be put away and it'd be out with the water cannons, tear gas and rubber bullets.

And I doubt a violent protest would have been any more effective than the ones we had anyway.
 
Kev M said:
And I doubt a violent protest would have been any more effective than the ones we had anyway.
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Quite the reverse, I'm sure. It's true that violent protests grab more headlines (for all the wrong reasons) but it is the peaceful protests that tend to be listened to more by the people who matter. Violence alienates the cause, no matter how righteous and just that cause may initially be. Sadly that irony is mostly overlooked by the perpetrators, although many of them care little about the cause, merely using it as a vehicle for their own subversive agenda.
 
TriggerHappy said:
Clearly kettling wasn't used in 2003 :LOL:
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Well, it takes two to tango and mistakes are not all one sided. My personal yardstick is that the truth is seldom found in extremes.
 
goldenlight said:
many of them care little about the cause, merely using it as a vehicle for their own subversive agenda.
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Sadly the peaceful protesters seem to be completely oblivious to this fact and as a consequence sympathy for their cause is evaporating.
Peaceful protest against the severest of odds provides the most powerful and long-lasting effect.


Tiananmen-Square-protest--006.jpg
 
gramps said:
Sadly the peaceful protesters seem to be completely oblivious to this fact and as a consequence sympathy for their cause is evaporating.
Peaceful protest against the severest of odds provides the most powerful and long-lasting effect.


Tiananmen-Square-protest--006.jpg
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Nail! Head! Direct hit and driven home in one!
 
TriggerHappy said:
Clearly kettling wasn't used in 2003 :LOL:
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They'd have been pushed to manage it back then.. they were significantly out-numbered on the day :D

Have to hand one thing to the student protesters, they ain't stupid. After being kettled hard on the first protest they adapted quickly. The subsequent protests have been much more fluid and adopted the tactic of fragmenting and going mobile. So to an extent, some of the violence could no doubt have been avoided if the policing tactics respected the right to peaceful protest and didn't try to coral large numbers of people in small spaces for extended amounts of time - without access to toilet and welfare facilities., in the bitter cold, etc. Treat people worse than animals and you have to take the consequence when they react against it.

If kettling continues then guerilla protesting is going to increase, and the non-peaceful elements will gain strength. Of course this works in the politicians favour as the media will happily spin the Charles and Camilla angle whilst ignoring the opinions of the majority of peaceful protesters. You've got to be violent to get attention these days.
 
Alastair said:
They'd have been pushed to manage it back then.. they were significantly out-numbered on the day :D

Have to hand one thing to the student protesters, they ain't stupid. After being kettled hard on the first protest they adapted quickly. The subsequent protests have been much more fluid and adopted the tactic of fragmenting and going mobile. So to an extent, some of the violence could no doubt have been avoided if the policing tactics respected the right to peaceful protest and didn't try to coral large numbers of people in small spaces for extended amounts of time - without access to toilet and welfare facilities., in the bitter cold, etc. Treat people worse than animals and you have to take the consequence when they react against it.

If kettling continues then guerilla protesting is going to increase, and the non-peaceful elements will gain strength. Of course this works in the politicians favour as the media will happily spin the Charles and Camilla angle whilst ignoring the opinions of the majority of peaceful protesters. You've got to be violent to get attention these days.
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Huge question marks hang over the policy of kettling, it is indiscriminate and affects people who have nothing to do with the violence or even the protest. However public opinion is often a knee-jerk reaction and violent demonstrations like we've just seen will only move opinion in favour of kettling and suddenly it will seem appropriate and acceptable.

Peaceful protest may not always seem the most effective on the day, but over time if it is repeated and enough participate it becomes very powerful. A violent protest strengthens the hand of the Government and detracts from the real issue. David Cameron is right, the attack on the royal car was disgraceful. Worse, it completely draws attention away from what many see as the disgraceful policies of the Government.

One thousand rioters will never effect a change in government policy. One million peaceful protesters and the Government would be in danger of collapse.
 
photon said:
... or David Gilmour's son?
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Well, at least he is contrite, apologetic and seems to be genuinely remorseful - or has been told to be. Roger Waters would not be too impressed as the sacrifice his own father made has had a huge impact on his life and this can only further strain relations with David Gilmour, although I'm not sure how much that would bother either of them.
 
BandyQuill said:
i might go out into town tonight and see if i can kettle some students in leeds XD
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they went about the kettling the wrong way, never mind dozens of police on horseback, all that was needed was half a dozen border collies, they'd soon have rounded all the miscreants up :D
 
goldenlight said:
Many of us did, only to find out later that our vote was being hijacked to support a government and policies for which we definitely would not have voted.

Sure, it was a hung parliament and the Liberals decided to join the Conservatives in a coalition government. Once the Spending Review had been published, however, another general election should have been called to gain the electorate's endorsement. Without that it is an imposed government that has not been democratically elected.
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Oh right, so we'll have to have a General Election for every major decision will we ??

It doesn't matter who got in at the last election, the Country is in a state and it needs a firm but responsible hand to bring it back in line.
 
goldenlight said:
David Cameron is right, the attack on the royal car was disgraceful.
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I think it was rather clever of them to drive through the protests. Caught off guard my arse, it was a nice tactic to hit the media spotlight and divert attention away from the protest issues.

But these days I agree that violence doesn't really do them any favours unless it's on mass scale like civil war.
 
protest is different from mindless destruction.
 
Agree, no need for mindless violence and to say you would drive the royals through a protest on purpose is crazy!

Just shows the complete lack of respect that todays younger generation have and the acceptance of wanting something for nothing.

Lazy so and so's should get a job rather than toss it off getting a degree and ending up on a till in some supermarket somewhere!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
jontymo said:
and to say you would drive the royals through a protest on purpose is crazy!
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It's a bunch of kids - hardly a heavily armed IRA level threat against the armed protection the Royals have plus the reinforced car. If the armed police drew their weapons the "tough" trouble makers would most likely run like gazelles on steriods.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least and Charles would probably be up for it anyway! lol
 
gman said:
It's a bunch of kids - hardly a heavily armed IRA level threat against the armed protection the Royals have plus the reinforced car. If the armed police drew their weapons the "tough" trouble makers would most likely run like gazelles on steriods.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least and Charles would probably be up for it anyway! lol
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Don't let the medals fool you, he got them the same way that Mutley got his....
 
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