Rude?

[sirch]

Generally, I have found that few who offer critique truly are skilled in such endeavors. Most who attempt it have little understanding of what they are doing. For example, most critiques begin with the photograph. Actually, skilled critiques begin with the EXIF. The reason one needs to begin with the EXIF is so that an understanding of the photographer can first be gained. Too often a critique operates from the perspective of the experience and capability of the person doing the critiquing. For example, in the extreme, the critique takes the position that if the photographer used a Nikon D850 and was a master of GIMP or PS he should have done this or that. And, to some degree the person critiquing may be just that. But, if the photographer uses a point and shoot, and edits with a simple online editor then the critique becomes more a criticism of him/her rather than a critique of the photograph. Thus in most cases I have found that critiques are often more unintended criticism than critique.

I'm going to cut you a little slack because I think (hope) what you were getting at was that crit should be relevant to the skill level of the photographer. But for crit to be really helpful it needs to be in the context of a body of work, not just a single photo and I see that as the biggest issue, people so often just post single photo. Yes, advice and crit can be given for a single photo but it tends to be very formulaic and rules based because there is no wider context about the photographer’s motivations.

 

[Pound Coin]

Robin covered that

Who ever designed Xen ( and previously vB, ) obviously thought that the system(s) in place were plenty.
TP Has been going for about 15 years there are over 60,000 members ( granted a small percentage post regularly)
And (iirc) you are only the 2nd person to mention that the current / historic system doesn't suit your needs.
So I doubt there will be a change to it anytime soon.

People mentioning the system doesn't suit needs may be the tip of the iceberg - the iceberg being the number of people that don't return to threads to finish them off. Which seems to be the point of this thread.

There, you'll have to reply again.

 

[RedRobin]

There you go again with weird sniping. No I am not saying that.

What I am saying is that if the behaviour of posters falls below what might be expected for the smooth interactions on the forum, that if there is a one click or other straightforward way to assist less frequent users then that behaviour may fall more in line with what is optimum.

Saying that posters should return to threads to give thanks, or end threads off, seems fine but not having an easy way to do this doesn’t help. Maybe it is possible with a forum modification?

.... No sniping is intended [on this occasion]

I actually do understand that you would prefer a more efficient and faster method in the way you refer to in your Reply #159.

You can't please all of the people all of the time and it is a well known fact that forum software has limitations and cannot always be modified. @Cobra 's reply to you puts the subject into context anyway.

 

[Pound Coin]

Robin covered that

No, he didn't - what I'd asked was "is there a quick link to threads the you have posted in and have had replies?"

 

[Pound Coin]

.... No sniping is intended [on this occasion]

I actually do understand that you would prefer a more efficient and faster method in the way you refer to in your Reply #159.

You can't please all of the people all of the time and it is a well known fact that forum software has limitations and cannot always be modified. @Cobra 's reply to you puts the subject into context anyway.

Thank you.

It may well be that forum limitations are leading to sub-optimal behaviour (not returning to threads posted in), and this is just a factor in this particular forum software.

 

[RedRobin]

I'm going to cut you a little slack because I think (hope) what you were getting at was that crit should be relevant to the skill level of the photographer. But for crit to be really helpful it needs to be in the context of a body of work, not just a single photo and I see that as the biggest issue, people so often just post single photo. Yes, advice and crit can be given for a single photo but it tends to be very formulaic and rules based because there is no wider context about the photographer’s motivations.

.... So are you suggesting that photographers should subject themselves to all their work as a whole being judged? By whom? Even if they have academic qualifications, their judgements will always be according to what they consider as 'good'.

I only take notice of other photographer's opinions about my work if I admire their work - That is their only qualification which I will accept.

I fear there is too much over thinking going on about this subject. An image either appeals to you or it doesn't and that can be for emotional and/or technical reasons. What others think about one's efforts is far less important [Except that I want lots and lots and lots of Likes!].

 

[Cobra]

No, he didn't - what I'd asked was "is there a quick link to threads the you have posted in and have had replies?"

Well OK he answered inasmuch as he gave you all the available alternatives

the iceberg being the number of people that don't return to threads to finish them off. Which seems to be the point of this thread.

And as I said way back there are a lot of people, far more than I expected TBH that have notifications turned off.

There, you'll have to reply again.

Of course its rude not too

It may well be that forum limitations are leading to sub-optimal behaviour (not returning to threads posted in),

But generally its the same ones over and over again that post and move on, hardly if ever commenting or liking other peoples images.
And again, there are one or two, obviously I can't check everyone's but on a straw poll ( mine) some of the prolific thankers or likers have all their notifications turned off.
So I see no excuses whatsoever for not returning to a thread and at least giving a like by way of thanks for the comments on their (Image) threads.

 

[StephenM]

I only take notice of other photographer's opinions about my work if I admire their work - That is their only qualification which I will accept.

An image either appeals to you or it doesn't and that can be for emotional and/or technical reasons.

In the absense of a button...

Dislike.

But to discuss why I think this is shortsighted/misses the real point is off topic, so I personally won't.

Just wish there was a "dislike" or "disapprove" just to enable dissent to be made without going off topic.

 

[RedRobin]

In the absense of a button...

Dislike.

But to discuss why I think this is shortsighted/misses the real point is off topic, so I personally won't.

Just wish there was a "dislike" or "disapprove" just to enable dissent to be made without going off topic.

.... Fair enough Stephen - We can agree to differ in our opinions . I was just breaking it down to the fundamentals and always react to photographers/artists getting intellectual about their work.

Hey, if you want to express a type of dislike you can always just hit the Quote button and then choose an appropriately negative smilie such as etc. Just a couple of clicks et voila mes cheries [said in a Kenny Everett's Marcel voice].

 

[droj]

I only take notice of other photographer's opinions about my work if I admire their work - That is their only qualification which I will accept.

On this basis, only a skilled musician could meaningfully critique a piece of music, and only a skilled painter could critique a painting ...

Yet for instance, I'm no musician yet derive huge enjoyment from hearing music, and will critique a musical work according to how I experience and respond to it, analysing something of its character, not its technique. I don't think that critique has to be all-encompassing to be valid, but its value could derive from whether it seems to ring true.

Of course truths can be uttered to which the recipient is resistant. That doesn't automatically make them invalid, either.

 

[Dale.]

I'm not posting as much as I used to (I'm also not taking as many photos) but I like to offer crit when I can. This is one of the things though (besides the time factor too), I'm not always qualified to offer crit on certain images, infact, I'm more qualified to be looking for advice on my own images.

I sometimes feel crit isn't always accepted in the spirit it's meant and this has put me off recently.

One other thing I've noticed too is how quick threads die, once they drop into the lower half of the first page, they rarely make a comeback, which might be going back to Chris' point.

Also, time is a huge factor just now, that is always variable for me, sometimes I have lots of spare time, others I don't.


I've learned a lot here though and come a long way, it's a good place to be as there are quite a few people who always go the extra mile to help out.

 

[Mr Badger]

I love the way part of this thread seems to have metamorphosed into a critique of critique.

I think what critique should begin with, and concentrate on, should depend on the type of photograph and subject (apart from where basic and unintentional errors in focus or exposure settings are obvious). You certainly can't put every photo into the same 'box' when appraising them, or at least you shouldn't. Otherwise it becomes more akin to painting by numbers than photography; a grotesque, formulaic process rather than an art form.

Photography is a broad church, and so it should be. What makes a great photo can depend on many things and technical perfection often pales into insignificance due to other factors. Were all the widely acknowledged great photographs of the 20th century pin sharp, for instance?

Technical crit needs to be subjective (in a good way); in my opinion, the first (and overarching) question should be 'does the photo work', the second question should then either be 'if not, why not?' or 'if so, could it reasonably have been improved?'. I believe the usefulness of crit tends to depend on the level of understanding of the person or persons giving it.

 

[Barrysprout]

No, he didn't - what I'd asked was "is there a quick link to threads the you have posted in and have had replies?"

Thank you.

It may well be that forum limitations are leading to sub-optimal behaviour (not returning to threads posted in), and this is just a factor in this particular forum software.

I've never had a problem with the notifications system on my PC.

I have all my alert preferences turned on
and under content options I have:

"Automatically watch content you create…" checked
and "Automatically watch content you interact with…" checked

When I visit the site any new alerts are highlighted

And when I click the alerts button I have a list of recent alerts

New alerts which I havent checked back in on have a different background so it's easy to see what I have missed,

Once the alerts button has been clicked the red "alert number" disappears even if I haven't clicked a link and I won't recieve any more alerts for that thread until I have revisited it.
This allows me to choose to stop following a thread without manually unsubscribing from it.

If I have cleared the "alert number" I can still click on the alert tab to show any recent activity and again anything I haven't visited still has a different background colour



There is also an option to see all alerts at the bottom.

 

[Barrysprout]

If I feel that I may have missed something on the alerts system I can also click the forums tab which has the option to view all the threads I am watching under "watched / watched threads"

By clicking the watched threads option I have a list of all threads I've created/took part in or just manually added to my watch list.
Any threads which have new content since my last vist have the title in bold and will remain bold until I visit that thread again.

 

[RedRobin]

I've never had a problem with the notifications system on my PC.

I have all my alert preferences turned on
and under content options I have:

"Automatically watch content you create…" checked
and "Automatically watch content you interact with…" checked

When I visit the site any new alerts are highlighted

And when I click the alerts button I have a list of recent alerts

New alerts which I havent checked back in on have a different background so it's easy to see what I have missed,

Once the alerts button has been clicked the red "alert number" disappears even if I haven't clicked a link and I won't recieve any more alerts for that thread until I have revisited it.
This allows me to choose to stop following a thread without manually unsubscribing from it.

If I have cleared the "alert number" I can still click on the alert tab to show any recent activity and again anything I haven't visited still has a different background colour

I

.... All, plus your next Reply, very helpful indeed Ian - I didn't realise I could get all those selection results and so I thank you and also click you a Like. And a smilie!!

 

[Cobra]

I've never had a problem with the notifications system on my PC.

Excellent post Colin, thanks for that.
You have explained very well, "stuff" I do without thinking, and didn't think to add to my posts

 

[sphexx]

What utter utter utter nonsense.
A photograph stands and falls on its own merit, not on the gear used or ‘settings’.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s taken by a teenager on an iPhone, a student on an entry level dslr and kit lens or a Hasselblad.

I do see why you say that but I don’t think @West Camera is saying what you think he is saying. To take an extreme example, it would be no good saying the negative suffers from processing deficiencies if the EXIF shows it taken with a digicam.

 

[Pound Coin]

If I feel that I may have missed something on the alerts system I can also click the forums tab which has the option to view all the threads I am watching under "watched / watched threads"
View attachment 251517
By clicking the watched threads option I have a list of all threads I've created/took part in or just manually added to my watch list.
Any threads which have new content since my last vist have the title in bold and will remain bold until I visit that thread again.

View attachment 251518

Excellent stuff, thank you.

This is something I hadn't known about and will be helpful, although it's not 100% go what I'd mentioned above it's nearly there: I shall bookmark it and will be very useful! Thanks again.

 

[SFTPhotography]

no musician yet derive huge enjoyment from hearing music

Christ I don't - but I do get the point of your post.

However I tend to see critique as a double edged sword - often it can be helpful - and other times it discourages you from pursuing your own direction as others might be disparaging about work you like the best. I frequently find that the pictures (of my own and others) that I like the best - are not what others like the best. Critique is great - but if you just follow the advice and judgement of others (particularly in terms of processing) how can you call your work your own?

 

[sirch]

So are you suggesting that photographers should subject themselves to all their work as a whole being judged?

Not at all, just more than one photo in a related set to see what the overall intent is. One photo, they might have just got lucky or have been having a bad day.

I only take notice of other photographer's opinions about my work if I admire their work

How do you know you admire their work? I bet it’s based on more than one photo, may be a book, exhibition or a look at their flckr.

 

[Barrysprout]

.... All, plus your next Reply, very helpful indeed Ian - I didn't realise I could get all those selection results and so I thank you and also click you a Like. And a smilie!!

I would have reciprocated the like if I knew who the heck Ian was

 

[Barrysprout]

You have explained very well, "stuff" I do without thinking

Yep, I really had to think about what I normally do on auto pilot

 

[Ed Sutton]

But for crit to be really helpful it needs to be in the context of a body of work, not just a single photo and I see that as the biggest issue, people so often just post single photo. Yes, advice and crit can be given for a single photo but it tends to be very formulaic and rules based because there is no wider context about the photographer’s motivations.

I get the impression that a lot of people take photographs without considering them as a body of work. A mate of mine has actively dismissed the idea of starting a project, for example, when a mutual friend suggested that might get him out taking more photos.

These photographers seem to think in terms of single images worthy of putting in a frame and hanging on a wall, even if they never actually do that, that is the thinking behind their photography. It's why the Personal Projects forum is full of tumbleweed!

 

[droj]

Critique is great - but if you just follow the advice and judgement of others (particularly in terms of processing) how can you call your work your own?

Yep, I'd be the last to follow anyone else's instructions, but I can still listen to what people say and judge it's worth - and maybe also keep it in mind and tally more with it later, or not.

 

[Barrysprout]

I'm loving the fact that @Cobra has set himself up to have to be the last person to post in this thread

 

[Cobra]

I'm loving the fact that @Cobra has set himself up to have to be the last person to post in this thread

Its easy enough, I just lock it and post ( I can post in locked threads )


But in reality ( as mentioned several posts back) it was the image threads I was talking about. Debating threads (en mass ) are a totally different scenario.
Many discussion threads are started, and the OP only ever makes one post.
Or the thread goes so far off track that they obviously don't bother to return.

 

[nandbytes]

Its easy enough, I just lock it and post ( I can post in locked threads )


But in reality ( as mentioned several posts back) it was the image threads I was talking about. Debating threads (en mass ) are a totally different scenario.
Many discussion threads are started, and the OP only ever makes one post.
Or the thread goes so far off track that they obviously don't bother to return.

Now you are just snaking your way out of it

 

[Mr Badger]

Snip:

I get the impression that a lot of people take photographs without considering them as a body of work.

I think this is probably because a lot of people these days are simple-minded and have the attention span of a gnat and are too easily distract.... Oh, look, a squirrel!

 

[sirch]

I get the impression that a lot of people take photographs without considering them as a body of work. A mate of mine has actively dismissed the idea of starting a project, for example, when a mutual friend suggested that might get him out taking more photos.

These photographers seem to think in terms of single images worthy of putting in a frame and hanging on a wall, even if they never actually do that, that is the thinking behind their photography. It's why the Personal Projects forum is full of tumbleweed!

I’m sure you are correct but IMHO it’s a lot easier to establish what level someone is at and therefore what might be constructive crit if there are a number of photos. If one time it’s a sweeping vista, next it’s a macro butterfly and then a head-shot it’s a lot harder to say anything meaningful. It doesn’t have to be a “project” (some people seem to attach so much of their own baggage to perfectly simple and useful words and phrases) but if the viewer can establish a deliberate direction of travel then the crit might be more useful.

Suppose I post a picture of a gull eating a chip on a promenade. Put it in the birding section and it would at best be ignored as not a “serious” bird photo. Put it together with several others from the same prom in “architecture and urban” or ”general” and it might make a good narrative which can be commented on in the correct context.

 

[sirch]

Snip:

I think this is probably because a lot of people these days are simple-minded and have the attention span of a gnat and are too easily distract.... Oh, look, a squirrel!

Reminds me of the old gag:
How many kids with ADHD does it take to change a light bulb
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Wanna play on the xbox?

 

[Ed Sutton]

Suppose I post a picture of a gull eating a chip on a promenade. Put it in the birding section and it would at best be ignored as not a “serious” bird photo. Put it together with several others from the same prom in “architecture and urban” or ”general” and it might make a good narrative which can be commented on in the correct context.

This is the problem with categorising photographs by 'genre' and the main reason I mostly stick to posting photos in the Projects forum.

 

[Harlequin565]

These photographers seem to think in terms of single images worthy of putting in a frame and hanging on a wall

Decor. That's the word I use for it. I find I can no more critique it, than I can critique someone's choice of wallpaper or curtains. Unless it's really pretty. Then I usually like it.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I get the impression that a lot of people take photographs without considering them as a body of work.

I'm sure that *most* people take photographs without intentionally building a body of work - those who do are surely the exception, rather than the rule, even on here.

 

[StephenM]

I'm sure that *most* people take photographs without intentionally building a body of work - those who do are surely the exception, rather than the rule, even on here.

I'm certainly in that category - I just go out and photograph whatever catches my eye. On the other hand, when I attended a "building your portfolio" workshop armed with a representative sample of my prints, I saw, in the light of what had been said, that I did indeed have a coherent body using just over half of the prints I'd brought along. It would appear that I photograph trees...

 

[sirch]

These photographers seem to think in terms of single images worthy of putting in a frame and hanging on a wall

Decor. That's the word I use for it.

Do they though? Increasingly over the last year or so I have been not shooting loads of stuff because I keep asking myself why? Why shoot it, if I am not going to hang it or put it in a book?

And I keep thinking that of 99% of the stuff I see online, on here and elsewhere. Most of it is simply not even décor, it’s “hey look, I managed to press the shutter button and tweak a few LR sliders”. I fully accept that I’m as guilty of that as anyone, I make the effort to go out and snap some random stuff and I want some kind of outcome for my efforts and that outcome is often to vomit whatever I have dredged out of LR all over the internet.

Anyway on that nihilistic cheery note

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

It would appear that I photograph trees...

Funny you should mention that...

 

[Cobra]

Now you are just snaking your way out of it

The phrase you are looking for is "Pulling rank"

I'm sure that *most* people take photographs without intentionally building a body of work -

I take images for me, for relaxation and fun, my ( usually attached) "Commentary" or captions are / is proof of that
If it makes people laugh, great, if they "like it" for what it is, also great.
If no one laughs or "Likes" it then who cares? I don't..
I don't need or seek the admiration or approval of my peers.

BUT I will always respond and reciprocate if someone is kind enough to comment.

The circle is complete

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

The circle is complete

Thank you Ouroboros.

 

[Cobra]

Thank you Ouroboros.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Do they though? Increasingly over the last year or so I have been not shooting loads of stuff because I keep asking myself why? Why shoot it, if I am not going to hang it or put it in a book?

And I keep thinking that of 99% of the stuff I see online, on here and elsewhere. Most of it is simply not even décor, it’s “hey look, I managed to press the shutter button and tweak a few LR sliders”. I fully accept that I’m as guilty of that as anyone, I make the effort to go out and snap some random stuff and I want some kind of outcome for my efforts and that outcome is often to vomit whatever I have dredged out of LR all over the internet.

Anyway on that nihilistic cheery note

I don't know many photographers in 'real life'. One I do know was a photography student and his personal work is project based. He also takes cityscapes which he sells occasionally. One belongs to a camera club and from what I've seen he takes yer usual camera club photographs. The other one takes pictures of things and places he likes trying to make them look like stuff he sees in photography magazines.

As you know I also suffer from the 'why am I doing this' thing. I ge over it by convincing myself that I WILL do something with one or other body of work I've created. Just as soon as I get my confidence to the right level...

On the other hand, when I attended a "building your portfolio" workshop armed with a representative sample of my prints, I saw, in the light of what had been said, that I did indeed have a coherent body using just over half of the prints I'd brought along. It would appear that I photograph trees...

If you photograph random stuff for long enough then patterns and themes do emerge when you revue your pictures. Looking back at the stuff I did in the late '70s and early '80s before I took a break from photography as an end in itself I realised that the themes/subjects in my work these days are pretty much the same.