Sky Arts ~ Masters of Photography

Depending on how it was done, it might qualify for the review/critique element of fair use in UK copyright law...

(as photographers, while we should value copyright, we shouldn't do as Big Business does and pretend that fair use neither exists nor is valuable to society)
 
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TheBigYin said:
Beat me to it... but NO, it would't be appropriate to post the images unless you happened to be one of the contestants and had permission from the shows producers to do so.
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Why the shouty? No works just as well as NO.

It's a redundant point as they have now published the pictures, so can just link to their page, but the reason I asked related primarily to the fact it was a TV show which happened to contain images of photographs (as well as other material) rather than photographs (which have special protection in limited circumstances).

I'm not going to post anything, but would 10 frames from an hour long program not fall under fair dealing as defined here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright?

Either to study whether the judges opinions are broadly representative of those of a diverse group of photographers?

Non-commercial research and private study
You are allowed to copy limited extracts of works when the use is non-commercial research or private study, but you must be genuinely studying (like you would if you were taking a college course). Such use is only permitted when it is ‘fair dealing’ and copying the whole work would not generally be considered fair dealing.

The purpose of this exception is to allow students and researchers to make limited copies of all types of copyright works for non-commercial research or private study. In assessing whether your use of the work is permitted or not you must assess if there is any financial impact on the copyright owner because of your use. Where the impact is not significant, the use may be acceptable.

If your use is for non-commercial research you must ensure that the work you reproduce is supported by a sufficient acknowledgement.
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Or to review and comment upon the opinions of the judges on the show?

Criticism, review and reporting current events
Fair dealing for criticism, review or quotation is allowed for any type of copyright work. Fair dealing with a work for the purpose of reporting current events is allowed for any type of copyright work other than a photograph. In each of these cases, a sufficient acknowledgement will be required.

As stated, a photograph cannot be reproduced for the purpose of reporting current events. The intention of the law is to prevent newspapers or magazines reproducing photographs for reporting current events which have appeared in competitor’s publications.
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In both cases, I feel it would pass the tests relating to fair dealing:

Factors that have been identified by the courts as relevant in determining whether a particular dealing with a work is fair include:

  • does using the work affect the market for the original work? If a use of a work acts as a substitute for it, causing the owner to lose revenue, then it is not likely to be fair
  • is the amount of the work taken reasonable and appropriate? Was it necessary to use the amount that was taken? Usually only part of a work may be used
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Anyway, as I said at the start - the images can now be found here - http://masterofphotography.tv/en/
 
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Furtim said:
Why the shouty? No works just as well as NO.
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ok then

no.

that make you feel any better ??

Now please, pretty please with sugar on the top - stop arguing with the management when they tell you not to do something that could well end up in Sky's legal team bankrupting this forum and closing it down.

thank you.
 
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Furtim said:
I'm not going to post anything, but would 10 frames from an hour long program not fall under fair dealing as defined here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright?

Either to study whether the judges opinions are broadly representative of those of a diverse group of photographers?
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Actually, even as photographs, if they’re linked, would almost certainly be ok.

BUT... if you were admin of this site, would you want to spend a significant amount of time (and possibly money) arguing the toss with photographers who believe you’ve breached their copyright?

The simple truth is that a blanket policy if not allowing people to post others images is the most effective way to avoid that hassle ;)
 
I don't currently have access to SkyArts so I don't get the chance to catch this, but there was a time I used to watch their similar painting programmes. Half the reason for watching it was to hate-watch the judges and their consistently terrible Emperor's New Clothes choices.
 
TheBigYin said:
ok then

no.

that make you feel any better ??

Now please, pretty please with sugar on the top - stop arguing with the management when they tell you not to do something that could well end up in Sky's legal team bankrupting this forum and closing it down.

thank you.
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Oh for goodness sake.
I asked if it was okay before I did anything.
You shouted/said no, I said I wouldn’t.
I explained why I asked.

Why the need to be condescending?

Phil explanation hits the spot. Probably okay but not worth the potential faff.
 
When are we allowed to discuss the images, maybe the day of the next episode?
 
The Flint Stelter photo is comically awful. So I assume the judges loved it and they won the round?
 
Furtim said:
Oh for goodness sake.
I asked if it was okay before I did anything.
You shouted/said no, I said I wouldn’t.
I explained why I asked.

Why the need to be condescending?

Phil explanation hits the spot. Probably okay but not worth the potential faff.
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Do stop whining like a five year old, there's a good chap.

The reason for them not being posted is perfectly straight forward; it also has sod all to do with copyright.

This website has a long running practice of not critiquing images of people who are not members of the forum and therefore are unable to defend themselves.

It's basic manners.
 
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DemiLion said:
Do stop whining like a five year old, there's a good chap.

The reason for them not being posted is perfectly straight forward; it also has sod all to do with copyright.

This website has a long running practice of not critiquing images of people who are not members of the forum and therefore are unable to defend themselves.

It's basic manners.
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If you really want to talk about basic manners, perhaps learn some.
/goodbye
 
DemiLion said:
This website has a long running practice of not critiquing images of people who are not members of the forum and therefore are unable to defend themselves.
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I would agree that this is, in general, a sensible and polite approach.

It could be argued, however, that in this specific case the photographers in question have, by being a part of this show / competition, made the images they create as part of the show open for public discussion.
 
Can we stop arguing over silly things? it's not so hard to go to the Sky Arts site and see the images, I'm sure it's then ok to discuss them here, right? I suggested above that we discuss the previous week's offerings the day of the next episode [Tues] so everyone has a good week to catch up before any spoilers. I know I won't watch until Friday evening, it's the only time I get near the TV
 
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Cagey75 said:
... I'm sure it's then ok to discuss them here, right?
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Not really I'm afraid. Discussing generalities is fine, but critique on specific images goes against the forum's basic practice ( as mentioned above).
 
DemiLion said:
Not really I'm afraid. Discussing generalities is fine, but critique on specific images goes against the forum's basic practice ( as mentioned above).
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We can't even discuss the judges opinions?? Or what we might have selected? Hmmm, pity, I'd love to hear other's thoughts on it from here.
 
There have been discussions in the past about international competition entries.
I think we need a sensible admin input on this.
The images are in the public domain to be critiqued.
 
DemiLion said:
Do stop whining like a five year old, there's a good chap.
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DemiLion said:
Dummy, pram.
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I really don't understand the need to make this personal.

Phil V said:
There have been discussions in the past about international competition entries.
I think we need a sensible admin input on this.
The images are in the public domain to be critiqued.
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Again, Phil's post hits the spot.

FWIW, I don't see anyone here breaking any rules, whether they be legal or site based, just asking sensible questions seeking clarification before acting to ensure the status quo is maintained.
I don't get why this has escalated!
 
DemiLion said:
Not really I'm afraid. Discussing generalities is fine, but critique on specific images goes against the forum's basic practice ( as mentioned above).
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I beg to differ Mark. Images that are already out there, as in put on TV or in the press (LPOTY/WPOTY are examples), are fair game as opposed to those on a photographer's own website where they haven't been posted for critique. Just don't post any of the photos on here.
 
All images at http://masterofphotography.tv/en/

I've tagged as spoiler just in case:

For me, the pictures taken by Wayne Crichlow, Danyelle Rolla & Monika Milewska didn't fit the brief. They could have been taken absolutely anywhere.

The ballerina in the back seat of the car by Alex Liverani is interesting - I like the layered approach (reflection from window of behind photographer, the dancer and then the view through the far window, not sure about the subject (the legs!), but nice interaction matching the shapes of the reflection. Certainly some thought went into that one.

Also the dancer 'vomiting' linguine by Flint Stelter was thought out. The footballer and the religious picture, staple food etc. Again, showed some thought which I would not have put into it. I don't understand why he would deliberately blow out the face as he did though.

If I was to put one one my wall, it would be the brief breaking dancer in the space by Monika Milewska, but I can understand why the judges would favour the more conceptual approaches to fulfilling the brief.
 
Episode 1, Season 3 pictures are here - http://masterofphotography.tv/en/episodes/dancing-naples/

I like the processing in Wayne's. but don't see the brief in it. I do find it interesting to look at though.

Paolo's - I don't get the exposure, I really struggle with that part of it.

Alex's - again you can argue about the brief and if it's 'good', but for me, he had a clear vision in his head, went out, found his shot, and delivered a photograph. So have to applaud him for that.

I love the colour grading in Monika's shot, and generally find it a pleasing image.
 
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Rather strangely, looking at them again now from the link above I have different feelings towards some of the images. Whether it’s down to not having long to properly take in the photographs when they’re on tv or something else but I certainly let like them more viewing them again in my own time.
 
andy1868 said:
Rather strangely, looking at them again now from the link above I have different feelings towards some of the images. Whether it’s down to not having long to properly take in the photographs when they’re on tv or something else but I certainly let like them more viewing them again in my own time.
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Yes, the images are only on screen for a couple of seconds at a time. Would be better if they left them up whilst the judges are talking, we don't need to see their faces.
 
andy1868 said:
Rather strangely, looking at them again now from the link above I have different feelings towards some of the images. Whether it’s down to not having long to properly take in the photographs when they’re on tv or something else but I certainly let like them more viewing them again in my own time.
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Marc said:
Yes, the images are only on screen for a couple of seconds at a time. Would be better if they left them up whilst the judges are talking, we don't need to see their faces.
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Yeh the format of the show is almost as annoying as the voice over!!

I get that they want to make it about the people, because it is a reality tv show competition, but many of us are there for the images!
 
Marc said:
I beg to differ Mark. Images that are already out there, as in put on TV or in the press (LPOTY/WPOTY are examples), are fair game as opposed to those on a photographer's own website where they haven't been posted for critique. Just don't post any of the photos on here.
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If there's been a shift in forum policy, then fair enough. My comments were based on multiple discussions being shut down in the past with mods citing the reason that I posted.
That wasn't other people's websites. That was publicly released images, such as Testino's shots of royal children and Wildlife Photographer of the Year. Not to mention the yearly critique of the Taylor Wessing.
 
That's the beauty of watching the show later, you can pause to view the images better and also ffwd the adverts.

My quick thoughts [forgot we could spoiler tag here:

For me, one of the picks of the bunch came from Monika Milewska, I really thought her dancer by the pillars was the strongest BEFORE she went OTT on the processing. It was much better before, she dulled it down and gave it a cold blue cast that took away from it for me.

I also really liked Paulo Baretta's effort. Maybe if he hadn't blocked so much of his model

My third pick would have been the image Danyelle originally planned to show, before the guest photographer put her off. I was screaming at the screen "NOOOO! don't listen to him, it's a trap!!" - I was right, her initial instinct was to use the image of the dancer high kicking in front of a Police car, the guest told her it was "too cliché" - I felt he was testing her, she knew it was a strong image, but she folded.

I wasn't sorry to see Susanne go, the image should never feature you as far as I'm concerned, unless the brief is self portrait. She was a little over eager to stick herself in the frame, she didn't seem to care what her model did

As for the 2 images the judges chose as best, well, I can only imagine they were trolling a bit. Flint's image was not only badly exposed, but the model looks like she's vomiting spaghetti, and her make up looks like something you'd slap on the kids last minute for them to go trick or treat. I feel nothing about it, it certainly doesn't scream 'Naples' to me. Federica's shot looks like a weird double exposure, the man on the right looks like it's sliding in from another image. And I swear, if the dancer had struck any other pose it would have worked a bit better.
 
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Gogster said:
What are they using? Leica SL?
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They don't have as much choice as before, they all get the SL and a range-finder type body and the same couple of lenses, previous series they could choose from more bodies and lenses per episode
 
Eloise said:
For the first challenge: they got a Leica SL with a "zoom" lens (it wasn't stated what length) and a Leica Q.
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Ah that was it, think the zoom is the 90-280mm with the weird hood. I didn't pay too much attention to the actual gear.
 
Furtim said:
Agreed, points per challenge and a leaderboard would work, perhaps dropping the bottom few who are statistically out of contention later in the show.
Problem being I suppose, if there's a clear leader, makes the 'show' pointless, so perhaps, move to same format as now once a few weeks in, taking top 5 across for example.
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I recall last year (think it was a guy from London) had the "star pic" 3 times in 4 or 5 weeks but had one bad week and left. Better to be average until the final than push and take risks.
 
Watched episode 1 last night, typically I disagreed with quite a bit! I though the spaghetti shot was good but he had better images with the face not so blown out. Great idea though. Loved the ballerina shot through glass which I think split the judges, the guest loved it. For me the poor images were from Wayne, Susanne, Paolo, Marietta. The ones from Alex (although I didn't think it deserved the praise that it got), Federica, Danielle with Nora, Monika and Flint the stars.

Already wound up by some of the pretentiousness off the judges and contestants!
 
Episode 2 - Pictures here (or click on Photographers name in spoiler) http://masterofphotography.tv/en/episodes/pets-and-friends/

Wayne Crichlow (Pig)
He was terrible at building rapport with the owner, very dismissive in fact, and that to me was the reason the image is so boring.

Paolo Barretta (Snake)
Difficult subject but worked well with the owner. I liked how he dropped the saturation on the owner to bring out the colours and texture of the snake. Good rapport too.

Nora Kabli (Cat)
Another very rude photographer, very poor at connecting with the owner. Didn't want a cat and was quite open about it to the poor owner.

Monika Milewska (Meerkat)
Very similar colour grading to her entry last week. Certainly has a style. I liked this one more than the judges.

Marietta Varga (3 Legged Dog)
I think she had a bit of a challenge to get everything into one picture. Again she was very poor at building rapport with the owner, lots of whining that the dog didn't fit her fixed idea. In the end, I though the concept was a good one though, not sure how she would have built the entire narrative into one picture.

Flint Stelter (Bearded Dragon)
You could say he was lucky with the owner and pet, but equally, rather like last week, he also made his own look. Excellent rapport with a very shy owner, and borrowing / swapping clothes too. I like this one a lot.

Federica Belli (Guide Dog)
I get the idea, but it just didn't work, but at least there was an idea.

Danyelle Rolla (4 Big Dogs)
Stark contrast in approach between this one and Marietta - both had ideas, neither worked. Marietta moaned, Danyelle adapted. Again, she worked with the owner well.

Alex Liverani (Parakeet)
Quite boring this one - agreed with the judges. Such a departure form the very constructed image last week (the legs in the taxi). He was lucky one of the judges saw something in the image that no one else did! This would have had my vote as weakest.
 
I probably won't watch it till Friday night so I'll avoid here until then J.I.C! :D
 
I thought this was a tough one, while I love cats its much harder trying to get one in the right position compared to most others. Thought the stand out one was Waynes, loved the humour and not an easy subject. Paolos was also very good. I thought the judges had it all wrong, criticising Monika (or Federica, or both) for cutting out the owner but allowing Nora to progress who did the same and with an average (at best) image. Danielle had the right idea but poorly done. Nora was the only one who deserved to go.
 
Agreed on Nora, she was my pick in terms of who should go, i thought she was a bit rude about the cat too at one stage and just thought that when the woman sees the show she will probably be annoyed. I actually liked Danyella's shot, definitely not an easy subject either, but i think the pig shot was my favourite. I was quite annoyed at their comments regarding Marietta because i thought her actual idea was a very good one and showed that the dog depends on her due to only having three legs in the same way a human does on it's dog but they seemed to pass that off as nonsense despite some of the utter tripe that some people come out with the try and justify their photos story wise at other times that they lap up.
 
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