The great TP election thread

Phil V said:
Sorry.
I think I knew you were living in France (brain fade) :( - it wasn't a personal dig, but I know most people (a big majority) didn't vote on the AV referendum, and those that did vote, voted against by a sizeable majority.
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what I think happened Phil was that AV was not in the interests of the Tories or Socialist so they did not back or promote AV ........ it was presented on a party political basis and was never fairly explain ........

I just think that the UK needs a change to bring politics nearer the people, especially the young .......... and this needs to be ongoing and dynamic
 
BillN_33 said:
what I think happened Phil was that AV was not in the interests of the Tories or Socialist so they did not back or promote AV ........ it was presented on a party political basis and was never fairly explain ........

I just think that the UK needs a change to bring politics nearer the people, especially the young .......... and this needs to be ongoing and dynamic
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But part of the reason people voted not to change is for that reason, they are Tory or socialist so prefer that rather than a wider mix. You may think politics needs a change but most people don't.
 
BillN_33 said:
I think that it is even worse in Wales Ade .. they get more seats than they are "proportional" due to compared with England

But the European systems are screwed up and I'd be better moving to South Africa and living in the mountains up back from the South coast, (my wife says No! - go by yourself), ..... inspirational every morning when you wake up ........ and a wonder to see every day ......... I have been trying to persuade both my (grown up) kids who are both very well qualified and paid to leave the UK and get out into the world before they are ground down by the system in Europe ......... but I'm just a "grumpy old man"
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Move to Kynsna or Oudtshoorn Bill, job done.
 
cambsno said:
But part of the reason people voted not to change is for that reason, they are Tory or socialist so prefer that rather than a wider mix. You may think politics needs a change but most people don't.
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I think that they were persuaded by the main 2 political parties and the press than by fair logical argument .......... but that's just my speculation
 
BillN_33 said:
what I think happened Phil was that AV was not in the interests of the Tories or Socialist so they did not back or promote AV ........ it was presented on a party political basis and was never fairly explain ........

I just think that the UK needs a change to bring politics nearer the people, especially the young .......... and this needs to be ongoing and dynamic
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Absolutely, but I personally think Labour missed a trick with it, I think as the UK political scene fragments more we are in danger of becoming a single party state. But as has been mentioned, the system on the table was far from ideal, the whole debate was hamstrung from the start.
 
fracster said:
Move to Kynsna or Oudtshoorn Bill, job done.
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That's were we stay Ade, Kynsna area and last year we also had a week in Oudtshoorn, next to a bloody Ostrich farm

i reckon that you could live of £10k to £15k a year out there ........ £150k gets you a good house with land etc., .......good food is really cheap .....
If you needed medical cover because of your age - you would have to throw in another £3k to £4k a year

Oh to be 20 again!!!

View from front and back terraces ........... compressed with a telephoto lens

just booked Feb/Mar 2016

Front view

the_head.jpg


Back view

back.jpg
 
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Is cheetah world still going out near Oudtshoorn?

You been down the Cango caves?
 
BillN_33 said:
cannot remember that unless it was on the road on the left as you drive out to the North
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I think it is out on the road up to the karoo, been a while since I went.
 
fracster said:
My issue is, and always has been, how can such a small percentage of the population, have so many seats available to them in Westminster?

It is wrong and always has been in my opinion.
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Scottish population is 8% of the UKs. There is 650 seats and they have 56 of them. Perhead it is about right at 8.1% of the seats in westminster.
 
ST4 said:
Scottish population is 8% of the UKs. There is 650 seats and they have 56 of them. Perhead it is about right at 8.1% of the seats in westminster.
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Didn`t know it was that high, thanks for correcting me Steve.
 
ST4 said:
Scottish population is 8% of the UKs. There is 650 seats and they have 56 of them. Perhead it is about right at 8.1% of the seats in westminster.
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i think that Scottish seats/population were brought in line a few years ago .......... but not yet for Wales ............
 
fracster said:
Is cheetah world still going out near Oudtshoorn?

You been down the Cango caves?
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no my son and his girl friend did - they had a strange experience when they got to the bottom cave which apparently has a very narrow entrance - I think that there was a party of 30 and the last but one, a "fat" lady got stuff in the entrance ..... they had to get the equivalent of the "fire brigade" to release her and 27 people were stuck down there for an hour + .... the lady was not popular........ kind of put me off

bot son and daughter with their other halves come out to see us for about 10 days

Some great birding places around Ade ....... but I only found three "hides"

I spend quite a lot of time just driving around the dirt roads and inland "lakes"
 
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Couldn't resist sharing this

We had a village golf event at St Andrews today which I didn't play as I was watching football.

Two of my pals are pretty competitive.

The rules were 'match play' - number of holes won out of 36 (two rounds) rather than 'stroke play' where the best (lowest) score for the two rounds round wins.

Of the pairing - the guy that lost shot a better score over the two rounds.

The winner - he said he knew the rules and played his golf accordingly. ;)
 
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View attachment 36943
2blue4u said:
Change.org is massively flawed in that it is not possible to voice a counter viewpoint.

So, FPTP is flawed? AV would have produced a Cameron led CON/UKIP coalition. Is that better or worse than an outright CON win?
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It's not about which party wins it's about an unfair system.From the pie chart attached the Cons would still have won but the HOC would reflect the peoples will far better.It's not about designing a system that allows a particular party to win.
 
shapeshifter said:
View attachment 36943
It's not about which party wins it's about an unfair system.From the pie chart attached the Cons would still have won but the HOC would reflect the peoples will far better.It's not about designing a system that allows a particular party to win.
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Did it take into account that people will/might change the way they would vote under such a system? Sure if everyone truly voted for the party they want than you can take it as representative. To me it is just another system with its own flaws.
 
dejongj said:
Did it take into account that people will/might change the way they would vote under such a system? Sure if everyone truly voted for the party they want than you can take it as representative. To me it is just another system with its own flaws.
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i think that you have to assume that under an AV system the vast majority would still vote for the same party as before ....... and that tactical voters would not influence either system

I think most people would see the AV figures in the about chart as a more fairer system, even if they disagree with the outcome.

I think that what a parliament based on an AV system delivers would be more acceptable to today's population of the UK than what the present system delivers ...... but that's just my guess

some people will say that an AV parliament will result in weak decisions ....... I disagree

times have changed and I feel that we need to take this "two party" aggression out of politics

I also think that an AV system would bring more transparency in Parliament


so it's
AV
kick Scotland out
leave the EU
and win the Ashes and the Rugby World Cup

is it

I'd certainly settle for two of those for starters

and I'm sure that if the Tories guaranteed that England would win the football World Cup the next time around they would get another 100 Labour seats ......... football is more important than politics for many (men) ....... and therein lies a problem
 
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shapeshifter said:
View attachment 36943
It's not about which party wins it's about an unfair system.From the pie chart attached the Cons would still have won but the HOC would reflect the peoples will far better.It's not about designing a system that allows a particular party to win.
Click to expand...

I guess it is time for a change,but i don't think their ever going to be the political will from both the main party for that,so it needs the will of the people for the change to happen,and as a nation we have never be very good at wanting changes :(
 
It is simply more than just saying we want to change. Who will represent an area? In the current system, the person with most votes win. As said there is no second place.

Where would the UKIP seats come from? In every area they got votes, more people wanted another party. How would the area be decided? Which area would end up with an MP they didn't want?

Please explain at a seat level how this would work
 
Dale_tem said:
It is simply more than just saying we want to change. Who will represent an area? In the current system, the person with most votes win. As said there is no second place.

Where would the UKIP seats come from? In every area they got votes, more people wanted another party. How would the area be decided? Which area would end up with an MP they didn't want?

Please explain at a seat level how this would work
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as it stands

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/alternative-vote
 
Dale, with PR you get the candidate who gets the most votes but there are also List places which go to parties based on percentage of vote. So party A win 70% of seats on the actual vote Party B get 30% of seat on the actual vote. Party A then gets X number of List seats based on their vote percentage, followed by Party B etc.
 
Surely the first person still wins the same seat?

The pie charts show the seats representative of total votes. The idea of 1st and 2nd votes would not lead to the pie chart shown in this thread.

They say there would be tactical voting, there would be. Your 2nd vote would have to go to someone else. labour wouldn't want conservative and vice versa.

The danger is how people vote on the 2nd vote, we could end up with the person nobody wanted.
 
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as someone has just said, first Salmond and now Sturgeon ........ it's all a bit "fishy" up there
 
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BillN_33 said:
as someone has just said, first Salmond and now Sturgeon ........ it's all a bit "fishy" up there
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PJ O'Rourke on the BBC News site :)
 
Phil V said:
Absolutely, but I personally think Labour missed a trick with it, I think as the UK political scene fragments more we are in danger of becoming a single party state.
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B******s on stilts. Or perhaps just flat out lazy a****d intellectual generalizing if I am being more charitable. As long as we have more than one party to vote for (and we always will) we will never become a single party state. We are in no danger of becoming North Korea, the only single party state in the world I think.

Regards
 
Finste said:
B******s on stilts. Or perhaps just flat out lazy a****d intellectual generalizing if I am being more charitable. As long as we have more than one party to vote for (and we always will) we will never become a single party state. We are in no danger of becoming North Korea, the only single party state in the world I think.

Regards
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Scotland is pretty much a one party state.
 
cambsno said:
Scotland is pretty much a one party state.
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In Scotland you can vote for the following parties;

Labour
Conservative
Lib Dem
Green
UKIP
SSP (I think)
SNP

In what way does that choice make it a one party state. Or are you getting confused with the will of (half of ) the people.

Regards
 
Finste said:
B******s on stilts. Or perhaps just flat out lazy a****d intellectual generalizing if I am being more charitable. As long as we have more than one party to vote for (and we always will) we will never become a single party state. We are in no danger of becoming North Korea, the only single party state in the world I think.

Regards
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I'm not sure why you chose to misinterpret my post in that way?
I meant this kind of thing...
cambsno said:
Scotland is pretty much a one party state.
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It doesn't matter how many parties there are on the ballot paper, once the boundaries have been redrawn, there's a real chance that under the current system it would take a seismic shift to change the winning party.
 
That's the Westminster way.
 
Just looking at the Scottish Election results from outside ....... they must be unique for any Democratic country, in terms of votes and seats ......... anyone know of another similar example?

Happens in Central or S America? ..........

really strange ....... almost unbelievable ...... don't really know what to make of it?
 
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Phil V said:
I'm not sure why you chose to misinterpret my post in that way?
I meant this kind of thing...


It doesn't matter how many parties there are on the ballot paper, once the boundaries have been redrawn, there's a real chance that under the current system it would take a seismic shift to change the winning party.
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Then you are getting the will of the people mixed up with a single party state. The people may vote for a single party out of many but they are doing so through a choice not available in a real single party system. It is important to make this distinction and not conflate the two.

Regards..
 
BillN_33 said:
Just looking at the Scottish Election results from outside ....... they must be unique for any Democratic country, in terms of votes and seats ......... anyone know of another similar example?

Happens in Central or S America? ..........

really strange ....... almost unbelievable ...... don't really know what to make of it?
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Reagan 84:-
1020px-ElectoralCollege1984.svg.png
 
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