The lost craft of photography?

Just a quick one.

Why do people seem to conveniently be ignoring my comment about no post with transparency film. Forget social or news..... No don't forget news as I seem to remember seeing the wonderful images coming out of viatnam in the 60s shot on Kodachrome. Anyway most commercial work was shot on transparency and it was no good supplying the printer or projecting anything other than a top notch image which meant you had to get it right in camera and the tolerances with slide film could be really tight.

Anyway I'm away soon for a week but don't worry I'll try and spend a bit of time thinking up another contentious thread to post! Lol :nono:

Because its incorrect - there was always a post process even with transparency, it was just that in that case the post processing took place mostly during the printing phase.

(although even with slide, process can be pushed, pulled etc in the developing phase)
 
Because its incorrect - there was always a post process even with transparency, it was just that in that case the post processing took place mostly during the printing phase.

(although even with slide, process can be pushed, pulled etc in the developing phase)


That only equates to minimal adjustment with "exposure" in Lightroom, and as for printing, some local dodging, burning, and minimal contrast adjustment. Not much else. Doesn't really equate to most people's post processing routine. I'd be amazed if even 10% of people in here do only this little or less processing.


This comparing digital post processing to analogue darkroom processes doesn't really work you know... it's a really crap analogy.
 
Because its incorrect - there was always a post process even with transparency, it was just that in that case the post processing took place mostly during the printing phase.

(although even with slide, process can be pushed, pulled etc in the developing phase)

You're assuming they were printed on photographic paper, which for a photographers portfolio or exhibition they probably were, but a professional commercial photographers work went straight from the transparency to full printing press, with no adjustments.

I'll go as far as to say pretty much everything you saw in a magazine 20+ years ago was shot on tranny and straight into print from that, no adjustments.

Most new "photographers" today couldn't do that if their life depended on it.....does it matter?... probably not, life moves on, but the point remains, the craft of photography is dying, however, its being replaced by another craft, digital imaging. :)
 
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That only equates to minimal adjustment with "exposure" in Lightroom, and as for printing, some local dodging, burning, and minimal contrast adjustment. Not much else. Doesn't really equate to most people's post processing routine. I'd be amazed if even 10% of people in here do only this little or less processing.


This comparing digital post processing to analogue darkroom processes doesn't really work you know... it's a really crap analogy.

So no one did more extreme processing in darkrooms then ? no one composited two images together before printing or cross proccessed film ? every darkroom photographer only did some "local dodging and burning and minimal contrast adjustment"

yeah , erm right okaaay. :shake:
 
So no one did more extreme processing in darkrooms then ? no one composited two images together before printing or cross proccessed film ? every darkroom photographer only did some "local dodging and burning and minimal contrast adjustment"

yeah , erm right okaaay. :shake:

Composites? Sure they did. That's your idea of extreme processing?

That's not processing really though is it.. compositing images is nothing new.

I'm talking about the average work flow these days. Exposure adjustment, clarity adjustment, highlight recovery, saturation increase (usually far too much), HDR, colour curves adjustments (ironically, overused to replicate "film" even though I know of NO film stock that actually looks like that), detail extraction... then there's the god awful Color Effex, and Silver Effex... I'm sorry.. no, you cannot compare traditional darkroom practice to today's vast (and often sickening) array of options.
 
With the exception of minor exposure adjustment and saturation I don't use any of those effects in my workflow - and exposure adjustment was done in the darkroom by pushing or pulling film or by dodging and burning - saturation increase decrease is essentially the equivalent of using a warm up or cool down filter which used to be a routine part of film photography just done in camera in stead of in post

and talking about god awful effects do you not remember the 1980s craze for horrific filters liker tobaco grads , and artificial suinsets, and starbursts, soft focus vignettes etc - they were easily as nasty as the most overblown post processing available today
 
Why do people seem to conveniently be ignoring my comment about no post with transparency film.

Even with negative film sent to a lab for processing and printing, there is effectively no post processing.

If you can trust your lab to process and print consistently then there are no variables there. You know what you are going to get back and everything under your control is done in camera.

This is how weddings were shot for many decades.


Steve.
 
The 2013 POTY competition on this forum was meant to be low/no PP so that film and digital entries could be compared more equally. Turns out that its not really possible to do this and that digital entrants consider high levels of PP to be the norm, with many digital entries being subjected to a lot more PP than would be expected.
 
and talking about god awful effects do you not remember the 1980s craze for horrific filters liker tobaco grads , and artificial suinsets, and starbursts, soft focus vignettes etc - they were easily as nasty as the most overblown post processing available today

A few months ago I was given a cross filter. This gives a starburst effect to all bright highlights. I haven't had the nerve to try it yet!


Steve.
 
So no one did more extreme processing in darkrooms then ? no one composited two images together before printing or cross proccessed film ? every darkroom photographer only did some "local dodging and burning and minimal contrast adjustment"

Most photographers only do minimal 'processing' under the enlarger.

The king of composites was Frank Hurley. War photographer and the photographer and Ernest Shackleton's Antarctic expedition (and others).

He would regularly replace bland skies with something more dramatic and stage and enhance his battlefield images.

http://redtreetimes.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/frank-hurley-wwi.jpg
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/01/16/430_hurley,0.jpg

Steve.
 
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With the exception of minor exposure adjustment and saturation I don't use any of those effects in my workflow

I never said you did :)

saturation increase decrease is essentially the equivalent of using a warm up or cool down filter which used to be a routine part of film photography just done in camera in stead of in post

That didn't change saturation... just white balance.

and talking about god awful effects do you not remember the 1980s craze for horrific filters liker tobaco grads , and artificial suinsets, and starbursts, soft focus vignettes etc - they were easily as nasty as the most overblown post processing available today

I do yes.... they were the province of the amateur mainly however. Not much has changed in this respect. However... the truly overcooked, oversaturated, over detailed HDR extravaganza is a new phenomena.

It's like anything... the unschooled will have no finesse. It's like modifying a car. A talented designed will create something elegant, understated and harmonious. The talentless hack will create something that looks like you've magnetised your car and driven through a branch of Halfords.

The talentless hack has soooo much much more he can ruin his photos with these days though
 
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Composites? Sure they did. That's your idea of extreme processing?
It might be pretty involved though; I attempted a 12 element composite once; never did get the damn thing to blend. Another time, spent an entire week-end trying to make a bass relief of a ruined wall.
That's not processing really though is it.. compositing images is nothing new.
Back to them goal-posts & semantics.
'Post-Processing'
Post, after the event. whats the event? Image Capture. Moment of exposure.
Process taking something from one state or condition and making it different.
Take it at its strictest, base level, then, and anything you do to an image, after point of capture, to make a viewable picture can be considered 'Post-Processing'.
Breaking that down though, what we got?
Developing a latent image? It's post moment of capture; but could be argued that you don't have anything you can see until you've done it, I suppose.
So, corrections & adjustements? Push or pull processing could be considered a correction... exposure compensation in printing, cropping... where do you draw the line, and deem stuff no longer corrections or adjustments and 'enhancements' or 'Touching Up'?
Where does vignetting or dodging & burning fit?
Then into more convoluted manipulations, like Bas relief or Composites.
I'm talking about the average work flow these days. Exposure adjustment, clarity adjustment, highlight recovery, saturation increase (usually far too much), HDR, colour curves adjustments (ironically, overused to replicate "film" even though I know of NO film stock that actually looks like that), detail extraction... then there's the god awful Color Effex, and Silver Effex...
Well... takes you into a list of pretty specific photo-shop slider-bar adjustments or automated, multi-change 'filter' processing macros, that are, in your opinion, too often over used and used inappropriately or just plain badly.

But you cant blame the tool for the bad workman!

doesn't mean that the hammer is a BAD too, just because Bodget & Scarper choose to bash a few planks together, knocking in screws with it, rather than use a screw-driver, or making proper joints, and then try passing result off as a piece of crafted 'rustic' furniture!

I'm sorry.. no, you cannot compare traditional darkroom practice to today's vast (and often sickening) array of options.

Yes you can.
Took me a week-end to make a not too wonderful bass relief of a ruined wall.
I can now make not so wonderful Bass reliefs of many photo's in Micro-Grafix, in a matter of mouse clicks!

Digital Manipulation, like Automatic-Program-Exposure has taken a lot of 'chore' mechanics from old dark-room procedures, and made a lot of new effects possible... compounding them to macro driven filters, and making them so much more easier to apply?!?

Reminds me of a little wisdom offered by my High-School wood-teacher, in much the same vein as bashing screws in with a hammer; "Power tools? Wonderful inventions, that allow the patient craftsman to do more work.. or the impatient apprentice to effup-faster!"
 
Back to them goal-posts & semantics.

Technically, yes, but I think you knw where I'm coming from. Each element in the composite may well be unprocessed. Visually... assuming you know what you're doing when you shoot the components... it still doesn't necessarily mean it will LOOK processed. Other than the fact that it's nailed together from other bits and pieces... the overall is not "Processed" in the way that is under debate here.





But you cant blame the tool for the bad workman!

I'm not.. I firmly lay the blame at the feet of the workman.


Everything else you say I'm actually in agreement with. Dodging, burning, vignetting, cropping... the usual suspects are all derivatives of traditional processes, yes. There is however, as you well know, a whole host of them that are not, and were impossible pre digital. I reckon the vast majority of most people's work flow would be impossible to recreate in a traditional darkroom.
 
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That didn't change saturation... just white balance.

Good point :bonk:

one the otherhand saturation could be artificialy influenced by film choice - velvia 50 for example produced a very saturated (and 'unrealistic' ) image
 
Good point :bonk:

one the otherhand saturation could be artificialy influenced by film choice - velvia 50 for example produced a very saturated (and 'unrealistic' ) image


Yep.. absolutely. Every film had it's own characteristics. I still love, and still use Portra 160NC for it's mellow, low contrast, low saturation look actually.

The differences were pretty subtle compared to the vast range you can experiment with now though. Velvia 50 under exposed by 1/3rd was pretty wild though :)
 
OFF TOPIC:-
A few months ago I was given a cross filter. This gives a starburst effect to all bright highlights. I haven't had the nerve to try it yet!
5-16-2013_057.jpg

Clopton Bridge, Stratford-Upon-Avon, Christmas Illuminations. (probably around Christmas 1993-ish)

5-10-2013_327.jpg

I'm not sure if the bottom one was 'straight' & the cross bleeding just from mist diffusion or whether I used a four-star on it!
(Note; in top shot, the same car under every street-lamp! Long exposure didn't quite blur out the traffic! Exposure was long enough to flatten the water, but the lamp-posts, as the car came into each pool, acted almost like a flash, giving enough light in the brief moment in the pools strongest center to actually freeze the motion!)
Bit of fun.
Effect gets stronger with tighter apertures I think, and it works best in high-contrast situations; rest of that film had a load of test shots on it, & most of the pics in day-light were just naff, with no obvious highlight bleeding... they just looked soft and orrible. ee-are:
3-22-2013_053.jpg

I think this was a shot of Menai Straights, probably Easter 1996. No filter ^ Filter V
3-22-2013_054.jpg


Filters could be used to boost or reduce saturation; main use of a polariser, and its what coloured grads were doing on a couarser level, boosting sky or grass or whatever.
 
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Why were you using a star filter during the day with no specular highlights and a small aperture? You can actually see the filaments of the filter.

As for the top two... the filter is the least of your problems I think :) What the hell happened there?
 
Why were you using a star filter during the day with no specular highlights and a small aperture? You can actually see the filaments of the filter.

As for the top two... the filter is the least of your problems I think :) What the hell happened there?

1/ Err... no idea really... It was twenty ruddy years ago! I only came accross them working my way through the neg-archive this week. I Think I saw the 'sparkle' on the wave caps and thought I'd see if the star-burst made them twinkle.... it didn't really, did it?

2/ I stuck an OM 10 on a tripod. I could barely see a thing through the veiwfinder, if I recall, and just let it do its thing on a cable release, to see what the filter did.

Do you reckon if I cropped it down a bit in Photo-shop... maybe played around with the contrast a bit... there's some hidden detail in the shaddows in the bottom one I think.... what d'y'reckon:LOL:
 
Mike, I think putting those shots up sort of proves the point of how lucky we are now with ease of post processing. Not saying I could have done any better at the time with the original shots but at least it would be easy to improve them now (or attempt to).

Okay if you were an absolute expert in the craft you would have got every single shot perfectly as you wanted it straight off but is that even possible with these sorts of shots in the conditions or is part of the craft being able to decide not to bother?
 
It was a "hit rate" thing with film - if you were using 36 exposure rolls, when you started off, a great many were "bin jobs", as you improved the number of those dropped (missed focus, closed eyes,"beat the flash" that sort of thing), so if you were averaging 2 or 3 duff ones per roll you were "getting it right most of the time" - as the examples clearly show, the problem with filters used on negative film is that for most of them they were applied "on the camera", so the original negs have that effect burnt in for life (you can't retrieve a straight image from them)
 
1/ Err... no idea really... It was twenty ruddy years ago!

I've got so many negs round my my Mum's place I never bothered to take away.. I'll have to go and get them.. I'd love to see what horrors await :)


I think the images you posted demonstrates quite nicely how difficult it was to get results from film to the same standard as most people expect from digital. The fact is, even a rank beginner can probably get results better than that (no offence.. I realise these are very old Mike) with a digital camera and post processing. Which was exactly my point pages and pages ago. Shooting film is harder than shooting digital. It required more skill, therefore, technically, it was harder to be a photographer back then than it is now.
 
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Out of interest what would have been done in the "old days" by someone like me?

I take outdoor shots in natural daylight. I get the exposure dead right on a film camera and do the same on a digital camera. In theory both shots are the same but with digital I get the photo on my computer and can make minor tweaks such as highlights, sharpness, add a % or two of black etc,. With film I would have picked it up from Boots and lived with it.
The craft of getting the 'negative' is the same isn't it?
 
Pretty much - the difference lies in the practicalities of what happen after you've got the negative (or digital image) - in the "old days", if you were really keen and had a darkroom you could faff around with exposures, differing grades of printing paper, dodging and burning etc., but certainly for "people" photography using a processor (which most did) you'd bear in mind the processor's price list.......:D

If you wanted an enlargement, a straight "machine print" would perhaps be £10, if you wanted it "cropped" you could probably double the price, and if you wanted "the full service", dodging, burning and cropping, perhaps as much as £50....(Which is one of the big reasons you'd strive to get the whole thing right in the camera)

And I'll dare to repeat what some people can't seem to grasp in these days of "dial in the amount of sharpness" available in pp -sharpness was intrinsic, and pretty much unalterable, you couldn't (easily or practically) over-sharpen things as you can in Photoshop

The big thing in those days was to pick the right film (I loved Reala), and a sympathetic and skilled printer who was good at driving their minilab - you could add simple requests (a bit warm and dense please), and wander off leaving them to do the boring stuff........
 
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Out of interest what would have been done in the "old days" by someone like me?

I take outdoor shots in natural daylight. I get the exposure dead right on a film camera and do the same on a digital camera. In theory both shots are the same but with digital I get the photo on my computer and can make minor tweaks such as highlights, sharpness, add a % or two of black etc,. With film I would have picked it up from Boots and lived with it.
The craft of getting the 'negative' is the same isn't it?

Back then there were Photographers who could Process and print.... and every one else who owned a camera and relied on a corner shop for their results. few of those would have thought themselves photographers.

I do not know what a dead right Exposure is, Unless it is the one that enables you to produce the results you are looking for. It is certainly not measurable, in the sense of Right or Wrong. A scene can be correctly exposed with a wide variation of exposures all producing a chosen but different result.

High street Processors could produce very respectable and acceptable prints, exposed on colour negative film, with variations as wide as four or five stops, and all looking much the same. Photographers who sent in correctly exposed sunsets, rarely got back the results they expected, as all their settings had been neutralised.
 
"as all their settings had been neutralised" - good point, but that's why a sympathetic processor was a great help - I used to use a roll of Fuji 1600 colour film in the church at a wedding, and I asked my processor to "leave it warm" (from the tungsten lighting), because it looked better, and rather suited the "grain like golfballs" look from the film - if I wanted some simple B&W prints from colour negs you'd say, "the background was black", and they'd print accordingly.............

I'd better clarify "minilabs" - many of the the commercial processors used the same machines as the guys on the high street, and usually in each town there were one or two minilabs that specialised in pro work (they'd often stay open late on Fri and Sat for function work). They'd often do run of the mill processing as well to keep the machines running.....
 
"as all their settings had been neutralised" - good point, but that's why a sympathetic processor was a great help - I used to use a roll of Fuji 1600 colour film in the church at a wedding, and I asked my processor to "leave it warm" (from the tungsten lighting), because it looked better, and rather suited the "grain like golfballs" look from the film - if I wanted some simple B&W prints from colour negs you'd say, "the background was black", and they'd print accordingly.............

I'd better clarify "minilabs" - many of the the commercial processors used the same machines as the guys on the high street, and usually in each town there were one or two minilabs that specialised in pro work (they'd often stay open late on Fri and Sat for function work). They'd often do run of the mill processing as well to keep the machines running.....

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of photography:thinking:.

The other night we visited friends, and they produced their wedding album (20 years old). And the photography was exactly what I expected, not the rose tinted view you have of the past.

Largely it was posed very boring group shots. The indoor shots all used flash, there were ugly flash shadows. The B&G recessional was about 3 stops under, but the neg was still capable of a print. My friends could probably tell that print was 'different' but it was acceptable to them;).
There was no emotion or artistry, in fact if they were posted here for critique by someone from a first wedding they'd be panned and told not to bother - they were borderline rubbish. But I reckon they were bang on typical of the time.

The odd thing is my wife's reaction, not 'My god they're awful' but 'that looks almost exactly the same as our album' (13 years ago). It was far from 'wow that's so much better than the digital crap we shoot nowadays' which you seem to keep pushing like some Universal truth.

You might see a load of over processed rubbish, but I'm seeing a largely better standard of photography than was common 20 years ago. Someone said earlier in this thread that they'd found an old competition winning picture from a relative that would never have been considered sharp enough to enter a competition nowadays.
 
The other night we visited friends, and they produced their wedding album (20 years old). And the photography was exactly what I expected, not the rose tinted view you have of the past.

I agree, an awful lot of the work produced 20 or more years ago was sodding awful - boring, posed to the nth degree, and "to a formula", but a lot of modern work is similarly devoid of imagination and artistry too - digital has made it easier for tyros to produce an in-focus and reasonably well exposed image, so you're probably right, there may well be a general increase in physical "quality" overall, but that still doesn't excuse the view held by too many people that camera technique doesn't matter, and it can all be done in pp.....(which is often grossly overdone).

In my time I was considered some kind of dangerous nutter taking 400 pictures at a wedding by many of the "traditional (and dreadfully boring), 25 pics in a yucky Spicer Hallfield Album" merchants - I later found out that photographing more than just the posed shots was called "reportage". No, it wasn't some far-distant perfect time of superb photography - there was a market for dross then too, which is sadly still with us..........
 
The odd thing is my wife's reaction, not 'My god they're awful' but 'that looks almost exactly the same as our album' (13 years ago). It was far from 'wow that's so much better than the digital crap we shoot nowadays' which you seem to keep pushing like some Universal truth.

You might see a load of over processed rubbish, but I'm seeing a largely better standard of photography than was common 20 years ago. Someone said earlier in this thread that they'd found an old competition winning picture from a relative that would never have been considered sharp enough to enter a competition nowadays.

Really? Maybe that's just because there were fewer talented photographers who could work with film. It's easier for photographers with fewer skills to get better results with digital than with film... it's nothing inherent in using film that makes you think this. Isn't that what this thread is about though? Trying to establish if more talent was needed to get the same results using film?

The difference was that because you were limited by a fairly rigid process, anything above and beyond the ordinary... anything "special".... the "wow" factor we all aspire to seemingly had to be created in camera, using skill, technical knowledge and lighting. That was, and still is, a rare commodity. These days, you can (and I'm not saying everyone does this) just arse about until something looks good. The reality is though, it never does look as good as getting it right with lighting and skill. It looks false.

Here's a good example.

8839605216_422d3eb4a9_c.jpg


6x9 Fuji 64T, straight scan... no post processing, except a crop. Shot in 1997 (if there is any EXIF saying otherwise, it's generated by PS and the scanner). A straight print from the tranny would look the same... perhaps slightly more contrasty... but not much.

But what about the colours? Surely this has been processed? yes.. it has.. in camera. It was shot on tungsten balanced film with a 81A on the lens to render the "candles" warmer, it was shot at night, using daylight flash, then some of the flash lights were then gelled with 85C to warm them up to render warmer on the tungsten balanced film, and the area lights are filtered with 81A to go cooler, but not as blue as they would have been left unfiltered with Fuji 64T.. the result, I've effectively split toned it using lighting. There are 8 lights and two exposures on the same piece of film in this scene. Two of those lights are massive old school high voltage strobe lights outside the windows on top of a large van parked outside... then a smoke machine was deployed, and the smoke left to dissipate and become even... then the exposure taken. The smoke also lowers contrast as the light is scattered. This is what photographers had to do pre digital... use skills that are becoming lost.

Could this be done digitally? Possibly... would it look as good? Maybe.... would it require as much lighting skill. No. Result... more skill was needed back then than is required now. Isn't that what this thread is trying to establish?

If I was to re-shot this digitally today, I would STILL use such complex lighting because I genuinely feel to try and recreate this digitally would look crap in comparison. The reality is though.... because it's not NECESSARY to learn these skills now... no one bothers to learn them.. so the in camera skills and standards are generally dropping. Only the photographers who truly appreciate that lighting is everything still maintain a working knowledge to these standards... the majority would not as they deem it unnecessary. Everyone else does a great deal of this in post, and with architectural shots... big spaces etc.... that just looks like hell unless you have the lighting place to complement it.


So yeah.... you could do something similar without all that lighting and rely on PP instead... but I firmly believe it wouldn't be as good (either on film or captured digitally). If anyone disagrees.... then go and prove me wrong... Painted Hall, Old Royal Naval College, Greenwich. Off you go :)


You may think that standards of photography have increased, but they haven't.. it's just that the ability to achieve a perceptibly higher standard requires less skill... so you see it more frequently, and even cheap and cheerful jobbing wedding shooters can attain a higher standard, easier, and with less skill required than they would have needed 20 or 30 years ago. The RESULT is that more photographs look better more of the time than they used to.... but photographic skill has sod all to do with it.
 
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I agree, an awful lot of the work produced 20 or more years ago was sodding awful - boring, posed to the nth degree, and "to a formula"

Which is what people will be saying about current work twenty years from now.


Steve.
 
Which is what people will be saying about current work twenty years from now.


Steve.

Probably... also, boring, posed to death etc... these aren't anything to do with photographic skill.... these are matters of taste and fashion that changes over time.
 
Really? Maybe that's just because there were fewer talented photographers who could work with film. It's easier for photographers with fewer skills to get better results with digital than with film... it's nothing inherent in using film that makes you think this. Isn't that what this thread is about though? Trying to establish if more talent was needed to get the same results using film?

The difference was that because you were limited by a fairly rigid process, anything above and beyond the ordinary... anything "special".... the "wow" factor we all aspire to seemingly had to be created in camera, using skill, technical knowledge and lighting. That was, and still is, a rare commodity. These days, you can (and I'm not saying everyone does this) just arse about until something looks good. The reality is though, it never does look as good as getting it right with lighting and skill. It looks false.

Here's a good example.

8839605216_422d3eb4a9_c.jpg


6x9 Fuji 64T, straight scan... no post processing, except a crop. Shot in 1997 (if there is any EXIF saying otherwise, it's generated by PS and the scanner). A straight print from the tranny would look the same... perhaps slightly more contrasty... but not much.

But what about the colours? Surely this has been processed? yes.. it has.. in camera. It was shot on tungsten balanced film with a 81A on the lens to render the "candles" warmer, it was shot at night, using daylight flash, then some of the flash lights were then gelled with 85C to warm them up to render warmer on the tungsten balanced film, and the area lights are filtered with 81A to go cooler, but not as blue as they would have been left unfiltered with Fuji 64T.. the result, I've effectively split toned it using lighting. There are 8 lights and two exposures on the same piece of film in this scene. Two of those lights are massive old school high voltage strobe lights outside the windows on top of a large van parked outside... then a smoke machine was deployed, and the smoke left to dissipate and become even... then the exposure taken. The smoke also lowers contrast as the light is scattered. This is what photographers had to do pre digital... use skills that are becoming lost.

Could this be done digitally? Possibly... would it look as good? Maybe.... would it require as much lighting skill. No. Result... more skill was needed back then than is required now. Isn't that what this thread is trying to establish?

If I was to re-shot this digitally today, I would STILL use such complex lighting because I genuinely feel to try and recreate this digitally would look crap in comparison. The reality is though.... because it's not NECESSARY to learn these skills now... no one bothers to learn them.. so the in camera skills and standards are generally dropping. Only the photographers who truly appreciate that lighting is everything still maintain a working knowledge to these standards... the majority would not as they deem it unnecessary. Everyone else does a great deal of this in post, and with architectural shots... big spaces etc.... that just looks like hell unless you have the lighting place to complement it.


So yeah.... you could do something similar without all that lighting and rely on PP instead... but I firmly believe it wouldn't be as good (either on film or captured digitally). If anyone disagrees.... then go and prove me wrong... Painted Hall, Old Royal Naval College, Greenwich. Off you go :)


You may think that standards of photography have increased, but they haven't.. it's just that the ability to achieve a perceptibly higher standard requires less skill... so you see it more frequently, and even cheap and cheerful jobbing wedding shooters can attain a higher standard, easier, and with less skill required than they would have needed 20 or 30 years ago. The RESULT is that more photographs look better more of the time than they used to.... but photographic skill has sod all to do with it.

David.

That is simply stunning...and thanks for sharing the detail on how it was created. I can only dream of achieving something like this, but it makes me happy just looking at what can be done with film that can compete with digital.

The POTY competition on the forum has both film and digital entries pitted against each other, and this month is landscape so will be interesting to see how they compare for a genre where I consider (maybe wrongly) that film may still have the edge over digital.
 
David.

That is simply stunning...and thanks for sharing the detail on how it was created. I can only dream of achieving something like this, but it makes me happy just looking at what can be done with film that can compete with digital.

The POTY competition on the forum has both film and digital entries pitted against each other, and this month is landscape so will be interesting to see how they compare for a genre where I consider (maybe wrongly) that film may still have the edge over digital.

Cheers :)

I actually did shoot something for "values" on film, but never managed to get it scanned in time, as work pressure is immense this year. I think the shot is in my gallery on here... I think.. I just tend to dump stuff in there rather randomly.


I'm not sure it's fair to say that film has an edge over digital. In practical terms it hasn't as so much more work has to go into the capture stage.


There is an error in that painted hall shot that gives the game away though... that this wasn't shot during the day... I doubt anyone would spot it unless pointed out, but the angles of the two shafts of light through the windows are different. If it was sunlight they'd be the same... :( I couldn't get the second strobe high enough. Oh well... nothing is ever perfect I suppose.
 
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Taking that photo digitally would surely be the same as taking it the way it was with film years ago.
Adding the lighting effects through post processing could be attempted now. However there's no reason why someone would need to take the photo any differently just because they're using a digital camera. Having a digital camera doesn't mean that everything needs to be done on post processing.
There are still companies specialising in lighting supplies so they must be selling to someone and I doubt it's only people with film cameras.
 
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Taking that photo digitally would surely be the same as taking it the way it was with film years ago.


Correct... but few would go to the lengths to achieve it in camera, as it would be possible to create the effects used in that shot digitally. The results would not be as good, but in this age of "good enough" it would be.... well.. good enough. The fact is the skills to get it in recorded on a piece of film are becoming rare. If it CAN be done on a computer, it will be, regardless of whether it's better, faster, or not. Skills are shifting from photographic skills, to digital imaging skills.

Photographers these days have less photographic skill, and more digital imaging skills.
 
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Photographers these days have less photographic skill, and more digital imaging skills.

Exactly, the craft has shifted but there is still a craft. The craft is easier because technology generally makes things easier.
 
Really? Maybe that's just because there were fewer talented photographers who could work with film. It's easier for photographers with fewer skills to get better results with digital than with film... it's nothing inherent in using film that makes you think this. Isn't that what this thread is about though? Trying to establish if more talent was needed to get the same results using film?

its either that or its equally possibly that because digital is more accessible, there are more people prepared to work with it as a medium

The difference was that because you were limited by a fairly rigid process, anything above and beyond the ordinary... anything "special".... the "wow" factor we all aspire to seemingly had to be created in camera, using skill, technical knowledge and lighting. That was, and still is, a rare commodity. These days, you can (and I'm not saying everyone does this) just arse about until something looks good. The reality is though, it never does look as good as getting it right with lighting and skill. It looks false.


agreed, but it takes just a much skill to light a photo with digital as it does with film.

As a simple case in point what would you do differently to short light a portrait on film you wouldn't do on digital, or how would you do it differently.


Here's a good example.

8839605216_422d3eb4a9_c.jpg


6x9 Fuji 64T, straight scan... no post processing, except a crop. Shot in 1997 (if there is any EXIF saying otherwise, it's generated by PS and the scanner). A straight print from the tranny would look the same... perhaps slightly more contrasty... but not much.

But what about the colours? Surely this has been processed? yes.. it has.. in camera. It was shot on tungsten balanced film with a 81A on the lens to render the "candles" warmer, it was shot at night, using daylight flash, then some of the flash lights were then gelled with 85C to warm them up to render warmer on the tungsten balanced film, and the area lights are filtered with 81A to go cooler, but not as blue as they would have been left unfiltered with Fuji 64T.. the result, I've effectively split toned it using lighting. There are 8 lights and two exposures on the same piece of film in this scene. Two of those lights are massive old school high voltage strobe lights outside the windows on top of a large van parked outside... then a smoke machine was deployed, and the smoke left to dissipate and become even... then the exposure taken. The smoke also lowers contrast as the light is scattered. This is what photographers had to do pre digital... use skills that are becoming lost.

Could this be done digitally? Possibly... would it look as good? Maybe.... would it require as much lighting skill. No. Result... more skill was needed back then than is required now. Isn't that what this thread is trying to establish?

If I was to re-shot this digitally today, I would STILL use such complex lighting because I genuinely feel to try and recreate this digitally would look crap in comparison. The reality is though.... because it's not NECESSARY to learn these skills now... no one bothers to learn them.. so the in camera skills and standards are generally dropping. Only the photographers who truly appreciate that lighting is everything still maintain a working knowledge to these standards... the majority would not as they deem it unnecessary. Everyone else does a great deal of this in post, and with architectural shots... big spaces etc.... that just looks like hell unless you have the lighting place to complement it.


So yeah.... you could do something similar without all that lighting and rely on PP instead... but I firmly believe it wouldn't be as good (either on film or captured digitally). If anyone disagrees.... then go and prove me wrong... Painted Hall, Old Royal Naval College, Greenwich. Off you go :)

I was there Friday. I didn't have the benefit of a smoke machine, or high voltage strobes. But saying the knowledge to light that building has disappeared is wrong. I'll share the wedding after the couple have seen it.

You may think that standards of photography have increased, but they haven't.. it's just that the ability to achieve a perceptibly higher standard requires less skill... so you see it more frequently, and even cheap and cheerful jobbing wedding shooters can attain a higher standard, easier, and with less skill required than they would have needed 20 or 30 years ago. The RESULT is that more photographs look better more of the time than they used to.... but photographic skill has sod all to do with it.

Which is an interesting opinion. I'm not going to argue the skillset needed from a photographer has changed, but a shabbily lit photo is still shabbily lit, and as you often demonstrate incorrectly exposed photos look, well **** recovered in PP.
 
Photographers these days have less photographic skill, and more digital imaging skills.
I dont know thats so true.
Sort of setting skill and the lengths you went to to light that scene, were rare even when pictures were made on film.
Why would you expect them to become more common?
There are more photographers, persuing more elaborate photography, in digital, and an awful lot more practicing post-process.
Doesn't mean that there are fewer practisioners, or that of the practicioners there are, fewer of them are aquiring and demonstrating such elevated dexterity.
Facts are:
1/ Digital has opened up photography to more practisioners
2/ Digital has offered easier access to a wider range of imaging tools
3/ The 'Aceptable Quality Level' of a main-stream image has changed, and 'average' photo's are a lot better, these days.

You cant say in one breath, that you agree that in the film era, what won awards and accolades as a 'great' photo wouldn't even get past entry short-list now; then say that now, 'good enough' is showing a slip in standards!

I think I know what you mean; at the avante guarde; it took a lot more to get a 'great' picture, when the medium was chemical & mechanical; and what was 'acceptable' was at a lot lower standard. (110 Instamatics!) What is now the 'acceptable' standard is a lot higher, but to explore the avante guarde and pushing the boundaries, fewer are prepared to put in the effort that was needed in the film era, and expect to do it all, in Digital Post-Process, utilising the possible easements of autamation, rather than first principles.
 
what was 'acceptable' was at a lot lower standard. (110 Instamatics!) What is now the 'acceptable' standard is a lot higher

For some people a crappy picture taken with a tiny lens of dubious quality using a phone is acceptable. The 110 cameras were better than this.


Steve.
 
For some people a crappy picture taken with a tiny lens of dubious quality using a phone is acceptable. The 110 cameras were better than this.Steve.
Err... rather subjective.
2-20-2013_063.jpg

110 Instamatic Snap; taken in pretty favourable conditions, and some-one has managed to remember to keep thier finger from infront of the lens on this one!
I have for some-reason a whole box of 110 Negs from gawd knows where, I'm scanning to try and figure out what's on them. THIS is actually untypically 'good'.
ShnkSno.jpg

Pic my daughter took in the rather less favourable conditions of the snow, earlier this year, with a camera-phone.
Have to say that I was surprised by some of the 110 negs; IF they were lucky and in good light, they were a lot better than faded Truprint prints in a 30 year old album or reputation suggests. BUT, I reckon that even a low quality no or low IQ lens camera phone or cheap digi-compat is doing the same job, delivering equal or better IQ and doing it more reliably accross a wider range of circumstances.
 
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