The virus. PPE. Part 1

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nilagin said:
Yes I am serious. You just lack the imagination and versatility to get the job done.
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If you genuinely believe that then you truly are naive of the facts and the skills required to care for adult intensive care patients. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Donnie said:
If you genuinely believe that then you truly are naive of the facts and the skills required to care for adult intensive care patients. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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No, instead of just instantly thinking something can't be done, I look for ways it can be done, you ought to try it some time.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Im sure It requires extensive training and knowledge to be an ICU nurse, not imagination and versatility.
Knowing how to work a ventilator won't make them an ICU nurse.
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And knowing how to be a ventilator operator doesn't mean you have to be an ICU nurse. If the manufacturers are providing the training, do you think it will be ICU nurses providing the training?
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Im sure It requires extensive training and knowledge to be an ICU nurse, not imagination and versatility.
Knowing how to work a ventilator won't make them an ICU nurse.
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inserting and stabalising I wouldn’t want to think about.

monitoring and recording obs and summoning someone if symptoms go outside certain parameters i suspect is more do-able.
 
nilagin said:
No, instead of just instantly thinking something can't be done, I look for ways it can be done, you ought to try it some time.
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I don't know why you revert to your usual p***y sniping at people who have more knowledge than you on a subject instead of trying to discuss an issue.
But again it just shows your naivety of what is required in caring for ventilated patients. :rolleyes:
 
Donnie said:
I cannot see how as influenza and coronavirus's are completely different?
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That’s because you don’t have a twisted mind like the ant-vaxxers :) (and maybe me :()
 
Marc said:
Imagine a thread about Ford engines where a nurse posts and tells Neil that he's wrong. ;)
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Imagine having spent over 40yrs finding solutions to problems and putting it into action rather than just wearing blinkers and thinking it can't be done.
Just like the ventilators in America now being adapted to work on 4 patients at a time, rather than just one.
 
Mozthecat said:
inserting and stabalising I wouldn’t want to think about.

monitoring and recording obs and summoning someone if symptoms go outside certain parameters i suspect is more do-able.
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Unfortunately not and the your very words "if symptoms go outside certain parameters" show your lack of knowledge on how ventilators fit in the care of a ventilated patient as ventilators don't show symptoms for a start.
 
nilagin said:
Imagine having spent over 40yrs finding solutions to problems and putting it into action rather than just wearing blinkers and thinking it can't be done.
Just like the ventilators in America now being adapted to work on 4 patients at a time, rather than just one.
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Which have severe limitations and been shown won't work for any length of time as CO2 builds up in the bloodstream causing a severe respiratory acidosis eventually killing the patient. I posted that link about 50 pages ago.
 
Donnie said:
I don't know why you revert to your usual p***y sniping at people who have more knowledge than you on a subject instead of trying to discuss an issue.
But again it just shows your naivety of what is required in caring for ventilated patients. :rolleyes:
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No I just don't take a blinkered view on everything. I am open minded and look for solutions. Some people are just unwilling to recognise there is more than one way of looking or doing things.
 
nilagin said:
No I just don't take a blinkered view on everything. I am open minded and look for solutions. Some people are just unwilling to recognise there is more than one way of looking or doing things.
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And some people have experience in the field and actually know what they are talking about.
 
nilagin said:
Imagine having spent over 40yrs finding solutions to problems and putting it into action rather than just wearing blinkers and thinking it can't be done.
Just like the ventilators in America now being adapted to work on 4 patients at a time, rather than just one.
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Over 40 years finding solutions to vehicular problems. Not quite the same thing, is it? If someone with actual knowledge of something about which you have no knowledge tells you why your "solution" isn't applicable, it's bloody stupid to tell them they're wrong!
 
nilagin said:
No I just don't take a blinkered view on everything. I am open minded and look for solutions. Some people are just unwilling to recognise there is more than one way of looking or doing things.
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That’s a good thing, and I posted about 50 pages ago that the call for ventilators may spark some novel ideas but the “inventors” have be to open to feedback from the prospective ”users” and that’s what good designers usually do, but it all takes time :(
 
Donnie said:
I don't know why you revert to your usual p***y sniping at people who have more knowledge than you on a subject instead of trying to discuss an issue.
But again it just shows your naivety of what is required in caring for ventilated patients. :rolleyes:
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Donnie with all due respect I am sure you are very knowledgeable in what you do but these are extreme conditions and maybe a new approach is what is required. Thousands of people are dying using traditional well documented so far successful procedures in normal circumstances BUT that's not working for a lot of these patients in this new paradigm. Given there's little to lose by trying a different method then perhaps a little wider thinking is what's required?
As was once said by a leading light in Industry "if you carry on doing the same thing you'll keep getting the same results" and clearly these aren't the results we (or I know you) want or need.
I have no doubt whatsoever that all of the NHS are trying their utmost to preserve life but it's not working for so many, no-one's blaming the NHS (on these threads) but maybe the times coming for a new approach?
 
Cummings in isolation with CV symptoms:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lates-after-experiencing-coronavirus-symptoms

Edit to add: I don’t usually never have a good word for Cummings but I suspect he is responsible for the “Socially distance to Save the NHS” slogan which HMG is putting out instead of “ ... save yourselves“ which I think is really smart and about the only thing HMG has done right.
 
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Marc said:
Over 40 years finding solutions to vehicular problems. Not quite the same thing, is it? If someone with actual knowledge of something about which you have no knowledge tells you why your "solution" isn't applicable, it's bloody stupid to tell them they're wrong!
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It doesn't have to be vehicular, the process can be applied to anything. A few years ago I was working with an engine calibration engineer, he left to work in his local hospital to take care of their equipment.
Look at my links earlier listing all the car companies and formula one teams being enlisted to manufacture ventilators, whether it is reverse engineer existing ventilators or design new ones.
 
nilagin said:
It doesn't have to be vehicular, the process can be applied to anything. A few years ago I was working with an engine calibration engineer, he left to work in his local hospital to take care of their equipment.
Look at my links earlier listing all the car companies and formula one teams being enlisted to manufacture ventilators, whether it is reverse engineer existing ventilators or design new ones.
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You're talking about the manufacture, @Donnie is talking about the use. I'm sure most manufacturers can make a scalpel, I wouldn't want to let them loose in an operating theatre.
 
MatBin said:
Donnie with all due respect I am sure you are very knowledgeable in what you do but these are extreme conditions and maybe a new approach is what is required. Thousands of people are dying using traditional well documented so far successful procedures in normal circumstances BUT that's not working for a lot of these patients in this new paradigm. Given there's little to lose by trying a different method then perhaps a little wider thinking is what's required?
As was once said by a leading light in Industry "if you carry on doing the same thing you'll keep getting the same results" and clearly these aren't the results we (or I know you) want or need.
I have no doubt whatsoever that all of the NHS are trying their utmost to preserve life but it's not working for so many, no-one's blaming the NHS (on these threads) but maybe the times coming for a new approach?
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There is no new approach but theres a massive lack of understanding of caring for acutely ill intensive care patients for sure.

Look, it's very simple, if you want a new approach then you are basically asking people that are not trained to care for these patients to do so.
That is not only stupid, it is downright dangerous and lead to deaths through negligence. Doctors know it, nurses know it, physios know it, anyone in healthcare knows it.

However people will continue to cut corners and it will all be justified under the "alternative is death" mantra.
 
sphexx said:
That’s a good thing, and I posted about 50 pages ago that the call for ventilators may spark some novel ideas but the “inventors” have be to open to feedback from the prospective ”users” and that’s what good designers usually do, but it all takes time :(
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Exactly so whilst some companies are reverse engineering existing ventilators, others can be working on new designs. 3d rapid printing and simulators can reduce development time, which is why the companies say they will have products ready for review in the next week or two.
 
nilagin said:
It doesn't have to be vehicular, the process can be applied to anything. A few years ago I was working with an engine calibration engineer, he left to work in his local hospital to take care of their equipment.
Look at my links earlier listing all the car companies and formula one teams being enlisted to manufacture ventilators, whether it is reverse engineer existing ventilators or design new ones.
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But nobody’s saying this isn’t a good thing. The problem is that it may or may not produce results but either way it won’t be magically quick and then what happens is that the Media pick it up and it becomes a headline like “R* lls-R*yce to make zillions of ventilators”. Note the use of to there which appears in zillions of headlines and which sounds immediate but actually means “some time in the future ... maybe”.
 
Marc said:
You're talking about the manufacture, @Donnie is talking about the use. I'm sure most manufacturers can make a scalpel, I wouldn't want to let them loose in an operating theatre.
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I'm not talking about the manufacture at all, it was you that brought in the subject of cars. I am talking about the ability to find solutions to problems. Something that is applicable to more than just the field you work in.
 
nilagin said:
I'm not talking about the manufacture at all, it was you that brought in the subject of cars. I am talking about the ability to find solutions to problems. Something that is applicable to more than just the field you work in.
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This was what I replied to

nilagin said:
Look at my links earlier listing all the car companies and formula one teams being enlisted to manufacture ventilators, whether it is reverse engineer existing ventilators or design new ones.
Click to expand...
 
sphexx said:
But nobody’s saying this isn’t a good thing. The problem is that it may or may not produce results but either way it won’t be magically quick and then what happens is that the Media pick it up and it becomes a headline like “R* lls-R*yce to make zillions of ventilators”. Note the use of to there which appears in zillions of headlines and which sounds immediate but actually means “some time in the future ... maybe”.
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If you actually read my links, you will see that the car manufacturers have been brought in to also help existing ventilator manufacturers step up their production because they are more accustomed to producing things in high volume. One ventilator company said it will increase their current production of 100's per month to 1000's per month. They won't just be building for the UK but to supply other countries too.
Dyson has said that he will be producing 15k ventilators, 10k the government has ordered, he is donating 1k more to the NHS, paid for out of his own pocket and the rest will be sold to other countries
 
Donnie said:
There is no new approach but theres a massive lack of understanding of caring for acutely ill intensive care patients for sure.

Look, it's very simple, if you want a new approach then you are basically asking people that are not trained to care for these patients to do so.
That is not only stupid, it is downright dangerous and lead to deaths through negligence. Doctors know it, nurses know it, physios know it, anyone in healthcare knows it.

However people will continue to cut corners and it will all be justified under the "alternative is death" mantra.
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I didn't write that you should ask untrained people to care for the ill, just a new approach to HOW you care for them MIGHT be an idea.
I'm sorry I guess we'll never agree that sometimes a different course is required.
Maybe the fear of failure is so engrained in medical practices that true visionaries (like Christian Barnard) are very rare creatures and our new World Order of litigation stifles progress.
 
This is somewhat OT but for a bit of light relief.

Earlier we were discussing HMG’s Boris’ letter to everyone and whether everyone has a mailing address. I have up to 3 in some databases for the same house. My house was an ’infill’ so had a name long before it got a number (then it got a postcode which was later changed to a completely different one :)), thusly:
HouseName, Street, etc
House Name, Street, etc
HouseName, NumberLetter Street, etc
House Name, NumberLetter Street, etc
NumberLetter Street, etc

Sometimes at least 2 appear in the same database! An additional complication is the NumberLetter is 7c and this gets changed to 7C which then gets changed (and sometimes misread to 70 and occasionally to Seven Seas (presumably from a voice call). :).
 
Marc said:
This was what I replied to
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But you quoted my whole post which was a reply to yours that because my problem solving experience is in a vehicular field. My answer proves that people working in one field are just as capable of finding solutions in other fields.
 
nilagin said:
But you quoted my whole post which was a reply to yours that because my problem solving experience is in a vehicular field. My answer proves that people working in one field are just as capable of finding solutions in other fields.
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And I never said otherwise
 
Marc said:
And I never said otherwise
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Really?

Marc said:
Over 40 years finding solutions to vehicular problems. Not quite the same thing, is it? If someone with actual knowledge of something about which you have no knowledge tells you why your "solution" isn't applicable, it's bloody stupid to tell them they're wrong!
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MatBin said:
I didn't write that you should ask untrained people to care for the ill, just a new approach to HOW you care for them MIGHT be an idea.
I'm sorry I guess we'll never agree that sometimes a different course is required.
Maybe the fear of failure is so engrained in medical practices that true visionaries (like Christian Barnard) are very rare creatures and our new World Order of litigation stifles progress.
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Great advances are rare because novel ideas are more likely to kill the patient than cure them (as I think Christian Barnard’s did initially?) — it’s rather like mutations, a tiny number are good but most are harmful/fatal :(.
 
nilagin said:
Really?
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Yes, really. What you quoted doesn't say that people from other areas can't come up with solutions, just that, when someone with knowledge and experience in that particular field says that YOUR solution won't work, it's pointless to keep pushing the same solution
 
JohnC6 said:
Re my question on why some are really hit hard with this virus and others barely know they've got it, that very question was asked by Nicky Campbell ..Five Live, this morning to a doctor and the doctor said they didn't know but a research team in Australia are working on it.

They have a theory that the antibodies generated by previous 'flu viruses actually benefit this new coronavirus and they think that young children aren't succumbing to COVID-19 because they haven't got any 'flu antibodies or, at least, they've only suffered a couple of coronavirus strains whereas adults, especially the elderly have a lifetime of various antibody build up. He cited Dengue fever. An immunity builds up but it won't stop a new strain of it developing , it even makes it worse and we have a new strain of the Corono family.
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Coronaviruses aren't related to influenza viruses, so there's no reason to believe that flu vaccinations would have any impact on the severity of COVID-19. In fact, it's a very good idea to have a flu shot, because you don't want to end up in hospital with flu right now, and because people who have both flu and COVID-19 at the same time apparently do worse.

But humans are commonly infected by other coronaviruses, very distantly related to the virus that causes COVID-19. Four of the many viruses that cause common cold symptoms are coronaviruses. We have probably all been infected by them, and there is no vaccine for any of them. The idea would be that previous infections by these viruses somehow make us more vulnerable to infection by the new coronavirus. Something similar ('antibody dependent enhancement') is seen in dengue virus infections. But the idea it might apply to human coronaviruses is pure speculation at this point. Some people are making almost the opposite argument - that children who are probably being infected by coronaviruses more often than adults are (perhaps for the first time) may have some protection against the new virus. But there may well be simpler explanations for the more severe disease seen in older people. The immune system (especially 'innate immunity' to things the immune system has never encountered before) declines with age. Older people are also more likely to have one or more of the 'existing conditions' that we know make people more vulnerable.

Why some younger people without apparent existing conditions do poorly is not known. Some of them probably have undocumented existing conditions. There may be genetic differences that determine vulnerability to the virus, as there are with some other viruses (e.g., some people are resistant to HIV infection because they have a different form of the 'receptor' protein the virus latches on to). Perhaps environmental factors play a role, or smoking history, or co-infection with other pathogens. We just don't know. It's probably nothing to do with the specific viruses they are infected by. Although these viruses do accumulate mutations over time, so far nobody has found any change that is likely to make the new virus more virulent. A widely reported publication that claimed there are 'S type' and 'L type' strains that differ in virulence has not convinced other virologists.
 
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MatBin said:
I didn't write that you should ask untrained people to care for the ill, just a new approach to HOW you care for them MIGHT be an idea.
I'm sorry I guess we'll never agree that sometimes a different course is required.
Maybe the fear of failure is so engrained in medical practices that true visionaries (like Christian Barnard) are very rare creatures and our new World Order of litigation stifles progress.
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LOL, yeah we're being protective, we're just insecure and pretending things are more complicated than they really are to retain some sense of status.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Intensive care nursing and as a medicine continually develops and has done for decades, but it develops incrementally, there's no massive strides and changes to practice to be seen.
OK, now in a time of crisis, which it very much is (or more accurately is continuing towards) there will be changes when it comes to the rationing of ventilators and it really will be rationing, a process to stop many getting as far as needing or being put on a vent.

For example where normally there would be little restriction on who gets it, now many will be denied itu and instead automatically be put on an end of life pathway, but thats ok because its a crisis.

Properly caring for intensive care patients is not something a nurse can be trained to do in a matter of weeks, anything less than properly trained staff is not caring for them, it's not treating them, it's hoping nothing will go wrong and trusting in blind luck.
 
nilagin said:
If you actually read my links, you will see that the car manufacturers have been brought in to also help existing ventilator manufacturers step up their production because they are more accustomed to producing things in high volume. One ventilator company said it will increase their current production of 100's per month to 1000's per month. They won't just be building for the UK but to supply other countries too.
Dyson has said that he will be producing 15k ventilators, 10k the government has ordered, he is donating 1k more to the NHS, paid for out of his own pocket and the rest will be sold to other countries
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I read your links but my point is that, once again, as Paul @Donnie says, the numbers are as vague as farts (I always though farts were quite emphatic but I bow to his specialist knowledge) . This is sad because I’m really sure there’s no real difference in our views on this particular matter just a failure of dialogue. :(.
 
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