The virus. PPE. Part 1

Status
Not open for further replies.
Cockney said:
The Guardian criticises Tory government shock!
Click to expand...
I'm a Tory and was criticising this weeks ago. Boris really didn't grasp how serious this was and made jokes about taking it on the chin and moving on. He is, in my opinion, partially culpable in this. It's fine to say "science", but when you can see what other countries have done, or are doing, and ignore it it amounts to negligence at best.

Additionally, the containment phase was a joke. Isolate the first plane that came back then let everyone else come in with no quarantine whatsoever. Totally irresponsible.
 
Last edited:
Canon Bob said:
Genuinely the Germans seem to be coping better than most....to the point that they've been accepting transfers from French hospitals to help relieve the strain across the border.
Click to expand...

They are coping at the moment but if they end up like Italy they will not cope. They do spend a lot more per person than us, from memory 5,500 compared to 3,700 a year.
 
Canon Bob said:
Genuinely the Germans seem to be coping better than most....to the point that they've been accepting transfers from French hospitals to help relieve the strain across the border.
Click to expand...
Well, I’ve long argued half-seriously that we should get Germany in to run our education system and now it seems the nhs may be a candidate too for germanification. Actually, why not get them in to run the government :). British Army & Trade Unions did a fine job of running Germany after 1945, Now’s the time for a re-run :).
 
sphexx said:
Well, I’ve long argued half-seriously that we should get Germany in to run our education system and now it seems the nhs may be a candidate too for germanification. Actually, why not get them in to run the government :). British Army & Trade Unions did a fine job of running Germany after 1945, Now’s the time for a re-run :).
Click to expand...
Why not join the EU, and let them run everything.....oh wait...:)
 
cambsno said:
Of course we could always do things better with hindsight, and this is still ongoing, but we seem to be faring better than France, Spain and Italy so far if thats not tempting fate?
Click to expand...
I think it's a mistake to assume we are doing better than other countries because there are fewer deaths on a specific date. The national epidemics aren't synchronised. Early chance events and initially small undetected chains of community transmission can have large impacts on the scale of an exponentially growing outbreak at a given time point, but without effective suppression the peak of the epidemic may be equally high, just delayed by a week or two. The current trajectory of the UK epidemic is similar to those in Italy, Spain and France. We brought in no significant public health measures until a few days ago, and they are weaker than in some countries where the death toll is currently worse. Public transport is still overcrowded in London, the city at the centre of the UK epidemic.
 
dod said:
I'm a Tory and was criticising this weeks ago. Boris really didn't grasp how serious this was and made jokes about taking it on the chin and moving on. He is, in my opinion, partially culpable in this. It's fine to say "science", but when you can see what other countries have done, or are doing, and ignore it it amounts to negligence at best.

Additionally, the containment phase was a joke. Isolate the first plane that came back then let everyone else come in with no quarantine whatsoever. Totally irresponsible.
Click to expand...
Strange how people hear the same think and take different things from it. I distinctly remember the first conference where they laid out the different stages and said things would change rapidly and the timing was everything. It seems to me they've stuck to that so far.
I voted Tory but I'm not a massive fan. I think they've (so far) kept it on the NHS coping borderline, which was the plan.
It was never going to run smoothly and people were always going to be killed by it.
Whatever strategy was taken people would have still stood on the sidelines and thrown rocks. Whoever was in power.
 
Retune said:
I think it's a mistake to assume we are doing better than other countries because there are fewer deaths on a specific date. The national epidemics aren't synchronised. Early chance events and initially small undetected chains of community transmission can have large impacts on the scale of an exponentially growing outbreak at a given time point, but without effective suppression the peak of the epidemic may be equally high, just delayed by a week or two. The current trajectory of the UK epidemic is similar to those in Italy, Spain and France. We brought in no significant public health measures until a few days ago, and they are weaker than in some countries where the death toll is currently worse. Public transport is still overcrowded in London, the city at the centre of the UK epidemic.
Click to expand...

I am not saying we are definately doing better, just saying now is not the time to blame governments for getting it wrong when we dont know the end outcome. Nor is it time to say Germany are getting things right. As I said earlier, we need to evaluate in a few months time, while also taking into account things like average ages, transmission ages, social factors etc...rather than just look at death rates.

Easy solution to the London problem, allow people to park on double yellows/free for the next few weeks to lift the burden (as long as not blocking roads, dangerous parking etc...) roads I am sure are quieter so can cope?
 
Cockney said:
Strange how people hear the same think and take different things from it. I distinctly remember the first conference where they laid out the different stages and said things would change rapidly and the timing was everything. It seems to me they've stuck to that so far.
I voted Tory but I'm not a massive fan. I think they've (so far) kept it on the NHS coping borderline, which was the plan.
It was never going to run smoothly and people were always going to be killed by it.
Whatever strategy was taken people would have still stood on the sidelines and thrown rocks. Whoever was in power.
Click to expand...

Agree, and I dont think any country has locked stuff down on day 1. Of course the government will get things wrong, everyone does, but they have to balance a lot of factors in this, like I posted earlier, we could have put in lots of stuff at the start to maybe keep deaths below 1,000 but at what cost for peoples mental and physical health? Its a balancing act.
 
cambsno said:
I am not saying we are definately doing better, just saying now is not the time to blame governments for getting it wrong when we dont know the end outcome. Nor is it time to say Germany are getting things right. As I said earlier, we need to evaluate in a few months time, while also taking into account things like average ages, transmission ages, social factors etc...rather than just look at death rates.

Easy solution to the London problem, allow people to park on double yellows/free for the next few weeks to lift the burden (as long as not blocking roads, dangerous parking etc...) roads I am sure are quieter so can cope?
Click to expand...

Or just actually lock down non essential jobs. So only keyworkers have to travel, not key workers and anyone who's boss says you can't work from home.
 
cambsno said:
They are coping at the moment but if they end up like Italy they will not cope. They do spend a lot more per person than us, from memory 5,500 compared to 3,700 a year.
Click to expand...
Their mortality rate is quite good when compared to other countries but that might simply be a time lag.
 
Jelster said:
As usual, blame austerity..... One day you'll come up with a different song.
Click to expand...

Eh? I’m not blaming austerity at all and never have. I just shared a link which provides some answers. No need to be so f*****g aggressive.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Or just actually lock down non essential jobs. So only keyworkers have to travel, not key workers and anyone who's boss says you can't work from home.
Click to expand...

Apart from construction workers (and some of those may be key ones) I am trying to think of anyone using the system who isnt a key worker - only shops open are key ones like food stores, most offices I imagine are WFH (if not then they should be) - The only person I know why may not strictly be a key worker and who is going to work is a mate who works in a warehouse but for a company that sells stuff to pharma sector so I guess important!
 
Canon Bob said:
Their mortality rate is quite good when compared to other countries but that might simply be a time lag.
Click to expand...
As I posted, their average infection age rate is a lot lower than Italy so thats a big factor.

It looks like their policies are the virtually same as ours in terms of whats open and going out together.
 
Last edited:
Cockney said:
Strange how people hear the same think and take different things from it. I distinctly remember the first conference where they laid out the different stages and said things would change rapidly and the timing was everything. It seems to me they've stuck to that so far.
I voted Tory but I'm not a massive fan. I think they've (so far) kept it on the NHS coping borderline, which was the plan.
It was never going to run smoothly and people were always going to be killed by it.
Whatever strategy was taken people would have still stood on the sidelines and thrown rocks. Whoever was in power.
Click to expand...


Sorry Brian, fact remains, we dithered for far too long before making any decisions on it. We knew the runaway train was coming, we knew we could'nt stop it, we also did nothing to try and slow it down until it was too late. Our governments timing was very much like the local train times here, running late. IIRC in the first conference we were treated to our (assistant) PM waffling on about 'taking it on the chin' 'flattening the sombrero' and herd immunisation...(all b*****ks by the way) they had no real plan. They have systematically run the NHS to ground, despite warnings from others that should something like CV-19 come along we would be stuffed, but as that was a once in a hundred years dilema to deal with, they thought when it comes I'll be gone. They deserve every rock and boulder thrown at them, they helped create this mess,they can damned well deal with the outfall from it.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Eh? I’m not blaming austerity at all and never have. I just shared a link which provides some answers. No need to be so f*****g aggressive.
Click to expand...


That link keeps repeating that austerity was the main issue in Spain. I still believe it has a lot to do with the fact that multiple generations live together and have very close contact with each other in Southern Europe. And as already pointed out above, the average age of the German person suffering it is a lot younger than in Italy.
 
During the lockdown, you may still need to put fuel in your car. People are advised to make use of the plastic cloves supplied at pumps before handling the pump nozzle, as they can be a very easy way of transmitting the virus. May also be worth having a stash of plastic bags in the car, just incase there are no gloves left on the pump.
It's something we should have always done anyway.
FB_IMG_1585223200757.jpg
 
cambsno said:
I am not saying we are definately doing better, just saying now is not the time to blame governments for getting it wrong when we dont know the end outcome. Nor is it time to say Germany are getting things right. As I said earlier, we need to evaluate in a few months time, while also taking into account things like average ages, transmission ages, social factors etc...rather than just look at death rates.

Easy solution to the London problem, allow people to park on double yellows/free for the next few weeks to lift the burden (as long as not blocking roads, dangerous parking etc...) roads I am sure are quieter so can cope?
Click to expand...

I'm sure there'll be a post mortem in a few months time, but it will be almost literally that - an examination after the deaths have occurred. Decisions (or a lack of decisions) being made right now could cost thousands of lives in the near future. Poor decisions should be criticised (public criticism has already led directly to several positive shifts in government policy).

Lifting parking restrictions may well help in London, though I don't know by how much. Many commuters don't own cars - in normal times, public transport is just more practical here.
 
Jelster said:
That link keeps repeating that austerity was the main issue in Spain. I still believe it has a lot to do with the fact that multiple generations live together and have very close contact with each other in Southern Europe. And as already pointed out above, the average age of the German person suffering it is a lot younger than in Italy.
Click to expand...
They mention it twice, and only once in relation to the spread of the disease. In fact it lays most of the blame on mass gathering such as football, international women's day, political party conferences and the ineptitude of the socialist government . Did you even read the article?
 
Last edited:
It appears that some people either missed or chose to ignore Marcel's warning.
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...e-and-demeanour-towards-other-members.708729/

Let me re-cap for you

Marcel said:
We've had a rise in the number of unpleasant posts directed at other members, and it's not acceptable.

I understand certain topics can be frustrating to discuss and opposing opinions can be difficult to swallow.
That said, we'll be issuing thread bans to those who can't be civil and polite (usually despite multiple requests to do so). There have been enough requests to be polite towards each other so there will be no further warnings.

Now more than ever we need to come together as a community and the mod team won't allow a small number of people to ruin it for everyone.
Click to expand...
 
cambsno said:
As I posted, their average infection age rate is a lot lower than Italy so thats a big factor.
Click to expand...
mex said:
Sorry Brian, fact remains, we dithered for far too long before making any decisions on it. We knew the runaway train was coming, we knew we could'nt stop it, we also did nothing to try and slow it down until it was too late. Our governments timing was very much like the local train times here, running late. IIRC in the first conference we were treated to our (assistant) PM waffling on about 'taking it on the chin' 'flattening the sombrero' and herd immunisation...(all b*****ks by the way) they had no real plan. They have systematically run the NHS to ground, despite warnings from others that should something like CV-19 come along we would be stuffed, but as that was a once in a hundred years dilema to deal with, they thought when it comes I'll be gone. They deserve every rock and boulder thrown at them, they helped create this mess,they can damned well deal with the outfall from it.
Click to expand...

So your saying we should plan for stuff that happens every hundred years?

I don't understand, apart from trying to spread the peak, what else can we do, we cant invent a vaccine in days and we cant blow it up?
 
Unbelievable, not only has the woman who lives on the top floor of our block, dumped a sofa outside the flats thinking the council will come and collect it, but her daughters have just spent the last 10 minutes messing about on the stairs and in the lobby. Fortunately we are on the ground floor so we don't have to touch anything.
 
Be careful comparing different countries case numbers and mortality figures. Unless the testing strategy is identical (it isn't) and the mortality is reported in the same way (it's not) then it is entirely pointless.

Germany for instance, as far as I'm aware, don't officially count a COVID19 death until a full post-mortem has been undertaken. In other countries, if one dies with COVID19 then it is reported, even if they died for another reason but still had it.
 
cambsno said:
So your saying we should plan for stuff that happens every hundred years?

I don't understand, apart from trying to spread the peak, what else can we do, we cant invent a vaccine in days and we cant blow it up?
Click to expand...
But it’s not a hundred years, it’s a regular recent occurrence/threat — SARS, MERS, Ebola & others and theyve been forecast to come due to global trade/travel etc. Governments have just been ignoring the warnings, even from people like Bill Gates that you might think they would listen to if they won’t listen to scientists and others.
You can’t prepare a vaccine/medication for an unknown disease but you can build resilience into hospitals etc and have stockpiles of medical equipment or plans to rapidly produce them.
There are other things to do with the structure of government and society that could have been done. These things aren't just of use for a pandemic but also other disasters, floods, wars, tsunamis (yes U.K. has had tsunamis and others are possible but unlikely I hope :)). :(.
 
cambsno said:
So your saying we should plan for stuff that happens every hundred years?
Click to expand...
There is a middle road. 50 years ago we'd have risen to this challenge swiftly and smoothly because the fear of a nuclear exchange meant that government was always planning for and preparing for the very worst.

The failure of the Soviet Union was misinterpreted as the end of doubt and everyone started talking about the "Peace Dividend". The events at the Twin Towers revealed how silly that was and how even we in the "advanced" west needed to keep our guard up. We didn't.

Instead we saw the rise of our home grown extremists over the last 40 years. In Britain we have the Corbynistas on one side and the illegitimate descendents of the monetarists on the other. Each group exists in an echo chamber; neither is prepared to negotiate with other groups even within their own parties; both groups are demonstrably out of touch with reality.

Against such a background it was always certain that whichever faction was in power would be preparing for the next fight with the other instead of performing their primary function: protecting the people of Britain. As a writer in the New York times has just pointed out: Boris Johnson has been rehearsing to play Falstaff when he should have been preparing for a performance of Henry V !
 
yes mistakes have been made . But very few people realised how fast this would spread I believe very near the start of this thread I remarked it was spreading like lightning and got the usual disparaging remarks .. looking out over my town now it’s like a scene from a disaster movie virtually nothing moving . The worst is yet to come I fear ,we the mighty have been brought down to earth by something to small to see with the naked eye .
 
Cockney said:
Strange how people hear the same think and take different things from it. I distinctly remember the first conference where they laid out the different stages and said things would change rapidly and the timing was everything. It seems to me they've stuck to that so far.
I voted Tory but I'm not a massive fan. I think they've (so far) kept it on the NHS coping borderline, which was the plan.
It was never going to run smoothly and people were always going to be killed by it.
Whatever strategy was taken people would have still stood on the sidelines and thrown rocks. Whoever was in power.
Click to expand...
No doubt, Brian, but I think Boris has been following public opinion rather than leading it. No surprise there really as it’s what he’s been doing forever. Not really a Churchill eh?
 
sphexx said:
But it’s not a hundred years, it’s a regular recent occurrence/threat — SARS, MERS, Ebola & others and theyve been forecast to come due to global trade/travel etc. Governments have just been ignoring the warnings, even from people like Bill Gates that you might think they would listen to if they won’t listen to scientists and others.
You can’t prepare a vaccine/medication for an unknown disease but you can build resilience into hospitals etc and have stockpiles of medical equipment or plans to rapidly produce them.
There are other things to do with the structure of government and society that could have been done. These things aren't just of use for a pandemic but also other disasters, floods, wars, tsunamis (yes U.K. has had tsunamis and others are possible but unlikely I hope :)). :(.
Click to expand...

But the point it is just politcial scoring to criticise the government seeing as virtually every country has the same health crisis bar Germany (so far) - the thing is that we have not been affected by anything on this scale (since Spanish flu?) - we didnt get ebola or SARS did we?

I dont know of the lifespans of these things but suppose we did stockpile certain equipment, how much cash would we have wasted with stuff that was never used and is now out of date?
 
the black fox said:
yes mistakes have been made . But very few people realised how fast this would spread I believe very near the start of this thread I remarked it was spreading like lightning and got the usual disparaging remarks .. looking out over my town now it’s like a scene from a disaster movie virtually nothing moving . The worst is yet to come I fear ,we the mighty have been brought down to earth by something to small to see with the naked eye .
Click to expand...
Very few wanted to believe how fast it would spread but plenty of people knew otherwise :(.
 
sphexx said:
No doubt, Brian, but I think Boris has been following public opinion rather than leading it. No surprise there really as it’s what he’s been doing forever. Not really a Churchill eh?
Click to expand...

Dont know - I despise Boris but give him a chance. Soon into Churchill's reign there was Dunkirk (good or bad depending on your view) the Battle of Britain where we hung on by a thread and the blitz - not a great start but he won in the end!
 
cambsno said:
But the point it is just politcial scoring to criticise the government seeing as virtually every country has the same health crisis bar Germany (so far) - the thing is that we have not been affected by anything on this scale (since Spanish flu?) - we didnt get ebola or SARS did we?

I dont know of the lifespans of these things but suppose we did stockpile certain equipment, how much cash would we have wasted with stuff that was never used and is now out of date?
Click to expand...
You’re right that every country is in the same position but that’s because they have all been too slow, starting with China but we have to criticise our government not others :(.
You are only looking at the current pandemic but it’s a minor one compared with what might, and very likely will, happen if there’s a virus that spreads as fast as measles and is much more lethal than this one :(.
 
Last edited:
cambsno said:
I dont know of the lifespans of these things but suppose we did stockpile certain equipment, how much cash would we have wasted with stuff that was never used and is now out of date?
Click to expand...
A friend of mine who did 15 years in the army made a very appropriate comment on this some time ago: "We get accused of wasting money on stuff we never use. That's b*ll*cks. It's not what you never use that matters. It's what you haven't got when you need it that kills you" !
 
jakeblu said:
They mention it twice, and only once in relation to the spread of the disease. In fact it lays most of the blame on mass gathering such as football, international women's day, political party conferences and the ineptitude of the socialist government . Did you even read the article?
Click to expand...

Yes, even with my own eyes too......
 
cambsno said:
But the point it is just politcial scoring to criticise the government seeing as virtually every country has the same health crisis bar Germany (so far) - the thing is that we have not been affected by anything on this scale (since Spanish flu?) - we didnt get ebola or SARS did we?
Click to expand...
We had only a handful of SARS cases. Countries that were hit hard learnt the lesson, and have been amongst the most successful in containing COVID-19. We and other European countries could have taken this on board (because there's no way of knowing where the next disease will emerge and spread to), but didn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...of-sars-key-factor-in-response-to-coronavirus
 
nilagin said:
During the lockdown, you may still need to put fuel in your car. People are advised to make use of the plastic cloves supplied at pumps before handling the pump nozzle, as they can be a very easy way of transmitting the virus. May also be worth having a stash of plastic bags in the car, just incase there are no gloves left on the pump.
It's something we should have always done anyway.
View attachment 273011[/QUOTEbefore opening]
That picture should come with a warning before opening
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top