Together in death..Not for the squeamish.

[purpleclouds]

Sorry, could you say that again.

Fracster, I must congratulate you on appeasing me with words! It doesn't happen a lot

There is too much there to respond to individually but it all seems fair and justified

The bit about the kingfisher....it reminded me of Natural World on BBC2 a few weeks ago, where 2 females were fighting each other (trying to drown each other) and a mink shot out of the undergrowth next to them and snatched one of them...nasty indeed.

I can see that whilst it isn't the animals fault as such (in terms of fox, mink etc...they're only living as God intended)..they do need to be controlled to a greater or lesser extent. How much? Well I'm half city boy, half country boy and don't know enough..but as long as there are fair people out there such as yourself, I'll trust it is being done faithfully

 

[Cobra]

Mr Reynard, now foxes are indiscriminate killers, country foxes will kill anything they can, so watch out, urban foxes will do the same.Pet rabbits,cats,small dogs etc etc, it does happen, not reported much yet, but i`m sure Chris will confirm this occurs.

As per a previous post in this thread, Ade \/ \/ \/

Foxes in a hen house or game bird pen don't just kill one and go, they will
kill "most" bury a few, eat a few "bits" and leave.
If they weren't such indescriminent killers then maybe they would be left in peace

Urban foxes are an increasing problem
not only will they raid bins but tear open rabbit and guinea pig pens
and eat "fluffy" or half anyway, and leave the child to find the bits.
This is not meant to shock I have seen this first hand,
your average Joe is quite happy to see or have foxes around until "this type
of thing happens" and thats when the like of Frac or me are called to take care of things
I hope that goes a little way to help you see why "these things" are done

 

[fracster]

Fracster, I must congratulate you on appeasing me with words! It doesn't happen a lot

There is too much there to respond to individually but it all seems fair and justified

The bit about the kingfisher....it reminded me of Natural World on BBC2 a few weeks ago, where 2 females were fighting each other (trying to drown each other) and a mink shot out of the undergrowth next to them and snatched one of them...nasty indeed.

I can see that whilst it isn't the animals fault as such (in terms of fox, mink etc...they're only living as God intended)..they do need to be controlled to a greater or lesser extent. How much? Well I'm half city boy, half country boy and don't know enough..but as long as there are fair people out there such as yourself, I'll trust it is being done faithfully

Jeezus, mission accomplished?

I take no joy from killing foxes, please belive me on that.

I do get a great sense of doing something worthwhile by killing mink.

There are plenty of country sports that I loathe and hate and have nothing to do with.

End of it all, I love British wildlife,and I try to do my best to protect all of it.That may not be apparent to some, but it is correct.

Cheers PurpleClouds, real name being?

 

[purpleclouds]

Well I still don't agree with the killing....but I can see where it all fits in, and how it all works a lot better. Which in turn makes it acceptable...it's a weird feeling!? :nuts:

But there are no bad feelings, put it that way....I can see how much you do love the wildlife and the outdoors, and for the 'bad' deeds there are plenty of 'good' ones too!

Real name being Phil, and yourself Ade as I have read many times before!

 

[Cobra]

I can see that whilst it isn't the animals fault as such (in terms of fox, mink etc...they're only living as God intended)..they do need to be controlled to a greater or lesser extent. How much? Well I'm half city boy, half country boy and don't know enough..but as long as there are fair people out there such as yourself, I'll trust it is being done faithfully

This is not something that us in "wildlife management" actually injoy doing
But it is something that we take pride in, and doing it well.
A quick clean kill, no matter what species is being controlled is the order of the day.

We will also spend quite sometime checking and rechecking sights & equiptmnet, to make sure we hit what /where we intend to hit

Don't forget that we and people like us actually get paid for doing this
if there wasn't a demand from joe public then we would be out of a job

 

[purpleclouds]

Cobra - Indeed, my Grandad used to be a slaughter man..funnily enough we visited some of his old friends today. The abattoir is shutting down on 31st December as something to do with BSE ends...so he was saying good bye (although he retired 4 years ago).

That was something I could never figure...he killed millions (by his own calculation) over his 50 year career, yet he goes out of his way to let moths out of the kitchen claiming 'it has a right to live.'

A quote he once actually used was "I don't like doing it, but someone has to.."

Strange old world!

 

[Cobra]

Cobra - Indeed, my Grandad used to be a slaughter man....he killed millions (by his own calculation) over his 50 year career, yet he goes out of his way to let moths out of the kitchen claiming 'it has a right to live.'
Strange old world!

I'll do the same .............belive it or not

 

[fracster]

Cobra - Indeed, my Grandad used to be a slaughter man..funnily enough we visited some of his old friends today. The abattoir is shutting down on 31st December as something to do with BSE ends...so he was saying good bye (although he retired 4 years ago).

That was something I could never figure...he killed millions (by his own calculation) over his 50 year career, yet he goes out of his way to let moths out of the kitchen claiming 'it has a right to live.'

Strange old world!

I actively let spiders,ladybirds,moths out of the house alive Phil.I don`t kill much stuff at all, I have no interest in shooting pheasants personally, nor hunting anything,I loathe hare coarsing and always have,same with fox hunting with hounds in the old days.

We need to maintain an equalibrium, that is what I try to do mate.

 

[purpleclouds]

I hope you wasn't thinking that I thought you were a cold blooded killing machine!...I just didn't understand why (or at least, understand the wider picture) the killing was necessary that's all

Having a Grandad who did what he did, I became used to the idea people killed for a living many years ago, but never so much on the wildlife end, which is why it is nice to hear from the other side!

 

[GoLotus]

Thanks for the comment on the pic, I took it to post on here,not as an image too shock,I thought it powerful and different enough to make people think.I hope that doesn`t sound arzey,not meant too.

Also, a very enlightened response you have made there, nice to see people thinking about both sides rather than just the one...........

Well now, first things first, thanks for taking the time and trouble to go explaining all that I do believe that all too often in life they we can pick up some very fixed ideas about things without ever knowing the full story. How many times have we read something in the papers or heard a polititian speak and come away thinking that just can't be right, but they/he said it so it must be? Fact is we only ever get told what someone, more often than not, the someone with the biggest voice, wants us to hear - and if that one view point is all we ever get to hear, how can any of us ever be in a position to make our own minds up?

I dare say theres some (many????) out there that can't and won't let themselves be told another view point, but more fool them! You shut your ears, you stop learning. None of us know everything........

Well done for explaining things, its certainly put a few things in perspective. Looking forwards to part 2 - assuming your fingers can take it

 

[purpleclouds]

Amen to that!

 

[susie]

bring on part 2

 

[fracster]

Hell, my wedding speech wasn`t that long.................

I am so glad that people have read and understood,or at least tried to understand, what I posted,thanks for that................

Methinks pt II is irrelevant.

 

[fracster]

Just noticed how popular this thread is, 1500+ views...................

 

[richmond]

I have found this thread both interesting and enlightening. I think the image that started it is very powerful and thought provoking. And has proved, once again, TPers can have a civilised conversation about anything.

I look forward to Fracster's part 2.

 

[GoLotus]

Methinks pt II is irrelevant.

ooooiiiiiiii! nooooooooo

you can't tempt us with it and then whip it away just like that :bang:

 

[mxfun]

The fox died to protect profits



Don't forget peoples livelihoods.A lot of my friends rely on the pheasants for their income and year round employment ,gamekeepers ,ghillies ,beaters .If foxes aren't controlled to an extent ,then they'll run riot ,and kill for fun .GREAT shot ,very powerful. (EX gamekeeper talking you know )

 

[fracster]

That was going to be the main point of Part 2, saved me typing it,so a big.......

 

[Nikon Man]

So much concern about the fox, what about the poor old pheasant then?
It is a well framed shot, if some are offended thats life we can't all be the same.

The fox on a dog lead is an odd concept though.

 

[purpleclouds]

The fox died to protect profits



Don't forget peoples livelihoods.A lot of my friends rely on the pheasants for their income and year round employment ,gamekeepers ,ghillies ,beaters .If foxes aren't controlled to an extent ,then they'll run riot ,and kill for fun .GREAT shot ,very powerful. (EX gamekeeper talking you know )

The profits are peoples livelihoods though.

The profits only come because people take part, if people didn't do game shoots then there wouldn't be a business and your friends would be employed elsewhere...so technically my statement is true

Whether good or bad is for each person to decide individually.

Fracster has pointed out that the management of it all works out (with the added benefits of land management etc), in the same way that nature would work out if man did not intervene, which to me is the important thing

 

[fracster]

Phil, mankind has intervened for too long to make your statement viable.In an ideal British Countryside you would be correct, but we got rid of all the foxes natural predators some while ago.

 

[purpleclouds]

Phil, mankind has intervened for too long to make your statement viable.In an ideal British Countryside you would be correct, but we got rid of all the foxes natural predators some while ago.

I'm very aware of this, but that was the underlying point I was originally putting across. Reintroducing wolves etc isn't going to happen any time soon (although I do remember there being talk of a trial somewhere in Scotland on the cards).

So as I said previously, I accept it died for essentially a positive reason....I was merely replying to mxfun's post with what I said there

 

[fracster]

Aye, re-introducing bears and wolves.....not sure on that one?

PS....been a very civilised "conversation" on an emotive subject so far,I have enjoyed reading others points and opinions........

 

[purpleclouds]

Aye, re-introducing bears and wolves.....not sure on that one?

PS....been a very civilised "conversation" on an emotive subject so far,I have enjoyed reading others points and opinions........

Well I can't see it happening myself personally, although ideally I'd love it to happen. What with being such a small island it'd be incredibly hard to manage.

A BBC story relating to the wolf issue. If you do a Google there are plenty of websites talking about it, I even think there was an article on the RPSB website.

Something to chew over anyway!

 

[Garry Edwards]

Nice shot, as I see it there's no need for photos to look 'pretty' - life isn't!

I don't have any kind of a problem with people who think that foxes are cuddly dogs of a different breed, but we have a smallholding with free range hens, so please excuse me if I take a different view. Personally I'm a great believer in 'live and let live' and if the foxes only killed what they needed to eat I'd be happy, especially as mixamatosis has come back in our area and they need to earn a living - and they serve a very useful purpose keeping the rats down.
The fact of the matter though is that they do need to be controlled, and I believe that shooting is the most effective and most humane method. Control means shooting any fox that offers a clear target to a rifle, or a close clear target to a shotgun. It's impossible to get them all, and totally pointless anyway because the land becomes populated again by neighbouring foxes as soon as it becomes vacant.

People who are against shooting are entitled to their views and I respect them - but if they eat meat bought from a supermarket in one of those nice plastic trays they should be aware that their dinner had a far worse life, and a far worse death than the fox.

 

[purpleclouds]

People who are against shooting are entitled to their views and I respect them - but if they eat meat bought from a supermarket in one of those nice plastic trays they should be aware that their dinner had a far worse life, and a far worse death than the fox.

Precisely why I don't

 

[fracster]

Precisely why I don't

Not even bacon butties?

I can get you some venison for chrimbo if you like.........

 

[purpleclouds]

Not even bacon butties?

I can get you some venison for chrimbo if you like.........

Nope! I prefer a nice healthy breakfast, consisting of cereal and fruit. Vegetarian suggests I don't eat any meat, not just bacon butties.

As I said earlier in the thread...my granddad used to be a slaughter man..I can get anything I'd like should I choose to.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

I think we have to remember that we manipulate nature to our ends for food, profit & for our pleasure as such we are guardians of Mother Nature. Obviously it's not easy to be rational when you've just lost your pet chickens, but the fox is part of nature & just doing that which comes naturally, it's our job to manage the situation better.

It's good to see a picture that provokes this much discussion & even better to see that most people believe that our control of nature should as humane as humanly possible.

 

[purpleclouds]

I think we have to remember that we manipulate nature to our ends for food, profit & for our pleasure as such we are guardians of Mother Nature. Obviously it's not easy to be rational when you've just lost your pet chickens, but the fox is part of nature & just doing that which comes naturally, it's our job to manage the situation better.

It's good to see a picture that provokes this much discussion & even better to see that most people believe that our control of nature should as humane as humanly possible.

Very much a case of who polices the police?

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Very much a case of who polices the police?

Unfortunately there will always be people who will behave inhumanely & bend or break the rules, fox hunters for example:bang: Some will do it because they couldn't care less, fewer because they don't know any better & plenty because they can make a few extra quid!

However it's heartening to read fracster's post & see that he is none of the above.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Very much a case of who polices the police?

It's also fair to point out that Sect. 1 firearms certificates aren't exactly given away with packets of cornflakes. The people who get them have to be of good character, responsible, trained in the proper use of firearms, active members of a shooting club and so on, so are fairly unlikely to be bad shots or to cause unnecessary suffering.

 

[Nev]

So there is some sort of agreement when it comes to the shooting of foxes, including someone whom is a vegetarian. So we do have a balance and feel Fracster has in his way made a point. Besides the Countryside management, the profits that shooting of pheasants make etc; etc The fox is a vermin species as well as a predator and requires controlling, however there are some ways that I don't agree with and there are some that I do.

From my own experience I have had a long evening of digging out dogs having gone to ground during a simple walk through a wood, both the dogs were bitches and were Patterdale terriers, one went down what looked like a rabbit hole, the other followed, no amount of calling down the hole made any difference and all we could hear was snarling and from the older dog baying. I hate it when dogs go down holes, we had to dig for around 4 hours just to get at the dogs, I pulled out the older dog, Molly, but we couldn't see the other, this was because she had hold of the fox by the lower jaw...not funny, the eye teeth of the fox went into her face just below the eyes, lucky she did let go and the size of the fox that bolted was three times the size of her. I had a really sad dog for about three weeks after that encounter, something I will never forget.

The two puppies I had from that bitch I taught never to go down holes, and they didn't, both became chaser and retriever, Megan(was put to sleep in Nov 2007) God bless her was the chaser but Elliot was the retriever and learnt this from the other gun dogs, I cringed when he picked up a duck from some 300 metres from were I was standing but even though he has small legs he managed, and when he dropped it at my feet without a mark on it I was a very proud person.

There is a certain satisfaction from working dogs, I refused being paid for this even though the Gamekeeper was well chuffed with his performance.

Megan on the other had was a chaser, the foxes she flushed was legendary, the last one she chased out was a large dog fox across a field , a gunner shot it dead and she stopped dead in her tracks and looked to me as if to say ' Why? I was enjoying chasing....

Nev
Elliot is my avatar

 

[Nev]

It's also fair to point out that Sect. 1 firearms certificates aren't exactly given away with packets of cornflakes. The people who get them have to be of good character, responsible, trained in the proper use of firearms, active members of a shooting club and so on, so are fairly unlikely to be bad shots or to cause unnecessary suffering.

I agree with that, Firearms 1 certificates are not given out to anyone

Nev

 

[cenz]

A sad photo. Ignorance is bliss. I hope you don't mind, but if people fancy feeling a bit better after seeing this, look here:
...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cenz/5528998/

Gary.

I like the photo but I'm on the side of the fox in this debate - go figure. However, the manner in which the debate has been conducted has been exemplary considering the (usually) entrenched opinions of both sides. Blimey, next thing you know there will be Peace on Earth and Goodwill to All Men and all in time for Christmas. The photo referred to above is mine (it's of a great aunt and her pet fox) and I've added some additional comment on it following this debate, including a link relating to the legality of owning a pet fox (if you want to save yourself a click, it appears to be illegal) which I thought might be of interest to some.

 

[Cobra]

I like the photo but I'm on the side of the fox in this debate - go figure. However, the manner in which the debate has been conducted has been exemplary considering the (usually) entrenched opinions of both sides. Blimey, next thing you know there will be Peace on Earth and Goodwill to All Men and all in time for Christmas. The photo referred to above is mine (it's of a great aunt and her pet fox) and I've added some additional comment on it following this debate, *including a link relating to the legality of owning a pet fox (if you want to save yourself a click, it appears to be illegal) which I thought might be of interest to some.

Yep I have been expecting it to go ballistic but Kudos to everyone that has posted for keeping it "civil" a big & a to all..........
* as per my post #8 in this thread

 

[purpleclouds]

However, the manner in which the debate has been conducted has been exemplary considering the (usually) entrenched opinions of both sides. Blimey, next thing you know there will be Peace on Earth and Goodwill to All Men and all in time for Christmas.

We are taking the Arabs and Israelis out to the zoo next week

 

[purpleclouds]

Megan on the other had was a chaser, the foxes she flushed was legendary, the last one she chased out was a large dog fox across a field , a gunner shot it dead and she stopped dead in her tracks and looked to me as if to say ' Why? I was enjoying chasing....

Nev
Elliot is my avatar

Now that, I believe to be wrong. If it is shot out in the open of it's own according then fair game. If it is flushed then it is immediately being put under stress in an unnatural manor, and did not die a 'happy death.'

 

[fracster]

Now that, I believe to be wrong. If it is shot out in the open of it's own according then fair game. If it is flushed then it is immediately being put under stress in an unnatural manor, and did not die a 'happy death.'

If a fox is shot whilst in an open field sunning itself, it is dead.If a fox is flushed from undergrowth and then shot,it is dead. Same end result,pretty much instant death Phil.Neither of which is "happy" for the fox.

Mr Fox does not get shot of his own accord, believe me on that, they ain`t called "sly" for nothing.

 

[purpleclouds]

If a fox is shot whilst in an open field sunning itself, it is dead.If a fox is flushed from undergrowth and then shot,it is dead. Same end result,pretty much instant death Phil.Neither of which is "happy" for the fox.

Mr Fox does not get shot of his own accord, believe me on that, they ain`t called "sly" for nothing.

I know it's pretty much an instant death....

....but would you like to be chased around by a lion before being shot in the head? Get me, sounding like an extremist now Don't take that seriously, just had to get it in!

It is having to spend the last moments of it's life fleeing, which isn't very 'conservationist' at all.

It's just not very sporting waiting for it to be flushed out of a hole is it?