'Upgrade' to full frame? And which camera?

Jesus christ why can't you just leave it ? You've ruined a thread well done.

Wind yer neck in. I was more than willing to leave it, some time ago. Why did you stick your nose in?


I'm sorry you missed out on a deal, and didn't see the lowest price they had it listed at but can we end it now please?

It was over ages ago mate. I'm more than happy with what I paid, I was just sceptical is all. All I want to know now, is how the discount worked? So that I can exploit such things myself, when and if I want new stuff? Which websites? It's good to know such things. You never know; the OP might find it helpful...
 
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Wind yer neck in. I was more than willing to leave it, some time ago. Why did you stick your nose in?




It was over ages ago mate. I'm more than happy with what I paid, I was just sceptical is all. All I want to know now, is how the discount worked? So that I can exploit such things myself, when and if I want new stuff?
Because it's an open thread that interested me and you've ruined it by being a dick, is that a simple enough explanation ?
 
Because it's an open thread that interested me and you've ruined it by being a dick, is that a simple enough explanation ?

Now who can't leave it? A 'dick'? Classy; real classy. :agree: :ty:
 
Wind yer neck in. I was more than willing to leave it, some time ago. Why did you stick your nose in?




It was over ages ago mate. I'm more than happy with what I paid, I was just sceptical is all. All I want to know now, is how the discount worked? So that I can exploit such things myself, when and if I want new stuff? Which websites? It's good to know such things. You never know; the OP might find it helpful...
It was a Grays own discount code (y)
 
It was a Grays own discount code (y)

Blimey. I'd always believed they were strictly beholden to Nikon's pricing policy. They do tend to be one of the most expensive retailers around for Nikon gear, certainly.
 
Wow this thread has developed from the original intention. Nevertheless I’ll come back to some points on the FF vs APS and system choice debates because some really valuable advice has come out again.

Give it a few years mind, and the whole situation might be different. Canon or Nikon may rule the roost by then. Who knows?

This is what I keep thinking in my mind...what if I invest in Sony and a few years down the line the likes of Sigma and Tamron start to invest more towards Canon and Nikon. However, at the same time I assume Sony have made a big mark in the market so will remain competitive for some time to come, even if a Canon and Nikon continue compete well in the mirrorless market.
 
I prefer 24mm at the wide end for sure (y) I effectively get 24-105mm with the A7RIV :LOL:

Buying grey is like buying something on holiday and then not declaring it at customs when you come home. Some companies make it appear that they pay the correct duty but I doubt it as they wouldn't be so cheap otherwise. Some say they have UK depots. You have to decide whether you are happy to buy knowing this, some are some aren't. Hopefully this thread won't derail into another one of 'those' threads ;)

As far as the items themselves they are exactly the same, and come of the same line as any other equipment. Many offer good warranties, some up to 3 years which is far better than you get with UK stock. Panama are known for their excellent customer service and warranty. I've only heard of one bad experience from e-infinity, all the rest have been very happy. The only downside with e-infinity is that turnaround time to fix equipment is longer as I believe the items are sent back overseas after you've sent them to the UK depot, I'm happy to be corrected on this. HDEW are also very reputable and are very good with their warranty claims.

Thanks for the explanation, I didn’t know the details. I had read that grey is where importers don’t distribute via the official means that the brand in that country does, but I wasn’t aware it was illegal (obviously I know evading tax and duties is).
 
Wow this thread has developed from the original intention. Nevertheless I’ll come back to some points on the FF vs APS and system choice debates because some really valuable advice has come out again.



This is what I keep thinking in my mind...what if I invest in Sony and a few years down the line the likes of Sigma and Tamron start to invest more towards Canon and Nikon. However, at the same time I assume Sony have made a big mark in the market so will remain competitive for some time to come, even if a Canon and Nikon continue compete well in the mirrorless market.
It's so easy to go around in circles when making this kind of decision, i've done it myself many times in the past. As others have said there's not really any bad cameras out there these days.

One of the things that swayed me towards Fuji was the speed at which they turn around repairs, not that i've needed one so far but their customer service seems to get great reviews in the UK.
 
Just a small thing about ff v apsc.

I like using old manual film era lenses and I prefer to use them on ff where they give the same fov.

I'm trying to stop now but I do like reading up on old lenses, deciding what to get and looking for a nice one at a good price. I also like comparing very similar lenses from different manufacturers. You can do all this on apsc but not at the original fov.
 
Thanks for the explanation, I didn’t know the details. I had read that grey is where importers don’t distribute via the official means that the brand in that country does, but I wasn’t aware it was illegal (obviously I know evading tax and duties is).
It's only illegal if you evade the tax & duties.
 
This is what I keep thinking in my mind...what if I invest in Sony and a few years down the line the likes of Sigma and Tamron start to invest more towards Canon and Nikon. However, at the same time I assume Sony have made a big mark in the market so will remain competitive for some time to come, even if a Canon and Nikon continue compete well in the mirrorless market.
You can go round and round in circles doing that tbh. Canon very much have the lions share and will likely continue to dominate purely through brand loyalty if nothing else, although they do make some great gear of course. Sony have ben the innovators of late and have learnt a lot of kudos because of that, they also still lead the tech specs most of the time (I'm talking mirrorless market here), but now that Canon are making serious headway into the mirrorless market I can see some of Sony's market share diminishing again. Nikon IMO have been making some of the best DSLRs over the last few years, but have reported significant financial losses and had a massive restructure. Unfortunately they just missed the mark with the Z's and they didn't sell as well as they had hoped. I personally think the Z's are great bodies, and the lenses even better, but the bodies are still behind the competition unfortunately in some key areas. Nikon are still my favourite in terms of colours and final image though. Olympus have been struggling to make ends meet for a while and there's been rumour after rumour about them going under but they still keep bringing out great cameras.

My point is you just don't know what's around the corner, my recommendation is to get what's best for you at the time and try not to worry what may or may not happen in 5 years time etc.
Thanks for the explanation, I didn’t know the details. I had read that grey is where importers don’t distribute via the official means that the brand in that country does, but I wasn’t aware it was illegal (obviously I know evading tax and duties is).
it's a grey area (pun intended ;)) and I don't profess to understand where it falls in terms of law breaking etc. I think it is against the law but I also think that the worst that will happen is that you'd be asked to pay the duties back (disclaimer, this is just my thinking and not gospel in any way shape or form ;))
One of the things that swayed me towards Fuji was the speed at which they turn around repairs, not that i've needed one so far but their customer service seems to get great reviews in the UK.
I've been really impressed with Sony, Olympus and Nikon customer services tbh. Turnaround has been very quick.
 
It's so easy to go around in circles when making this kind of decision, i've done it myself many times in the past. As others have said there's not really any bad cameras out there these days.

One of the things that swayed me towards Fuji was the speed at which they turn around repairs, not that i've needed one so far but their customer service seems to get great reviews in the UK.

Yeah exactly, I do keep going round in circles. If it wasn’t for the lockdown I would’ve tried out the various ones I’m interested in.

Main question I have now is the FF vs APS-C, as I am coming from a 500D which is obviously far behind the A7Rii, A7iii and the Fuji XT-3. Given the mirrorless FF cameras are so light I feel that this would still be ok weight-wise when I’m travelling.

I just know that when I’m taking photos on the 500D I can’t stand the lack of DR and overall sharpness/image quality vs what’s on the market today - it’s not bad but I want to be able to do large prints and have a high quality camera that I can rely on for the years to come to give me the quality I want, especially for travel/holidays. I do enjoy using the 300mm end of my 70-300 for wildlife but it’s very limited use and I’m sure crop mode on a FF will allow me to make uk for any loss in ‘reach’ until I can afford a proper telephoto lens (although I don’t fancy paying £1k for rare or hobbyist personally).

I’m sure APS-C or FF can fill these needs of mine but if I went for APS-C and invested in good glass, then a few years later still long for better quality I’ll switch to FF....too much cost to do it twice. So might as well go FF, right? [emoji3]
 
Only experience i've had of grey was with HDEW. I know it must have come from HK, however I collected from their office in Chessington, got a VAT invoice and saved over £1k on £3k of Olympus gear.

I also got a 3 year warranty and any repairs would have been carried out by an appointed agent in Glasgow who it appears have a good reputation.

When I traded that gear in at Jessops 9 months later I got pretty much bang on what i'd paid and they didn't ask or appear to care where it was bought from.

One thing I have been considering recently is what effect this pandemic will have on the likes of Panamoz and Einfinity. There's quite a lot of anti China feeling around and a lack of cash, will they survive ? Who knows but right now personally I would like to support UK businesses, the golden rule is if you don't ask you don't get. Cameraworld and Jessops have always discounted on their advertised prices when pushed. I think Wex do sometimes but can't speak from experience.
 
My point is you just don't know what's around the corner, my recommendation is to get what's best for you at the time and try not to worry what may or may not happen in 5 years time etc.

You’re absolutely right, thanks (and others) for bringing me up a level - hard to see the bigger picture when looking at so much of the details all the time.

I never ever regretted the setup I bought 10 years ago and once I’ve decided and purchased my gear this time around I’ll only enjoy it for years to come, rather than dwelling on what new stuff is released each year. Ultimately I want this to last for years.
 
One thing I have been considering recently is what effect this pandemic will have on the likes of Panamoz and Einfinity. There's quite a lot of anti China feeling around and a lack of cash, will they survive ? Who knows but right now personally I would like to support UK businesses, the golden rule is if you don't ask you don't get. Cameraworld and Jessops have always discounted on their advertised prices when pushed. I think Wex do sometimes but can't speak from experience.

Me too as if we buy from a UK supplier we keep people like us employed and the tax keeps the NHS and everything going but there are no camera shops near me now and visiting one would mean a day out to the city so all my stuff is bought on line these days or occasionally over the phone. I have bought from the grey importers but usually only when the stuff isn't available in the UK as quickly.

Wex do seem very good, I've spent a lot with them over the years.
 
You’re absolutely right, thanks (and others) for bringing me up a level - hard to see the bigger picture when looking at so much of the details all the time.

I never ever regretted the setup I bought 10 years ago and once I’ve decided and purchased my gear this time around I’ll only enjoy it for years to come, rather than dwelling on what new stuff is released each year. Ultimately I want this to last for years.
Exactly. This forum is a dangerous place as you can easily end up swapping and changing your gear far too regularly, but realistically any modern camera you buy today should last you a lifetime. Yes technology will change, and no doubt taking photos will be more about software than cameras and lenses per se, but realistically modern cameras are good enough to capture anything, and have the IQ to match.
 
You’re absolutely right, thanks (and others) for bringing me up a level - hard to see the bigger picture when looking at so much of the details all the time.

I never ever regretted the setup I bought 10 years ago and once I’ve decided and purchased my gear this time around I’ll only enjoy it for years to come, rather than dwelling on what new stuff is released each year. Ultimately I want this to last for years.

Why do you regard DR as being the defining feature of a camera? Whether you go for apsc or ff you will still have the itch to upgrade... Especially as you invest more and learn more... And spend more time here.
 
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This is what I keep thinking in my mind...what if I invest in Sony and a few years down the line the likes of Sigma and Tamron start to invest more towards Canon and Nikon.

OK, a question to consider: if lens development stopped now, are there all the lenses that you need, or is there something you're waiting for? The existing lenses won't become any worse, and I'm sure Sigma, Tamron, Samyang etc will keep developing lenses for sony for time to come.

I’m sure APS-C or FF can fill these needs of mine but if I went for APS-C and invested in good glass, then a few years later still long for better quality I’ll switch to FF....too much cost to do it twice. So might as well go FF, right?

I'd say the reason to go FF is for the way the pictures look on FF - if they don't look better to you in some way than what can normally be acheived on APS-C then buy crop. A Nikon D500 has amazing dynamic range and AF capability (for a DSLR - no eye-AF here) and Nikon glass isn't shabby if you buy into the pro range.

TBH I'd have digital medium format if I could afford it, for the look it gives. If you don't notice that look in an image that comes from FF then there's no harm in going for the best crop you can.
 
Yeah exactly, I do keep going round in circles. If it wasn’t for the lockdown I would’ve tried out the various ones I’m interested in.

Main question I have now is the FF vs APS-C, as I am coming from a 500D which is obviously far behind the A7Rii, A7iii and the Fuji XT-3. Given the mirrorless FF cameras are so light I feel that this would still be ok weight-wise when I’m travelling.

I just know that when I’m taking photos on the 500D I can’t stand the lack of DR and overall sharpness/image quality vs what’s on the market today - it’s not bad but I want to be able to do large prints and have a high quality camera that I can rely on for the years to come to give me the quality I want, especially for travel/holidays. I do enjoy using the 300mm end of my 70-300 for wildlife but it’s very limited use and I’m sure crop mode on a FF will allow me to make uk for any loss in ‘reach’ until I can afford a proper telephoto lens (although I don’t fancy paying £1k for rare or hobbyist personally).

I’m sure APS-C or FF can fill these needs of mine but if I went for APS-C and invested in good glass, then a few years later still long for better quality I’ll switch to FF....too much cost to do it twice. So might as well go FF, right? [emoji3]
The debate between APS-C and FF will probably rage forever, like Canon vs Nikon. The reality is, if you're critical of image quality and sharpness and find yourself either consciously or subconsciously scrutinising it then I would always recommend going FF (I'm discounting medium and large format as this is still more of a niche market and heavy).

New mirrorless FF cameras do give you the option of having a small wish lightweight setup, with the right lenses of course. As a result I personally wouldn't choose APS-C purely on a weight saving basis, if you want to save significant weight then I think you need to be looking at m4/3. However, large MP FF bodies do allow for a smaller setup and something I've take advantage of (weight saving is of big importance to me). For example, I can use the 100-400mm in crop mode and get 600mm reach and still have a 25mp image.

The Sony A7-III with 24-70mm f4, or 28-70mm would make a light travel setup imo. Or even a couple of primes.
 
The Sony A7-III with 24-70mm f4, or 28-70mm would make a light travel setup imo. Or even a couple of primes.

It was fantastic having my A7III and 35mm f2.8 on holiday last year for street work - so small it was hardly noticed by the locals (who could get grumpy with big cameras pointed at them).
 
Why do you regard DR as being the defining feature of a camera? Whether you go for apsc or ff you will still have the itch to upgrade... Especially as you invest more and learn more... And spend more time here.
Yep, best thing to do is buy the gear and then never come back on the forum again so you’re not tempted ;)

To be fair though I didn’t read it as though DR was the defining factor, just one of a few (y)
 
It was fantastic having my A7III and 35mm f2.8 on holiday last year for street work - so small it was hardly noticed by the locals (who could get grumpy with big cameras pointed at them).
Yeah the 35mm f2.8 is tiny. I still can’t decide whether I prefer 35mm or 28mm for general walkabout though, but when I do I’ll sell the other lens ;)
 
I’m sure APS-C or FF can fill these needs of mine but if I went for APS-C and invested in good glass, then a few years later still long for better quality I’ll switch to FF....too much cost to do it twice. So might as well go FF, right? [emoji3]

Just in case you do get a ff camera.

I grew up with film compacts and an SLR and when I got my first DSLR it was aps-c as there weren't any ff dslr's then. I seemed to adapt quite quickly and I used the aps-c dslr's for about 10 years and then I got a ff Canon 5D and it took me a while to adapt as I had to get used to using smaller apertures to get decent depth again and that lead me to having to watch the shutter speed and the ISO. So, if you do go ff you may take a while to get used to it.
 
Yep, best thing to do is buy the gear and then never come back on the forum again so you’re not tempted ;)

To be fair though I didn’t read it as though DR was the defining factor, just one of a few (y)

You need to go and have another read :)
 
It's so easy to go around in circles when making this kind of decision, i've done it myself many times in the past. As others have said there's not really any bad cameras out there these days.

One of the things that swayed me towards Fuji was the speed at which they turn around repairs, not that i've needed one so far but their customer service seems to get great reviews in the UK.

Another fan of the fuji service, dropped a 16-55 f2.8 a few years back and put a dent in the filter ring so you couldn't attach a filter, it was under warranty but it was obvious it had been dropped.I sent if off to Fuji asking what sort of price would it cost to get it repaired. Three days later I got it back and me first thought was that haven't looked at it.
But opened it and it been repaired free of charge.
 
I read it as lack of DR from the Canon was a part of the desire for something better.

In fact it’s both. The lack of DR in my
current gear does make me want to change, among other things. The desire for going FF instead of APS-C is driven partially by the improved DR available, particularly from the Sony A7(x) cameras
 
You need to go and have another read :)
Maybe I’ve missed a post but the one you quoted doesn’t mention DR, and the one I saw said he’s frustrated with the 550D’s DR, sharpness and all round IQ?
 
Why do you regard DR as being the defining feature of a camera? Whether you go for apsc or ff you will still have the itch to upgrade... Especially as you invest more and learn more... And spend more time here.

I don’t see it as the only defining factor but you’re right to an extent, I am focusing on that a lot on my mind. I just think it’s because the dynamic range of my current camera is so poor and it limits the quality of my shots among other things limiting them.

I don’t agree that I’ll always want to upgrade - as said I was happy with my current setup for a while and I feel I now need better quality gear to enable me to grow my potential (as a hobbyist/enthusiast). Given that I’m time-poor due to my job, I can’t see me needing more in the future for a long time (arguably I’d be happy with APS-C) as it will take me a while to continue to develop my potential as a photographer, unless my circumstances significantly change career-wise (not planning to).
 
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In fact it’s both. The lack of DR in my
current gear does make me want to change, among other things. The desire for going FF instead of APS-C is driven partially by the improved DR available, particularly from the Sony A7(x) cameras

As far as DR is concerned Sony APS-C sensors (i.e. ones used in Fuji, Nikon, Sony, Pentax) will give you as much DR as canon EOS R. Sony FF sensors inc. ones used in other brands (Nikon, Panasonic, Pentax) are all on the same level roughly speaking.
And m43 will beat RP lol (base DR only)

I don’t see it as the only defining factor but you’re right to an extent, I am focusing on that a lot on my mind. I just think it’s because the dynamic range of my current camera is so poor and it limits the quality of my shots among other things limiting them.

I don’t agree that I’ll always want to upgrade - as said I was happy with my current setup for a while and I feel I now need better quality gear to enable me to grow my potential (as a hobbyist/enthusiast). Given that I’m time-poor due to my job, I can’t see me needing more in the future for a long time (arguably I’d be happy with APS-C) as it will take me a while to continue to develop my potential as a photographer, unless my circumstances significantly change career-wise (not planning to).

It's a pretty important factor IMO. Top 3 on my list along with ISO performance and AF.

Since you seem like the person that won't be upgrading a lot it's best to buy the best possible body you afford at the moment with a couple for great lenses.
p.s. I mean best for you.
 
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As far as DR is concerned Sony APS-C sensors (i.e. ones used in Fuji, Nikon, Sony, Pentax) will give you as much DR as canon EOS R. Sony FF sensors inc. ones used in other brands (Nikon, Panasonic, Pentax) are all on the same level roughly speaking.
And m43 will beat RP lol (base DR only)
I misread this initially as I thought to myself that Sony sensors have better DR than the Canon EOS R, but then I see you said APS-C Sony sensors. Although there are a number of Sony APS-C sensors that beat the EOS R in DR, the D7200 springs to mind straight away, but then most Nikon APS-C have good DR.
 
I misread this initially as I thought to myself that Sony sensors have better DR than the Canon EOS R, but then I see you said APS-C Sony sensors. Although there are a number of Sony APS-C sensors that beat the EOS R in DR, the D7200 springs to mind straight away, but then most Nikon APS-C have good DR.
D7200 actually has a Toshiba sensor (this was before Sony bought Toshiba's sensor division)
 
A couple of questions about buying used:

Does shutter count matter on mirrorless cameras? I’ve seen that Wex put an estimate on their adverts, MPB don’t. Also I’m guessing the shutter count could be very low if someone has used the camera mainly for video.

If I buy one of the cheaper ‘new’ items on eBay (presumably grey) and the advert says all taxes and duties have been paid, if they have not been paid, will I be liable for paying it?

Happy to buy used but want to know what to look out for.
 
A couple of questions about buying used:

Does shutter count matter on mirrorless cameras? I’ve seen that Wex put an estimate on their adverts, MPB don’t. Also I’m guessing the shutter count could be very low if someone has used the camera mainly for video.

If I buy one of the cheaper ‘new’ items on eBay (presumably grey) and the advert says all taxes and duties have been paid, if they have not been paid, will I be liable for paying it?

Happy to buy used but want to know what to look out for.

yes it matters. but latest bodies are rated at 200K+ so it has a long life.

what they really mean is they are under valuing their shipments to sneak it into the country without attracting customs or duty i.e. they are smuggling it in.
if you do get caught you will have to pay it and depending on the seller they may or may not reimburse you. Some actually ship from a UK warehouse so you can tax dodge in those cases.
 
A couple of questions about buying used:

Does shutter count matter on mirrorless cameras? I’ve seen that Wex put an estimate on their adverts, MPB don’t. Also I’m guessing the shutter count could be very low if someone has used the camera mainly for video.

If I buy one of the cheaper ‘new’ items on eBay (presumably grey) and the advert says all taxes and duties have been paid, if they have not been paid, will I be liable for paying it?

Happy to buy used but want to know what to look out for.
As above, shutter count does matter and it should reflect in the price. Shutters are rated from around 100k upwards and if one has a lifespan of 500k you might not be concerned if the camera has 100k shutter count. BUT there are other things that wear as well as the shutter, and it gives an 'indication' of the wear of the overall camera.

Grey is grey no matter what, and the responsibility lies with the buyer. However, some importers reimburse you if you 'get caught'.
 
Thanks both.

I won’t buy grey as personally I’m
not comfortable with it, not within my values. Was just wondering if there was any legitimate way they could be offering the price. The one I saw on eBay was an A7iii + 24-70 for £1440 new - must be grey.

I’ve seen that used immaculate ones without a lens are going for £1330ish so I thought the ‘new’ ones at that price were suspicious

Hoping Sony do another summer cashback period this year but there aren’t even any rumours of one searching on Google News [emoji853]
 
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