vulcan to the sky

brianp55

brianp55

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just a heads up for anyone interested in a photo shoot at Robin Hood airport on the 31st . Vulcan to the sky are offering the chance to photograph the Vulcan to 10 photographers from 5pm-6pm at a £100 each on a first come first served basis. phone line open from 10am this coming Monday. 08451247285 this is to help keep the Vulcan flying until 2015. all the info can be found on Vulcan to the sky website, good luck if you try for a place. Brian. sorry if this has already been posted.
 
Give me £5 you can have as long as you want in our fully original (unlike theirs) Vulcan cockpit.

Granted its only the cockpit section and not the whole airframe, but its what's on the inside that counts!


Vulcan Cockpit by TCR4x4, on Flickr
 
It's priced for your die hard enthusiast, same as the places to witness the engines runs they've just sold for £200 a pop. The last 30 places sold out in 2.5hrs after release.
 
Sounds a lot, considering the Biggin Hill shoots are less then half that, go on for about 4 hours with total access to everything, have Spitfires and Hurricanes ground run and include fish and chips.

But as Pam says, the die hards no doubt will snap it up.
 
Clearly its priced so as to fund their shortfall this year and their 2015 programme to continue flying, nobody else can offer that, anybody buying something off VTTS knows that and is aware of what they are paying for.
Matt
 
Maybe if the directors didn't take home £70k a year, they could afford to keep it flying a bit longer without charging so much.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Maybe if the directors didn't take home £70k a year, they could afford to keep it flying a bit longer without charging so much.
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Is that fact documented anywhere? Eg charity commission site or companies house?
 
Its no secret that the CEO, Dr Robert Pleming is on £120k a year, as they are a charity you can download the management accounts and see for yourself.
 
srichards said:
Is that fact documented anywhere? Eg charity commission site or companies house?
Click to expand...

Yep.

Page 23 of this report, between £60-70k

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends48\0001101948_ac_20101031_e_c.pdf

That was 2010, the old director resigned after taking home that amount.

Page 24-25 of this document, for 2011/12. Current Director in excess of £70k for both years, other wages for 2012 totaled £608k, 2011 totalled £540k

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends48\0001101948_AC_20121031_E_C.pdf

Now you tell me how they can beg for money to keep the airframe going without batting an eyelid.
 
cw318is said:
Its no secret that the CEO, Dr Robert Pleming is on £120k a year, as they are a charity you can download the management accounts and see for yourself.
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But do you have any factual evidence of this? the 120k figure was being quoted as 'fact' five years ago but no one could actually point to evidence of its accuracy.

/edit from the accounts linked above his salary was ~65k and he hasn't worked for the trust for 4 years!!
 
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Steep said:
But do you have any factual evidence of this? the 120k figure was being quoted as 'fact' five years ago but no one could actually point to evidence of its accuracy. /edit from the accounts linked above his salary was ~65k and he hasn't worked for the trust for 4 years!!
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Did you not see the 2011/2012 accounts with a total wages bill of over £600k with one director receiving over £70k?
 
Yes I did Tom but it wasn't Dr Robert Pleming. A total wage bill of 600k with 22 employees would give most of them less than 20k each, assuming they are full time and don't have other jobs that's not a lot of money for skilled workers.
 
Tom you seem to constantly bring up their salaries, they have managed to get a military aircraft registered as a private plane, funded by lottery grants and individual donations where no-one else had managed this' do you not think they deserve to be well rewarded for the joy they bring to thousands of people? Other people earn a lot more for a lot less. I have donated to the charity and don't resent one penny nor do I suspect do any others that donate. Do you have some sort of agenda?
 
MatBin said:
Tom you seem to constantly bring up their salaries, they have managed to get a military aircraft registered as a private plane, funded by lottery grants and individual donations where no-one else had managed this' do you not think they deserve to be well rewarded for the joy they bring to thousands of people? Other people earn a lot more for a lot less. I have donated to the charity and don't resent one penny nor do I suspect do any others that donate. Do you have some sort of agenda?
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I expect Tom as I myself feel that some charity employees salaries are excessive, I've no real issue with employing people but at the same time is comes across very poorly when a charity pleads poverty but maintains some impressive salaries...VTTS is also very good with its practice/flair for the dramatic, I remember last year them stating that they couldn't justify raising a lot more money to allow another 18 months of flying after the end of the 2013 season...after putting out that they would ground at the end of the next season they received a massive surge in donations...
 
Tin triangle - breaking hearts and dividing opinions nationwide since 2007!

Whilst I enjoy seeing it in the air, the past displays being so pedestrian in the hands of that Martin Withers, they have tainted it - that and as it costs so much to book a lot of the other display acts are missing out (Red Star Rebels, Sea Vixen to name but two). I also detest the constant "donate or we scrap it" threats and the fact that everything is always "11th hour" - like stringing the general public and the media along that 2013 would be the last flying year, then getting most of the way through and saying actually we're good till 2015 - give us more money.

B-17 Preservation operate a complex four engine type with substantial running costs as well, but yet Elly Sallingboe does not feel the need to have a management team or mailshot me and thousands of others twice a month begging for money.

There is a lot of positive stuff done by VTTS and TVOC, but also there is a lot of additional spend which maybe isn't necessary and they have always been quite top heavy on management. But anyway, regardless of the facts you will always have the hardcore vulcanists who will defend it and the actions of VTTS to the hills so, meh.
 
MatBin said:
Tom you seem to constantly bring up their salaries, they have managed to get a military aircraft registered as a private plane, funded by lottery grants and individual donations where no-one else had managed this' do you not think they deserve to be well rewarded for the joy they bring to thousands of people? Other people earn a lot more for a lot less. I have donated to the charity and don't resent one penny nor do I suspect do any others that donate. Do you have some sort of agenda?
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Yes I have an agenda. I've spent the last 20 years of my life working to the bone to restore classic aircraft as have the other handful of volunteers who work for us. We've been paid nothing and asked for nothing.

The museum has been refused lottery funding on 3 occasions at massive cost to ourselves. If it wasn't for our heritage we are trying to preserve, the Vulcan and any other British jet wouldn't exist. No one seems bothered by the fact the jet engine was invented in our backyard and all that history has been destroyed, except for the small amount we have managed to salvage and preserve.

Everything we have has been hard fought for, and all the money raised has been by hard work on the ground, attending shows and other fundraising activities. A small group of businesses in the local area have been very supportive over the years and have given generously, as have a handful of ex GAC employes, leaving sums in their wills to help maintain the aircraft we have.
It's taken 20 years to get enough money together to build a permanent hangar to house our collection of vintage and important airframes. For the last 10 years, we haven't had a building to store our aircraft in at all!

We don't pay anyone 70k a year, we don't have a fleet of BMW's, we allow all our volunteers full access to the exhibits, we don't send out letters begging for more money after people have graciously donated, we don't bend the truth in order to make it seem like we are tight on funds and we don't charge people extortionate amounts of money to photograph stuff.

Excuse me if I find the actions and salaries of the VTTS repulsive, but its something very close to my heart and has been a part of my life longer than it hasn't.

It's not just me that thinks this way, many ex VTTS members have come to us as they donated large sums, but were not allowed within 10 foot of the aircraft, so they had to come sit in ours instead. We have also had several of their members join us as volunteers and ditch the VTTS due to the high level of mistrust in the group.
 
If anyone wants to photograph a static Vulcan I would have to suggest the one at Wellesbourne. I turned up there this morning and despite everyone being hard at work on various jobs they still found someone to give me (for a small donation) a very good cockpit tour and no problem with taking a few shots.

Whilst I was there a photography group turned up who had pre-booked and I suspect had paid substantially less than £100/head. If there are enough takers I'm sure it would be easy enough to set up a TP visit.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Yes I have an agenda. I've spent the last 20 years of my life working to the bone to restore classic aircraft as have the other handful of volunteers who work for us. We've been paid nothing and asked for nothing.

The museum has been refused lottery funding on 3 occasions at massive cost to ourselves. If it wasn't for our heritage we are trying to preserve, the Vulcan and any other British jet wouldn't exist. No one seems bothered by the fact the jet engine was invented in our backyard and all that history has been destroyed, except for the small amount we have managed to salvage and preserve.

Everything we have has been hard fought for, and all the money raised has been by hard work on the ground, attending shows and other fundraising activities. A small group of businesses in the local area have been very supportive over the years and have given generously, as have a handful of ex GAC employes, leaving sums in their wills to help maintain the aircraft we have.
It's taken 20 years to get enough money together to build a permanent hangar to house our collection of vintage and important airframes. For the last 10 years, we haven't had a building to store our aircraft in at all!

We don't pay anyone 70k a year, we don't have a fleet of BMW's, we allow all our volunteers full access to the exhibits, we don't send out letters begging for more money after people have graciously donated, we don't bend the truth in order to make it seem like we are tight on funds and we don't charge people extortionate amounts of money to photograph stuff.

Excuse me if I find the actions and salaries of the VTTS repulsive, but its something very close to my heart and has been a part of my life longer than it hasn't.

It's not just me that thinks this way, many ex VTTS members have come to us as they donated large sums, but were not allowed within 10 foot of the aircraft, so they had to come sit in ours instead. We have also had several of their members join us as volunteers and ditch the VTTS due to the high level of mistrust in the group.
Click to expand...

Well said! I've been a volunteer with several charities over the years, and I've never been paid a penny wages. But sadly some of those charities used to spend millions on 'overheads' that included new company cars every year, the latest phones, all the bills for the executives homes etc crazy!
It's time charities were limited on the amount they can spend on admin wages and so on.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Yes I have an agenda. I've spent the last 20 years of my life working to the bone to restore classic aircraft as have the other handful of volunteers who work for us. We've been paid nothing and asked for nothing.

The museum has been refused lottery funding on 3 occasions at massive cost to ourselves. If it wasn't for our heritage we are trying to preserve, the Vulcan and any other British jet wouldn't exist. No one seems bothered by the fact the jet engine was invented in our backyard and all that history has been destroyed, except for the small amount we have managed to salvage and preserve.

Everything we have has been hard fought for, and all the money raised has been by hard work on the ground, attending shows and other fundraising activities. A small group of businesses in the local area have been very supportive over the years and have given generously, as have a handful of ex GAC employes, leaving sums in their wills to help maintain the aircraft we have.
It's taken 20 years to get enough money together to build a permanent hangar to house our collection of vintage and important airframes. For the last 10 years, we haven't had a building to store our aircraft in at all!

We don't pay anyone 70k a year, we don't have a fleet of BMW's, we allow all our volunteers full access to the exhibits, we don't send out letters begging for more money after people have graciously donated, we don't bend the truth in order to make it seem like we are tight on funds and we don't charge people extortionate amounts of money to photograph stuff.

Excuse me if I find the actions and salaries of the VTTS repulsive, but its something very close to my heart and has been a part of my life longer than it hasn't.

It's not just me that thinks this way, many ex VTTS members have come to us as they donated large sums, but were not allowed within 10 foot of the aircraft, so they had to come sit in ours instead. We have also had several of their members join us as volunteers and ditch the VTTS due to the high level of mistrust in the group.
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Fantastic post Tom :clap:

PS

I'm not just saying that because I have a wet patch above my Disco's sun visor that I'm about to ask you about ;)
 
TCR4x4 said:
Yes I have an agenda. I've spent the last 20 years of my life working to the bone to restore classic aircraft as have the other handful of volunteers who work for us. We've been paid nothing and asked for nothing.

The museum has been refused lottery funding on 3 occasions at massive cost to ourselves. If it wasn't for our heritage we are trying to preserve, the Vulcan and any other British jet wouldn't exist. No one seems bothered by the fact the jet engine was invented in our backyard and all that history has been destroyed, except for the small amount we have managed to salvage and preserve.

Everything we have has been hard fought for, and all the money raised has been by hard work on the ground, attending shows and other fundraising activities. A small group of businesses in the local area have been very supportive over the years and have given generously, as have a handful of ex GAC employes, leaving sums in their wills to help maintain the aircraft we have.
It's taken 20 years to get enough money together to build a permanent hangar to house our collection of vintage and important airframes. For the last 10 years, we haven't had a building to store our aircraft in at all!

We don't pay anyone 70k a year, we don't have a fleet of BMW's, we allow all our volunteers full access to the exhibits, we don't send out letters begging for more money after people have graciously donated, we don't bend the truth in order to make it seem like we are tight on funds and we don't charge people extortionate amounts of money to photograph stuff.

Excuse me if I find the actions and salaries of the VTTS repulsive, but its something very close to my heart and has been a part of my life longer than it hasn't.

It's not just me that thinks this way, many ex VTTS members have come to us as they donated large sums, but were not allowed within 10 foot of the aircraft, so they had to come sit in ours instead. We have also had several of their members join us as volunteers and ditch the VTTS due to the high level of mistrust in the group.
Click to expand...

Put that way I can understand your view, but you can't deny that vtts have managed to get a Vulcan airborne and I doubt the funds they have raised would have been diverted from anyone else. I can appreciate how you feel they have feathered their own nest whilst others get no financial reward at all but you can at least claim the moral high ground in doing it all for the purest of reasons.
 
Many seem to forget that the personnel who operate 558 do so full time [other than the aircrew] - they have to be to comply with the CAA rules on operating a complex a/c. That means they have to be paid- just like many on here they have mortgages to pay and families to feed too. It's also worth pointing out Dr P. gave up his employment and worked for 3 years gratis to cut through the red tape that everybody said would stop the return to flight of the only complex Permit to Fly a/c.

And by the way the fleet of cars they had/have are part of a sponsorship agreements not just luxury cars they swan about in.

It's simply real - if you want to see 558 fly support and donate - if you don't fine.

XM655 at Wellesbourne is a brilliant a/c and the crew that look after her are so accommodating well worth supporting.
 
dinners said:
Fantastic post Tom :clap: PS I'm not just saying that because I have a wet patch above my Disco's sun visor that I'm about to ask you about ;)
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Oh dear, well fire away, there is a very long list of possible culprits!
 
I too understand your feelings but I also doubt very much that a Vulcan would ever have been made to fly again purely by the efforts of volunteers.
 
Im not saying people shouldnt be paid..

Im saying, they shouldnt be paid £70k a year, then plead poverty.

I know for a fact that many people who donated generously were then harrased to give more and made to feel guilty if they didnt, or couldnt.

That is no way to treat people.
 
Going back to the subject I suspect the high cost is due tot he fact that they will obviously be allowing people airside at a live airport. This will only be allowed in small numbers and therefore high cost per head.

I personally don't think it's worth it. Some people will!

On that note why don't airshows such as RIAT or Waddington organise nightshoots? Would be amazing given the diversity of A/C they accumulate on static. A pretty penny could be made!
 
Mainly because it would all go in extra manpower and security. The 'workers' are generally in at 5 on an air show day. I doubt they would want to work until midnight then repeat it if it's a 2 day show, remember it doesn't get dark until gone 10 pm in the summer.
 
RIAT do have a nightshoot, its in the Mach 3 package and happens on the Thursday night but as its in July it doesn't get dark until about 10. Biggin Hill and Northolt are both live airports, Biggin Hill sets a maximum number of 50 purely because the pan is so small and Northolt as you know yourself attracts 250+
 
Steep said:
I too understand your feelings but I also doubt very much that a Vulcan would ever have been made to fly again purely by the efforts of volunteers.
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Sally B manages it. The only exception are the engineers who legally have to be paid.
 
cw318is said:
RIAT do have a nightshoot, its in the Mach 3 package and happens on the Thursday night but as its in July it doesn't get dark until about 10. Biggin Hill and Northolt are both live airports, Biggin Hill sets a maximum number of 50 purely because the pan is so small and Northolt as you know yourself attracts 250+
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Phwoar at £200!!

Fair point. Interesting to see what photos come out of this nightshoot at VTTS.
 
cw318is said:
Sally B manages it. The only exception are the engineers who legally have to be paid.
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With respect it's not exactly as complex a plane as a Vulcan. Cutting edge technology at the time which was hardly as reliable as a modern mobile phone and still she flies (occassionaly :) )
 
MatBin said:
With respect it's not exactly as complex a plane as a Vulcan. Cutting edge technology at the time which was hardly as reliable as a modern mobile phone and still she flies (occassionaly :) )
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Myth. The Vulcan was originally designed 10 years after the B-17 and most of the complex elements such as the original nav, warfare and sensor suite was removed during the rebuild so it didn't have to be certified.

4 engines, multi crew, complex fuel and complex hydraulic systems, both operate in the same transport category and require the same insurance liability, in this day and age they are not too dissimilar.

Plus, Sally B flies as a tribute to 47,000+, aside from one mission where one bomb hit a runway several thousand miles away what did the Vulcan actually do in service?
 
The way 558 is operated is all down to the fact the CAA categorised it as 'complex' even tho' some systems were removed - I think the powered flying controls dictate a lot of it. They are still very hands on with who flys it and how it is worked on. All the engineers had to go through a rigorous training course despite many on them working on Vulcans in service.

It simply can not be done on a part time volunteer basis such as the way JPs can be operated. Therefore because you have a full time work force you need admin, you need management etc, etc.
 
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cw318is said:
aside from one mission where one bomb hit a runway several thousand miles away what did the Vulcan actually do in service?
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Dropped a few more bombs on different raids to the Falklands islands - a total of five raids I believe. So not just one bomb.
 
cw318is said:
Myth. The Vulcan was originally designed 10 years after the B-17 and most of the complex elements such as the original nav, warfare and sensor suite was removed during the rebuild so it didn't have to be certified.

4 engines, multi crew, complex fuel and complex hydraulic systems, both operate in the same transport category and require the same insurance liability, in this day and age they are not too dissimilar.

Plus, Sally B flies as a tribute to 47,000+, aside from one mission where one bomb hit a runway several thousand miles away what did the Vulcan actually do in service?
Click to expand...
That's a bit like saying what have the Polaris missiles done? Different times different threats different reason to exist. The Vulcan (and her fuel tankers) flew the longest flight of any bomber ever, but that's hardly the point, what is the point and answering Tom's original post is that a lot of people have put their hands in their pockets and been happy with doing so. Lots of people have put a lot of effort into keeping other planes flying, without as much financial input and well done to them too, it's not a competition there is room in the world for both methods and long may they ALL continue to provide aircraft for us to admire, just a shame they aren't Govt funded of course.
Matt
 
So Tom, would Save the Children also incur your wrath too?
They pay much more to their CEO, don't tend to let people who donate near the children they pay for and also drive very expensive cars. I understand though, the VTTS are donated, whereas STC pay for theirs.

Like it or not, the Vulcan is flying and that is undoubtadly as a direct result of employing their CEO. Clearly, it is popular with a lot of people or it wouldn't be flying.

Personally, I have no issue with getting letters from them asking for more. Just as most people who donate to Save the Children don't either. It's a charity, its how it works!

I do get your point over struggling to pay for restoration, but thats the nature of the beast. There's no point in attacking someone else because they were successful where you weren't, it's the system that is at fault for refusing you, not for giving to them.


CW318is

On the contrary, Sally B does solicit for money, and if you want dull and tedious, watch one of it's displays! But it's horses for courses, I'd not worry one iota if Sally B was grounded, but some people would not share my joy in that.

What did the Vulcan do? I seem to recall, living on a station with 2 squadrons of them that they were rather keen on NOT doing what they were designed for, something it succeeded in. Yes, one bomb on a runway, that stopped it being used for fast jets. Not to mention at least one Shrike attack that put pay to at least some SAM activity, and may well have saved a few Bionic Budgie pilots in the process.

The B17 was an american aircraft, flown predominantly by US crews. If they want to commemorate it, fine, but I certainly wouldn't pay for it.
 
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I actually have little interest in this plane - but save the children are helping endangered children this group are flying an old plane which, lets be frank is quite frivolous in comparison. I think that is a bit of a silly comparison personally.

FYI i'm all for keeping these things going but put it in perspective..
 
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